Done to others? Done to self? Why we left.

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
The waiting list!

Yes, Mac, there is a story there. Well spotted!

I've told it to many people but haven't posted it here simply because it points directly to my identity. I somehow manage to maintain the self-generated illusion that I remain unidentifiable to the world at large. Some here have attempted to disabuse me of this fanciful notion but I cling to my anonymity like Linus clings to his security blanket.

Perhaps I'll write it up and PM you, I'll think about it. :)

If you PM him and not me too...well, I'll :bigcry: :yes: and I know you'd just HATE that! :D

EP
 

Veda

Sponsor
I left when I discovered that the church had an IRS compliance officer. Thru the agreement between the COS and IRS the church would have to police its parishioner to pay their taxes. Because of the "law of agency" once a company ,organization, individual etc agrees to perform a function for another they become legally binded to one another to perform agreed upon, contractual duties. So in any tax matters concerning any of the parishioner it is the responsibility of the church to enforce payment of any over due taxes.
This partnership destroyed the church parishioner privileged of communications
and gave t he right of the IRS or any government affiliated agencies to inspect pc or ethic folders and use it against the individual though to date I have not heard of that happening but I have been interview by orders of the tax compliance officer orders. So who knows where the data from the interview ended up. At that point I figured that the War the church won against the IRS was a sham to which later I found that one of the board members of the CST was ex IRS all the pieces fit together. DM raise to power was assisted by agent implanted with it the church and their real goal is to destroy Scn by altering the tech and legally robbing its declining members to the point of driving away as many members as possible.

Interesting.

You should read Hubbard's old letters to the FBI. He was "reporting" people (including Scientologists in "good standing") to the FBI as "Communists," and also "reporting" (as a means of "getting" someone) others (including Scientologists) to the the FBI, the IRS, and other agencies, since the 1950s. Sometimes, he wouldn't do it directly, but would have others do it, or have it done in a way which hid the source of the "report."

The Grade Chart (see old 'Advance!' and 'Source' mags) was effectively changed (with old OT levels no longer delivered) by mid 1979. At that time Miscavige was 19 years old. Hubbard was still in charge and would be be, at least until 1984, or so.

See Larry Brennan Declaration, and the writings of others who were on the inside.

There's very little in the discontinued OT levels that can't be found in 1950s Scientology books, or various other places.

Hubbard and Scientology were always open to making deals with any government, and Hubbard liked to present himself as having worked for the government as a spy. In the 1950s, he tried to the sell the US Defense department Psychological War techniques, or at least wrote that he was willing to work in that capacity in a letter to the FBI.

In 1951, he wrote in a letter to 2nd wife Sara that, "Dianetics will last 10,000 years for the Army and Navy have it now." (Apparently a tall tale, but nonetheless.)

In an early Dianetics lecture, Hubbard told Dianeticists/Scientologists that he had been approached by the US Navy and that they had tried to take control of Dianetics (why couldn't they just buy the book?), and he had refused to cooperate. (Yet another tall tale.)

Yet, Hubbard had psychological warfare techniques "on his mind," and seemed to regard these as part of Scientology. This doesn't make much sense to Scientologists, unless one considers that Hubbard also was the author of the booklet that he called the 'Brainwashing Manual', which he used on outsiders and on his own followers, and incorporated into Scientology "tech."

One of the best things that the FBI ever did was raid Scientology buildings in Los Angeles, and Washington DC, in 1977. The information that was revealed has proven to be invaluable in understanding what the secretive subject of Scientology really is. The methods revealed by the documents unearthed during these raids (more Hubbard tech), had been used on Scientologists also, not only on outsiders. These docs plus the Brainwashing Manual are key to "decoding" Hubbard's Scientology.

The IRS deal didn't occur until 1993.

As for Scientology, these days, handing over info on its member's personal tax issues - as obtained through counseling sessions, or culling of counselling sessions - I wouldn't be in the least surprised if that happens, today.

However, similar things have happened throughout the history of Scientology and - as were the changes in the OT levels, and as was the looting of the Mission Network - it happened under L. Ron Hubbard's direction.
 
Last edited:

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
That's a great question, and I'm really enjoying this thread. Nodding my head a lot!!:yes:


For me it was like this: I saw what was being done to me, but justified it like crazy that they were doing it because they cared and it was what I needed to handle my case.

