Does it have to be this way?

[uncover]

......
ADDED: I just researched Frank Gerbode, who got TIR and metapsychology popular again. According to various Google articles, Dr. Frank Gerbode has a Stanford degree and is a full-fledged psychiatrist with full accredited internship. He does not credit scientology for TIR or for re-popularizing the concepts of metapsychology, but rather claims he traced both 'back to their origins' (Freud). He also claims to be an ex-scn. I'd say he's done well for himself. TIR is widely accepted in the fields of psychology and psychiatry for PTSD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metapsychology

I think when phenomanon wrote "Sarge", she ment Dr. Frank A. Gerbode, known as "Sarge":
https://books.google.at/books?id=aW...AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=Sarge Gerbode TIR&f=false

To his background in Co$:
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/gerbode1.html

.....
Gerbode was for many years a Scientologist, and at one time ran the Palo Alto, California Mission of Scientology. He broke from the Church of Scientology in 1982. He later developed TIR, starting from Dianetics and working back to its origins.
.....

Hey, what a surprise.... Dianetics has origins.....

And there is even a connection to David Mayo:
http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/13/the-saga-of-david-mayo-scientologys-banished-tech-wizard/

Mayo had moved to the Institute for Research into Metapsychology, run by psychiatrist Frank Gerbode (the only psychiatrist in Scientology!).

When Mayo was hit with his first lawsuit, his legal team consulted me, and I recommended that they ask for documents that the cult had offered in the claim for the tax exemption for the Church of Spiritual Technology. I obtained the necessary documents from the court in DC. As predicted, Scientology claimed that they did not have the documents, which we then presented, showing that the cult had abused the legal discovery process. The suit was dismissed and the cult was ordered to pay $2.4 million in costs to Mayo’s lawyers - which profited Mayo not at all (and me not much - I charged $1,000 for my involvement.)

The IRM was sued for plagiarism a few years later. Gerbode had removed all references to Hubbard from his textbook about “metapsychology” so that the American Psychological Association would validate his course as part of training in psychology. The cult found out and accused him of plagiarism. Gerbode sued. Mayo had left the IRM by this time. I showed over 100 incidences of plagiarism in Hubbard’s own work, but Gerbode had lost his nerve and met with Miscavige to settle. Rumour has it that Gerbode gave some $4 million in IOUs from Mayo (for yet more legal costs) to Miscavige, so bankrupting Mayo.

I consulted to both cases.
.....

 

[Terril park]

TIR and Meta are very close to scn, Sheila. TIR is R3R ( Dianetic procedure) VERBATIM. I didn't stay at Sarge's Seminar to hear about his further Bridge that is called Metawhatever. I have No interest in scn under a different name.
Frankie and Mary Freedman were in Mayo's group, and are still scn'ists, as far as i know. I can't think of anyone else.

They still are.

 

[Terril park]

R3R wasn't new or Hubbard's anyway - it was only an imitation of Freudian psychoanalysis in the first place, with rote questions instead of personalized ones. The only actual differences Hubbard made to it was the addition of searching for prenatal memories (which had already been debunked by Freud's time, more so now - as permanent memories don't form until at least the age of 2, usually 3 years), asking for E/S before this lifetime and in NED, asking for the confusion and postulate. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that TIR does not include the changes Hubbard made of asking for prenatals, E/S before this lifetime, confusion or postulate off. Those were Hub's scn additions,and to the best of my knowledge (Terril and I went through the TIR thing before) they are not there. The format doesn't really matter, as it basically existed in psychology before Hubbard. As usual, he fraudulently put his name to others' work and just reworded it with a few changes.

In Freud's time it was tedious. It still is. Limited to PTSD, though, it has its uses, and TIR is limited to PTSD.

Metapsychology is not Sarge's or any ex's invention, either. It is part of the field of psychoanalytic theory. Again, Freud, origin 1868. If Sarge is trying to make scn into Metapsychology, he has colossal misunderstandings. From Merrian-Webster Dictionary (L Ron's favorite, lol):



ADDED: I just researched Frank Gerbode, who got TIR and metapsychology popular again. According to various Google articles, Dr. Frank Gerbode has a Stanford degree and is a full-fledged psychiatrist with full accredited internship. He does not credit scientology for TIR or for re-popularizing the concepts of metapsychology, but rather claims he traced both 'back to their origins' (Freud). He also claims to be an ex-scn. I'd say he's done well for himself. TIR is widely accepted in the fields of psychology and psychiatry for PTSD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metapsychology

He does credit Scn in his book.