I saw the outpoints in the organization, but thought they would eventually be handled by the admin tech.



I was not winning, personally, but still believed others were.



It was when I realized (via the Internet) what was happening to others (even worse) , and that the outpoints weren't being handled that the house of cards fell.

So I guess the answer is . . .both.

-TL
 
Did any of us give a shit, much less leave, until it happened to us?

Just curious.

Those who "gave a shit" invariably drew attacks of one sort or another from management. Back in '82 literally thousands of us left at that time precisely because we "gave a shit", sought to handle, and were unable to be effective in handling. Many of these thousands were recent grads of the then new Happiness Rundown and were not about to put up with further organizational out-ethics.

It caused a bit of a stir. :whistling:

I was among them. I was "winning" bigtime, especially on the HRD. Among the things that put me afoul of my seniors of the time was having written a KR on a senior exec at the mission for inappropriate regging, recruiting, and failure to live up to his promises. :)

This Great Schism of '82 led to the creation of the freezone & independent movements.


Mark A. Baker
 

Megalomaniac

Silver Meritorious Patron
I couldn't talk to Scio's (I disliked the fact that all they spoke about was bloody Blubby Hubbard and Scio) and I could never actually relax with a Scio due to maybe saying something 'wrong' ... (always a possibility :whistling: ) and ending up in ethics.

I couldn't talk to non Scios due to the 'us and them' phenomena that Blub created .

:hug:

Yep. :yes: I couldn't communicate well to other Scientologists for one set of reasons and I couldn't communicate well to non-Scientologists for another set of reasons. Most of those reasons were generated by the domineering policies of LRH.
 
I think I got something from the happiness rundown that was different from other rundowns. I think it really was about integrity and not "integrity" as a controlling trick.

The GO had looked at my pc folders - because I was /am gay. That pissed me off - and the integrity gains (for want of a better term) - made me resistant to just accepting them nosing through "confidential" materials. They made treatening remarks about what would happen if I did anything that would cause any PTS situation for them.
I was very unimpressed. Around the same time (early 80's) I was starting to understand that certain things that were "outpoints" could only be that way by being fucked up right up to the top levels of management. Previously I believed that "up there" were the experts who did not make mistakes and the mistakes were from lower down at local level.
These things were combined with the fact that actually I really must have recovered or found something in myself I had been trying to restore. If I had not I would still have had enough "ruin" to stay there. So when my contract was up I did not renew. I also made a resaonable compromise on trying for a replacement - a virtually impossible task - unless I deceived, lied' or tricked someone into it. After that I refused to be fucked around with the replacement lie. I had actually completed the contract so was legally not bound anymore by it's content.
If it wasn't for the GO getting into my "confidential" pc folder I might have stayed. It was no big deal. There wasn't anything terrible there and there was not the terrible stuff others went through. It was just the principle of it and what it signified about PC/auditor- church relationship. If I hadn't noticed (from way down in NZ) that something was rotten in the state of Top Management as well.........anyway that was how I found the exit sign.
 

HolyCow

Patron with Honors
The first question is why we went in!

:omg: There's one common answer, only because there's one common question: Why we went in. We all sought help. We left because a) we didn't get it and b) by then we needed help even more than when we went "in"!

Early days: Book I, easy, cheap, & friendly much like the Tupperware parties so fashionable in the day, 1950's. 1960's was flower power and searching for the truth, baby. It was either Drugs & RocknRoll or self-help veggie groups back then, you were of one camp or another. The 70's was Monster Fear, Vietnam, scurrying survival techniques. Then the 80's was Recession, revival of Nuclear threats, massive job layoffs, and worst: really bad hair and music. This era produced the Reign of Miscavige, no surprise and it's been downhill ever since.

Fast forward to 21st century of every criminal on the globe getting absolute free reign, even in America with the inevitable collapse of economies. All those whipping up the culture of greed and megomaniacal power have been frozen in the spotlight, yet unable to stop themselves from their crimes and lapping at their troughs, for all the world to witness. PLEASE realize this: They can't stop even with the spotlight on!:hifive:

Whether it's AIG or CofS and Miscavige .... the crocodile clock is ticking in NeverNever Land.
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
:omg: There's one common answer, only because there's one common question: Why we went in. We all sought help. We left because a) we didn't get it and b) by then we needed help even more than when we went "in"!