 

[Veda]

I think when phenomanon wrote "Sarge", she ment Dr. Frank A. Gerbode, known as "Sarge":
https://books.google.at/books?id=aW...AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=Sarge Gerbode TIR&f=false

To his background in Co$:
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/gerbode1.html

Hey, what a surprise.... Dianetics has origins.....

And there is even a connection to David Mayo:
http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/13/the-saga-of-david-mayo-scientologys-banished-tech-wizard/

"...

​

Gerbode gave 4 million $ in IOUs from Mayo (for yet more legal costs) to Miscavige, so bankrupting Mayo."


My understanding is that Gerbode sold the IOUs to Miscavige. The wealthy Gerbode had funded David Mayo's battle with Scientology and, then, betrayed David Mayo, effectively crushing him.

Miscavige was delighted and, it seems, that Gerbode's warmed over R3R (1968 Dianetics) and warmed over versions of other Scientology auditing procedures, per a secret agreement between Miscavige and Gerbode, are, these days, tolerated by Scientology. There seems to be an unholy "peace" between Metapsychology and Scientology at this point, but Metapsychology, for those who know of these dirty dealings, has a well deserved taint.

 

[JustSheila]

Wow!

Unbelievable! Backstabbing and backstabbing and more...

Gerbode is all buddy with David Mayo, then bankrupts him? While Gerbode is in court, he discredits scn entirely, saying this is from Freudian roots, acts all buddy buddy to David Mayo, then bankrupts David Mayo, selling his debts right back to David Miscavige, the turns around and acknowledges scn in a book after all of that?

I mean ? What an ASSHOLE!

Can I add just one more fact to the drama which has apparently been all around Frank Gerbode since decades, that he was also good friends with another shitstorm lightning rod who went on and on about his supposed virtues?

 

[uncover]

Surprised ? This is the way how Hubbardism works..... I mean, they have to clear a planet.

The Mayo-Gerbode-Saga was well known in the "independent field" 25 years ago.

Btw, there is an old saying:
"When money enters the game, the best friendship comes to an end."

 

[JustSheila]

Despite all the shitstorm, there is a bright side to this.

DM has basically lost any claims to any originality of Dianetics.

TIR is a tiny player in the PTSD field - there are so many research projects that have been done with a very similar system, all with different names, all by reputable researchers and psychiatrists. I even participated in one briefly a couple of years ago. That one had a very specific public (those who had ONE major traumatic incident only in their lives, so I didn't qualify past the first session interview, but at least I learned all about it), did not use a rote patter like Dn, combined with exercise and group counseling, and one year into its research, claimed every participant stably improved with checkups at 1 wk, 1 mo, 3 mos and 6 mos.

That's just ONE that got an idea from TIR - and there are dozens more, all by reputable institutions and psychiatrists.

Frank Gerbode's heyday may not be completely over yet, but Dn is completely gone, replaced and improved, within its little niche in specific PTSD cases, and none of the psychiatric methods that springboarded from that revival of a Freudian psychoanalytical technique even mention TIR or Dianetics.

DM's rage and evil backstabbing Mayo through Gerbode cost COS Dianetics - the only thing with any solid science behind it. So in a way, David Mayo still won. Time changed the circumstances and ideas and research marched right past and left the backstabbing former 'winners' in the dust.
I highly doubt anyone would consider it 'The Modern Science of Mental Health' ever again.

 

[Gib]

I think when phenomanon wrote "Sarge", she ment Dr. Frank A. Gerbode, known as "Sarge":
https://books.google.at/books?id=aW...AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=Sarge Gerbode TIR&f=false

To his background in Co$:
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/gerbode1.html

Hey, what a surprise.... Dianetics has origins.....

And there is even a connection to David Mayo:
http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/13/the-saga-of-david-mayo-scientologys-banished-tech-wizard/

in reviewing what Jon says from his talk with Mayo, about "misconceptions"

http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/13/the-saga-of-david-mayo-scientologys-banished-tech-wizard/

"As to the NOTs material, Mayo has said that he audited Hubbard on “misconceptions,” not on Body Thetans. When Hubbard had recovered somewhat, he engaged in his usual “research” method — he dictated bulletins to Mayo which had little bearing on the approach that Mayo had used. A series of over fifty bulletins were collected together. Once Mayo was ostracised, it was bruited about that those of us who had received OT V had been subjected to suppressive alterations of the true Tech. No offer was made to repair the damage. At least without paying $150 an hour for the privilege. Close scrutiny of the bulletins that put this “suppression” right shows that the text is identical, save that David Mayo’s name has been removed from them.Mayo was already equivocal about the “Tech” before he left. In particular, he was concerned about OT III, and the OT levels in general. He felt that by letting people continue up the Bridge, they too would come to realize that this material was bogus. By the time Mayo left the Institute for Research into Metapsychology in Palo Alto in 1988, he had abandoned the OT levels altogether. He has also published his critique of New Era Dianetics, giving cogent reasons for its failure to achieve the promises made for it by Scientology."

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misconception

Even Hubbard at the end of his life, told Sarge " I failed". Misconception, you got that that right RON, and we got you figured out, and thanks David Mayo.

 

[programmer_guy]

in reviewing what Jon says from his talk with Mayo, about "misconceptions"

http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/13/the-saga-of-david-mayo-scientologys-banished-tech-wizard/

<snip>

So, Mayo just wanted them to have something like "the clear cognition" = "I just made up this stuff in my own mind". :confused2:

And if they never get that cog then they just go down a path of more and more delusion.
(Eventually, a person might strip off their clothing and walk down a street naked.)

 

[Dulloldfart]

It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that TIR does not include the changes Hubbard made of asking for prenatals, E/S before this lifetime, confusion or postulate off.

I just looked in the official TIR book (Traumatic Incident Reduction [TIR] by Gerald D. French and Chrys J. Harris).

The facilitator (auditor) asks for earlier similar as needed per the usual procedure. He will take whatever comes up, per the usual procedures including non-evaluation for the client. If it happens to be pre-natal or past life, no problem, per the usual procedure. I don't see any questions specifying a past life, but there again, there aren't in regular R3R or NED (dunno about some "past life remedy," but such a specific rundown is additional, not part of the regular procedure for R3R or NED either).

There is no mandatory asking for a postulate off, and it is not required for an EP. But asking for one is not forbidden:

If the facilitator is unsure whether or not an incident is discharged, ask one or both of the following additional questions:

• How does the incident seem to you now?
• Did you make a decision at the time of the incident?

A positive answer to either of these questions, such as "It seems pretty uninteresting" . . . "Not much there anymore; I guess I just did what I did" . . . "There's nothing more to it"... <snip> ... will generally be accompanied by [positive indicators] and will then signal a valid end point.​

Sheila -- I don't know what you are referring to with regard to "confusion." It is part of the FPRD procedure, but If it's part of R3R or NED I've forgotten about it.

Paul

 

[JustSheila]

So, Mayo just wanted them to have something like "the clear cognition" = "I just made up this stuff in my own mind". :confused2:

And if they never get that cog then they just go down a path of more and more delusion.
(Eventually, a person might strip off their clothing and walk down a street naked.)

He was in the SO since he was a young man and cut off from RL for many years, PG. He started the Centers immediately upon being Declared. I'm sure it took him a while to peel the onion - he wouldn't have dedicated his life to the SO if he wasn't a believer. Most of that time he wasn't living in any sort of luxury. Lost his teeth on the Running Program. Constantly dealing with L Ron's explosive personality. Punished, busted, elevated, punished busted.. he went through his share of heat, good times and bad, like nearly every other SO member.

The fact nearly all his thousands of followers left scientology completely is the best evidence that David Mayo shared what he learned with them as he learned it. From reports, it was a relaxed environment and not the least bit authoritarian. He had a few good years where he earned a lot of money and people were happy, but he had a whole lot of bad years being terrorized by the cult and OSA.