Early days: Book I, easy, cheap, & friendly much like the Tupperware parties so fashionable in the day, 1950's. 1960's was flower power and searching for the truth, baby. It was either Drugs & RocknRoll or self-help veggie groups back then, you were of one camp or another. The 70's was Monster Fear, Vietnam, scurrying survival techniques. Then the 80's was Recession, revival of Nuclear threats, massive job layoffs, and worst: really bad hair and music. This era produced the Reign of Miscavige, no surprise and it's been downhill ever since.

Fast forward to 21st century of every criminal on the globe getting absolute free reign, even in America with the inevitable collapse of economies. All those whipping up the culture of greed and megomaniacal power have been frozen in the spotlight, yet unable to stop themselves from their crimes and lapping at their troughs, for all the world to witness. PLEASE realize this: They can't stop even with the spotlight on!:hifive:

Whether it's AIG or CofS and Miscavige .... the crocodile clock is ticking in NeverNever Land.

:welcome: to ESMB Holy Cow!! I think you're going to be fun to have around!

TL
 

HolyCow

Patron with Honors
Thanks and my hubby is having a Cow! reading my posts. I've never ever talked about any of this manure. He lifts out of his chair, but then he descends laughing at the end.
I have been inspired reading some excellent writers and their wit. I've done my time and known some characters. Fortunate to my "sanity-meter", most I've liked were thrown out as scoundrels. Sadly, others were thrown overboard in some fashion or other.
But... I chalk it up to a chunk of adventure. I don't regret it at all (ok, except the $$$$ I could use right now). But hell, I can't get health insurance right now and I spent a bundle over my life paying into it when I didn't need it. Now, I know I should have invested and used the dividends to pay for medical.
So I got swindled. But I learned a lot. I learned the abilities I already had were valid and I no longer need anyone to say so. I learned my psychic abilities since I was a kid were real and I no longer needed anyone to say it wasn't so! I learned all the basic common sense and basic business 101 and univeral need to give and have love and respect and decency ... all these things were inherant and true.
Everything else is embellished croc and who wants to admit they were taken in? The only reason that Scn organizations exist is not the sadistic narcisstic buffoons who ride herd, it's the sheep that follow. They are the ones who have some need still to be driven. They are getting something out of this, and it's not what they say it is (clearing planet, etc etc).
There's parasites, worms, bacteria, virus, fungui, I mean, who cares who devours whom first? Let them eat dirt! It will all pass through the same sphincter in the end, all symbiotic assholes shall pass this way. Can I say that on this post?
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I had been reading a.r.s. and came to realize exactly what kind of organization it was. However, I hoped to remain in as an unindoctrinated CofS member and agitate for reform from within. I also dreamed of maybe facilitating communication somehow between critics and CofS. I realized the futility of these hopes in my penultimate "handling" and then walked away.

I left because they showed me contempt while still soliciting my time and my money at the exact same time. Basically, anyone who crosses me ends up on the short end of the stick, to put it bluntly.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Those who "gave a shit" invariably drew attacks of one sort or another from management. Back in '82 literally thousands of us left at that time precisely because we "gave a shit", sought to handle, and were unable to be effective in handling. Many of these thousands were recent grads of the then new Happiness Rundown and were not about to put up with further organizational out-ethics.

It caused a bit of a stir. :whistling:

I was among them. I was "winning" bigtime, especially on the HRD. Among the things that put me afoul of my seniors of the time was having written a KR on a senior exec at the mission for inappropriate regging, recruiting, and failure to live up to his promises. :)

This Great Schism of '82 led to the creation of the freezone & independent movements.


Mark A. Baker

Me too! After the HRD I wasn't willing to to turn a blind eye to mistreatment of Scientologists by Scientologists. I took on senior execs who lied to scientologists. I said that ethics officers should be abolished! :roflmao: I got declared! :hysterical:

I turned my back on Scn in all its forms completely. I had some respect for what David Mayo was doing in the ACCs, but rejected Capt Bill as he seemed to be stuck in a psuedo rondroid identity. But the ACCs were also concentrating on the upper levels at the time, which I decided were just Hubbard's imagined own-case.
 

cantsay

Patron Meritorious
I did basically the same as Panda mentioned. I saw the crap others went through, I was able to justify a lot of it, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. People can watch a lot of stuff going on, but until it happens to YOU personally, you might not have the catalyst to rip yourself out of the lifestyle youve put so much time effort and money into.

I got to the point where I couldnt stand the outpoints anymore (against myself and many others) and I wrote a big report on the people running my org. The result? Orders came from uplines to get me to admit to being an SP, or make me point to one of my friends as being an SP. There was absolutely NO EFFORT to fix the outpoints. NONE. Thats when I realised the group was suppressive.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I had been reading a.r.s. and came to realize exactly what kind of organization it was. However, I hoped to remain in as an unindoctrinated CofS member and agitate for reform from within. I also dreamed of maybe facilitating communication somehow between critics and CofS. I realized the futility of these hopes in my penultimate "handling" and then walked away.
My experience, while certainly not precisely the same as yours, was similar.

While in, I also intended to remain an un-indoctrinated Scientologist who worked for reform from within. Consistent with my personality I tended not to "agitate," but to try to work more persuasively and subtly -- i.e., by trying to calmly and rationally trying to convince them it was in their best interest to change. Obviously, that did not turn out well.

As I stated in my original post, I left because I was tired of being ashamed of myself. But like you, I also realized that my dream of reforming the COS from within was futile. Speaking only for myself, I realized my personal dream of reforming the COS from within was not only futile, but moronic. I actually think that the COS is a more rigidly authoritarian and hierarchical organization than the U.S. Marine Corps.

Unlike you, I did not leave after some final blow up. I simply became too disgusted with myself to stay, so I walked away.

I wouldn't be surprised if my e-meter is still in the locked meter closet. There were a surprising number of abandoned e-meters in the closet while I was in.
 

Carmel

Crusader
I did basically the same as Panda mentioned. I saw the crap others went through, I was able to justify a lot of it, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. People can watch a lot of stuff going on, but until it happens to YOU personally, you might not have the catalyst to rip yourself out of the lifestyle youve put so much time effort and money into.

I got to the point where I couldnt stand the outpoints anymore (against myself and many others) and I wrote a big report on the people running my org. The result? Orders came from uplines to get me to admit to being an SP, or make me point to one of my friends as being an SP. There was absolutely NO EFFORT to fix the outpoints. NONE. Thats when I realised the group was suppressive.
I went through similar stuff to this myself cantsay.

Prior to the mid '90's in Sydney though, I had or thought I had support about what I was writing up and sending up lines. People like ED ASI, FEI, MEI, WEI, Sandy Wilhere, and Snr C/S Int (in the '80's), responded and helped me deal with a lot the crap that I thought was ANZO originated.

In '97 though, we got a three person RTC mission in the AO, fired directly from DM. I went through about six months of sec checks, study assignments, ethics etc, because I wasn't changing my mind (it kept getting extended and extended, 'cause I wasn't saying what they wanted to hear). There was no way out of it, unless I submitted to their "think".

At the end of one of the many cycles over that time period, the RTC MAA asked me whether or not I still had any disagreements. I said that I had written up a list of out-points that I felt we as scientologists needed to rectify. He read them, then came back and went off his nut at me (but that's another story). He was on a spitting froth roll, and during it, he said, "There are no outpoints, YOU and others like you are the outpoint!"

This guy along with his toffy nosed bitchy supposed "Class 8" mission I/C (who hardly knew any bloody tech at all, or was happy to refuse it given the fu'ked way she did end ruds on o/w's), were being run by DM directly. Around that time, it had become pretty clear, that 'MENTAL COMPLIANCE' had now become the order of the day, and it didn't matter what the tech said or the creed said, or anything else. "RTC" were acting like facists, they were now running the show, and unless you complied with what they wanted, not only physically but also MENTALLY, then ya didn't have a shit show of surviving.

I could cope with the crap I was being subjected to by the group at that point (I had been through many ethics/justice cycles over the years), but it was then that I saw and faced the more truthful scene about the group/the CofS. It's then that I realised that I wasn't part of that group, and could never be, 'cause it wasn't what I thought it was, or wanted it to be, AND, I sure as hell couldn't comply or wasn't going to.

I don't think that being put through the wringer/abused or whatever is in itself what makes people leave. For many though, it has been what has given them insight into what the CofS is actually about - and that has been the catalyst.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Hi, Kha-Khan,

I hear ya. In my case, yes, definitely a final blow up but it had been building up a while. I was subjected to a number of very dreary handlings at CofS. So finally they upped the ante and I was out of there and I've been a pain in the ass ever since. (which is what happens to those who cross me. :coolwink: :D )

It would be very difficult to be in and incognito, so to speak. I think there are some people who do that but sooner or later, I think they end up leaving, either quietly and unofficially or officially.
 

cantsay

Patron Meritorious
I went through similar stuff to this myself cantsay.