David Mayo was a nice guy and still is. He was never a monster, in or out of the cult. These days that's the only yardstick I have for judging other SO Members - did they turn into monsters while they were in? If so, did they genuinely change or did they continue to be monsters when they were out? How much did they try to stand up to abuse while in? How much while out?

David Mayo aimed for a gentle scientology his entire time in and when he had the centers. We didn't have the Internet then and all the info about brainwashing. He was a trouper, one of the first to really hurt COS in a big way. He has my highest respect and genuine gratitude for going the full yards against the cult and for taking the time to speak with us here on ESMB as much as he could. He caused the biggest schism in COS they had ever known. Thank you, David.

 

[JustSheila]

I just looked in the official TIR book (Traumatic Incident Reduction [TIR] by Gerald D. French and Chrys J. Harris).

The facilitator (auditor) asks for earlier similar as needed per the usual procedure. He will take whatever comes up, per the usual procedures including non-evaluation for the client. If it happens to be pre-natal or past life, no problem, per the usual procedure. I don't see any questions specifying a past life, but there again, there aren't in regular R3R or NED (dunno about some "past life remedy," but such a specific rundown is additional, not part of the regular procedure for R3R or NED either).

There is no mandatory asking for a postulate off, and it is not required for an EP. But asking for one is not forbidden:

If the facilitator is unsure whether or not an incident is discharged, ask one or both of the following additional questions:

• How does the incident seem to you now?
• Did you make a decision at the time of the incident?

A positive answer to either of these questions, such as "It seems pretty uninteresting" . . . "Not much there anymore; I guess I just did what I did" . . . "There's nothing more to it"... <snip> ... will generally be accompanied by [positive indicators] and will then signal a valid end point.​

Sheila -- I don't know what you are referring to with regard to "confusion." It is part of the FPRD procedure, but If it's part of R3R or NED I've forgotten about it.

Paul

That's interesting. Thanks, Paul. You're right, I got the confusion part mixed up with FPRD. It's not part of R3R. Of course.

I like that TIR doesn't insist on erasure as an EP, just looks for good indicators. If E/S brings up prenatals or past lives, it is in the realm of psychology and psychiatry now and these are not considered reliable memories in those fields, so would be strictly from the client's own subjective religious, spiritual or other concepts and not later referred to as factual. That's alright. Plus the client's folders would be treated with confidentiality protected by the psychiatrist's own licensing codes.

Without scientology definitions, concepts and wordclearing, a person would not be led by the nose and steered into those concepts. Did you see any of that on TIR? Any mandatory study prior to starting it? Gerbode and any other professionals involved would be held accountable and liable for loss of licensure, status and more if there is evidence of any clients being fed or led to particular answers. Psychiatrists have lost their licenses and practices for this sort of thing before. Remember the book, 'Sybil?' Famous case where that happened, the whole thing was a hoax; the client was living at the psychiatrist's house and fed the answers.

I'm tickled as hell that Dianetics has been given back to the realm of Psychology and Psychiatry as a Freudian therapeutic technique for a particular purpose. It means clinical research and trials, peer reviews and other studies by universities and hospitals, and nobody has to ever acknowledge Hubbard, TIR or Dianetics. It means so many different spinoffs and evaluations by competent professionals. It means it belongs to society again, and since it is relegated to just one small little section of one tiny area of psychology (PTSD), there is no safer place for it.

It's a shame Gerbode went about it the way he did, selling out David Mayo, switching loyalties several times, backstabbing and financially ruining him to get DM to give him this in exchange for DM's getting the opportunity to take out his full rage and hunger to crush David Mayo. Seriously, DM just gave Dianetics away to psychiatry. Sure, it belonged there in the first place except for the tweaks Hubbard or others did, but that's still a shocker. DM sealed the fate of Dianetics to quickly become completely obsolete to everyone.

Gerbode claiming it was all based on Freud, etc. in court and then denying this out of court in his book and saying it was based on scientology isn't going to help his reputation a bit, either. It just makes him sound unreliable and a bit tainted by personal beliefs.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Without scientology definitions, concepts and wordclearing, a person would not be led by the nose and steered into those concepts. Did you see any of that on TIR? Any mandatory study prior to starting it?

At a brief look, it seems that a prospective facilitator can get it all from the book, although it is recommended to attend a workshop delivered by the authors or others. I wouldn't disagree with that approach in principle, although I don't know if attendees would get fed gratuitous Scn concepts under the table, so to speak. I assume most TIR exponents are ex-Scios of one kind or another. I have no idea about the professional requirements if a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist wished to deliver TIR as part of his practice.

Paul

 

[JustSheila]

At a brief look, it seems that a prospective facilitator can get it all from the book, although it is recommended to attend a workshop delivered by the authors or others. I wouldn't disagree with that approach in principle, although I don't know if attendees would get fed gratuitous Scn concepts under the table, so to speak. I assume most TIR exponents are ex-Scios of one kind or another. I have no idea about the professional requirements if a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist wished to deliver TIR as part of his practice.

Paul

Thanks, Paul.

I wouldn't assume most TIR exponents are ex-Scios. Gerbode is a licensed psychiatrist. Licensed psychologists and psychiatrists are already delivering it (though not all are psychologists or psychiatrists). Check out this website:http://www.tir.org/practitioners/northam.html

 

[Dulloldfart]

Thanks, Paul.

I wouldn't assume most TIR exponents are ex-Scios. Gerbode is a licensed psychiatrist. Licensed psychologists and psychiatrists are already delivering it (though not all are psychologists or psychiatrists). Check out this website:http://www.tir.org/practitioners/northam.html

Fair enough. I cross-checked half a dozen of the practitioners listed there with the truthaboutscientology.com lists and came up with nothing. I assume they didn't all change their names specially!

Paul

 

[George Layton]

Yes it does - it was a workable idea - so workable that they were attacked mercilessly by the C of S until they were disbanded.

The C of S is a monopoly. It like any other, seeks to eliminate or buy out any form of competition, so it has the whole field to itself. Hence it's attacks on any squirrel group, and to some degree, the mission system.

The public that frequented the missions only knew what the Scientology that was doled out as Scientology. This is much the same scenario. going on in big time Scientology - the public now knows it as a donation based fund raising organization with such tentacles as the IAS, Ideal Org programs, planetary disem etc. They don't know the Scientology as I knew it in the 60's, 70's and early 80's as an organization bent on delivering auditing and training.

If it went back to that base, that mind set, wouldn't it flourish? When all the heavy reging, the price increases, the enforced retraining under gat, the forced purchase of the basics became scientology, they slit their own throats. The public stayed away. If you take all that away, and focused on tech delivery, and not fund raising, why wouldn't it flourish? He did have some tasty cheese to bait the trap.

I am not denying Hubbard was all about squeezing the public for all the cash he could get his hands on, but he did try to deliver his product. He also built up a massive liability in undelivered services. Who was it that revised the refund policy? Hubbard or Miscavage? It effectively slashed the throat of that liability, and the IAS dono form, broke the knees of getting refunds from them.

That was a big early sales point - you could get your money back. It was a part of the IRS parley, and it was a dead duck before the ink was dry on the paper. It was a red herring that they dragged in front of them to appear benevolent.

I feel that way about Trump - he will say anything to get elected. You don't know what he stands for, since he panders to everybody. You only know he wants to get elected. Nothing else is known. Scientology is built on that same model. You don't know what it really is, you just see this rhetoric that appeals to the idealistic, and the gullible. That will work forever, because he hit his mark dead on.

If you got off the current toxic policies, and delivered the basic stuff, why wouldn't that work as a business model?

Mimsey

Why bring it back? To make money? It is so easy to fall into charging people to show them their own awareness. To hold sway over others? How many people have fallen under the influence of their auditor selling them something to rid themselves of? To hide the fact from yourself that you can stay duped for decades behind some "workable system idea"? Because you truly believe that people need what scientology offers? How many different views of what is being done to a person with auditing are there out there?

 

[George Layton]

Wow!

Unbelievable! Backstabbing and backstabbing and more...

Gerbode is all buddy with David Mayo, then bankrupts him? While Gerbode is in court, he discredits scn entirely, saying this is from Freudian roots, acts all buddy buddy to David Mayo, then bankrupts David Mayo, selling his debts right back to David Miscavige, the turns around and acknowledges scn in a book after all of that?