Prior to the mid '90's in Sydney though, I had or thought I had support about what I was writing up and sending up lines. People like ED ASI, FEI, MEI, WEI, Sandy Wilhere, and Snr C/S Int (in the '80's), responded and helped me deal with a lot the crap that I thought was ANZO originated.

In '97 though, we got a three person RTC mission in the AO, fired directly from DM. I went through about six months of sec checks, study assignments, ethics etc, because I wasn't changing my mind (it kept getting extended and extended, 'cause I wasn't saying what they wanted to hear). There was no way out of it, unless I submitted to their "think".

At the end of one of the many cycles over that time period, the RTC MAA asked me whether or not I still had any disagreements. I said that I had written up a list of out-points that I felt we as scientologists needed to rectify. He read them, then came back and went off his nut at me (but that's another story). He was on a spitting froth roll, and during it, he said, "There are no outpoints, YOU and others like you are the outpoint!"

This guy along with his toffy nosed bitchy supposed "Class 8" mission I/C (who hardly knew any bloody tech at all, or was happy to refuse it given the fu'ked way she did end ruds on o/w's), were being run by DM directly. Around that time, it had become pretty clear, that 'MENTAL COMPLIANCE' had now become the order of the day, and it didn't matter what the tech said or the creed said, or anything else. "RTC" were acting like facists, they were now running the show, and unless you complied with what they wanted, not only physically but also MENTALLY, then ya didn't have a shit show of surviving.

I could cope with the crap I was being subjected to by the group at that point (I had been through many ethics/justice cycles over the years), but it was then that I saw and faced the more truthful scene about the group/the CofS. It's then that I realised that I wasn't part of that group, and could never be, 'cause it wasn't what I thought it was, or wanted it to be, AND, I sure as hell couldn't comply or wasn't going to.

I don't think that being put through the wringer/abused or whatever is in itself what makes people leave. For many though, it has been what has given them insight into what the CofS is actually about - and that has been the catalyst.

You certainly got the rough end of the pineapple :bigcry: Once when I was recovered after Id blown, I was sitting in the ethics officers office when the ED walked past and put on such a show of agro animosity it stunned me. He was not happy I was back. Coupled with the fact that the majority of staff avoided me like the plague or glared at me, I realised that I was to be universally hated and distrusted by the "most ethical group in the planet" because I didnt agree with the abuse handed out by my seniors. So I didnt go back, even though I wanted to. There was no point.

I hoped at the time people would SEE that, and realise what was going on. But then, I never saw it when the same was happening to others before me, so I doubt it..
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
It would be very difficult to be in and incognito, so to speak. I think there are some people who do that but sooner or later, I think they end up leaving, either quietly and unofficially or officially.
I was one of the people who went incognito. You are right, it was difficult.

I realized I was doing very little good, and was doing much more harm. I was doing harm by supporting abuse -- by paying the COS for courses and books. By being the "reasonable," "rational" public face. By smoothing things over.

Simply by being there, giving my public allegiance (despite my largely but certainly not entirely private misgivings) to the group.

Ultimately there is a balance, you know? A net result -- positive or negative. No institution, group, person, or even Church or religion, is all good. Man is flawed, so that which man creates is flawed. So be it. But there is a net result. "Ye shall know them by their fruits." And the fruit of the Church of Scientology is mostly rotten.

I did leave quietly. I simply left at the end of one day, and then never came back.
 
I turned my back on Scn in all its forms completely. I had some respect for what David Mayo was doing in the ACCs, but rejected Capt Bill as he seemed to be stuck in a psuedo rondroid identity. But the ACCs were also concentrating on the upper levels at the time, which I decided were just Hubbard's imagined own-case.


Understandable. I don't quite share that assessment of upper levels, but then I don't buy Hubbard's take on them either. Basically I consider there is something useful there to be audited, too much charge pops up during the course of auditing on it besides the similarities to other spiritual traditions. However I definitely don't advocate accepting it as "revealed truth" either. :no:


Mark A. Baker
 
Top