I mean ? What an ASSHOLE!

Can I add just one more fact to the drama which has apparently been all around Frank Gerbode since decades, that he was also good friends with another shitstorm lightning rod who went on and on about his supposed virtues?

Hummmm. sounds like just the person needed to start up this scientology liter lite.

 

[phenomanon]

wait, wait... R3R, Dianetics ..... you should know that by know..... Dianetics has NOT to be mixed up with Scientology:


I think we have found now your big crashing MU which led you to leave. Do you want to write a success report ?

And BTW, when will you start your steps A to E ?

And yes, IMHO R3RA is probably one of the very few usable parts of Dn & Scn.

but but but at the top of the Grade chart is NOTs. That stands for "New Era Dianetics for OTs. I guess that's where I got the idea that Dn and Scn were part and parcel of the same clusterfuck.
O I feel so much lighter. O I can see for miles and miles. OMG! Thank you Uncover for this amazing indication. I am fixed! Lemme at that Success Officer. Woot! Woot! I am rehabbed!

 

[phenomanon]

I think when phenomanon wrote "Sarge", she ment Dr. Frank A. Gerbode, known as "Sarge":
https://books.google.at/books?id=aW...AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=Sarge Gerbode TIR&f=false

To his background in Co$:
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/gerbode1.html

Hey, what a surprise.... Dianetics has origins.....

And there is even a connection to David Mayo:
http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/13/the-saga-of-david-mayo-scientologys-banished-tech-wizard/

Sterling post.
Hard data.
I knew "Sarge" Gerbode in the cherch.
I knew him after he left. I knew both "Sarge" and Mayo when they got together.
I know that TIR is R3R because I went to a Seminar in Seattle and listened as he 'ran' it on some of the Psychologists and Psychiatrists in the room. IIRC, he ran it " Narrative", which means that nothing is asked for by the Auditor than the Incident agreed upon. Narrative R3R does not command "Earlier Similar", but it will go there if run Narrative long enuff.
Whatever.
If you want to believe that "Sarge" invented TIR out of his Psychology training, go ahead and believe it.

 

[phenomanon]

Despite all the shitstorm, there is a bright side to this.

DM has basically lost any claims to any originality of Dianetics.

TIR is a tiny player in the PTSD field - there are so many research projects that have been done with a very similar system, all with different names, all by reputable researchers and psychiatrists. I even participated in one briefly a couple of years ago. That one had a very specific public (those who had ONE major traumatic incident only in their lives, so I didn't qualify past the first session interview, but at least I learned all about it), did not use a rote patter like Dn, combined with exercise and group counseling, and one year into its research, claimed every participant stably improved with checkups at 1 wk, 1 mo, 3 mos and 6 mos.

That's just ONE that got an idea from TIR - and there are dozens more, all by reputable institutions and psychiatrists.

Frank Gerbode's heyday may not be completely over yet, but Dn is completely gone, replaced and improved, within its little niche in specific PTSD cases, and none of the psychiatric methods that springboarded from that revival of a Freudian psychoanalytical technique even mention TIR or Dianetics.

DM's rage and evil backstabbing Mayo through Gerbode cost COS Dianetics - the only thing with any solid science behind it. So in a way, David Mayo still won. Time changed the circumstances and ideas and research marched right past and left the backstabbing former 'winners' in the dust.
I highly doubt anyone would consider it 'The Modern Science of Mental Health' ever again.

COS, RTC, none of them "owned" Dianetics after CADA copyrighted the name California Association of Dianetic Auditors. I have written this up so much, I think I finally have as-ised the year we incorporated. 1954 I think. I could consult my archives, but I am too lazy. The cherch can use the word " DianeticS", but they are breaking copyright laws if they use the singular form " Dianetic".
Details such as this get lost amongst the flurry of scandals that collect re the cherch.
When the old GO tried their "Infiltration tech" on CADA, they were trying to recoup the word " Dianetic". The infiltration by the 106 scn'ists into CADA was not successful, but they were able to steal our Corporate Seal. I also noticed that they claimed CADA as one of their tax exempt orgs.
The 1990 LA Times ran a short column on this infiltration attempt, if you are interested.