Drama in Los Angeles

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
First, I want to say that I found your post wonderful and lovely. It actually gave me a warm feeling. You sound like a wonderful mother, and your daughter is very fortunate.

I did feel compelled, however, to address the single sentence quoted above. I found I felt very conflicted when I read that sentence. Normally, and particularly when I'm in a state of ignorance, the "live and let live" sentiment conveyed in that sentence is very much my philosophy. Indeed, it would be much more comfortable for me, personally, if that could still be my philosophy re: Scientology.

The problem is that I'm no longer ignorant, and hence no longer innocent. I know better.

So when I read about somebody being "ok" with their friends, family members, etc. being involved in, and more importantly supporting (even if monetarily) Scientology it causes me some... disquiet. A concern that they are involved, even if only tangentially, and supporting, even if only monetarily, well... evil. That the money paid goes to pay the PIs that harass people. That the money pays for shrill, delusional advertisements aimed at convincing people not to get medical care. That the money pays for, and supports, those who order and enforce family disconnection, coercive and deceptive financial practices, and the offloading of the ill and infirm.

The idea of being harsh towards either your or your daughter is very troubling to me. Everybody has a right to make up their own mind, and indeed a duty to do so. I hate being judgmental.

But there are other considerations. There are victims.

Kha Khan,

I totally understand what you are saying above. I agree with you. But I also believe that people need to learn for themselves about Scn. My daughter is not about to start pushing her viewpoints on to others about Scn. She wasn't brought up that way. I taught her "live and let live". I think she will make a better impression on her friends by achieving her goals without the aid of Scn and her friends will start to recognize that and will eventually have their own realizations. In the meantime, she is accepting of their choices. And she taught them to accept her choice to not be a Scn. To me, that is much more valuable than her telling them all about the evils of Scn.

I had to realize the evils of Scn on my own. I know for certain that if anyone had tried to talk to me about it, I would have not enjoyed it. I know a lot of us would like to scream it from roof tops, the evils of Scn, but until someone realizes it for themselves, I don't think it would do much good to scream from the roof tops.

The few protests I saw after Lisa M. died, I was totally convinced that the protesters were just "bad" people. After many years I saw the "light". And that is a process an individual has to take on their own. Otherwise, we become like the CofS by enforcing our realities onto others.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I really understand what you are saying. I also completely understand what it is like to pretend ... "Oh, you completed OT blah, how great!" while cringing inside. The bloody Good Roads path. I think you have to understand the big picture of scientology to be able to, or want to withdraw that 'social' agreement, as it will surely bring problems with friends and family. Each of us makes that decision as we go, and it can and does usually change the more info you gain.
I honestly think this is a very tough issue, particularly when it comes to family and close friends. It often comes down to a conflict between personal relationships and personal loyalties, on the one hand, versus one's adherence to one's abstract principles of ethics, morality, and right and wrong on the other hand.

And the particular facts matter, very much. If one had a much loved brother, sister, child or parent whose "support" of the COS consisted of paying for and taking the Comm Course, Student Hat or Pro TRs, I suspect that deliberately causing or risking disconnection would be warranted, moral, right or ethical.

If, on the other hand, one had a not particularly close "friend" who worked for OSA Int on Black PR campaigns, a different response may be justified.

Contrary to the "doubt" formula, even when the decision has been reached it frequently is not, and cannot be, black or white.

The absolutely last thing that I want to even remotely suggest is a "disconnection" policy from the "wog" side of the fence.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I totally understand what you are saying above. I agree with you. But I also believe that people need to learn for themselves about Scn. My daughter is not about to start pushing her viewpoints on to others about Scn. She wasn't brought up that way. I taught her "live and let live". I think she will make a better impression on her friends by achieving her goals without the aid of Scn and her friends will start to recognize that and will eventually have their own realizations. In the meantime, she is accepting of their choices. And she taught them to accept her choice to not be a Scn. To me, that is much more valuable than her telling them all about the evils of Scn.
Forgive me for repeating myself, but I think what I said in response to Free to shine is also applicable to what you have written. I honestly think this is a very tough issue, particularly when it comes to family and close friends. It often comes down to a conflict between personal relationships and personal loyalties, on the one hand, versus one's adherence to one's abstract principles of ethics, morality, and right and wrong on the other hand.

And the particular facts matter, very much. If one had a much loved brother, sister, child or parent whose "support" of the COS consisted of paying for and taking the Comm Course, Student Hat or Pro TRs, I suspect that deliberately causing or risking disconnection would be warranted, moral, right or ethical.

If, on the other hand, one had a not particularly close "friend" who worked for OSA Int on Black PR campaigns, a different response may be justified.

Contrary to the "doubt" formula, even when the decision has been reached it frequently is not, and cannot be, black or white.

The absolutely last thing that I want to even remotely suggest is a "disconnection" policy from the "wog" side of the fence.

I had to realize the evils of Scn on my own. I know for certain that if anyone had tried to talk to me about it, I would have not enjoyed it. I know a lot of us would like to scream it from roof tops, the evils of Scn, but until someone realizes it for themselves, I don't think it would do much good to scream from the roof tops.

The few protests I saw after Lisa M. died, I was totally convinced that the protesters were just "bad" people. After many years I saw the "light". And that is a process an individual has to take on their own. Otherwise, we become like the CofS by enforcing our realities onto others.
As someone who was around the critical scene at the time of the Lisa McPherson protests and the rise of ARS, I find this very interesting and sad. I always tried to make a distinction between communicating to, and inoculating, the general public versus communicating with, and hopefully curing or enlightening (dear Lord, doesn't that sound like one is full of hubris and self-importance?) current Scientologists. Obviously, in a protest situation those two goals may conflict -- assuming one gave thought to one's goals and how best to achieve them, rather than just venting.

Then again, I remember one old critic (damn, I forget who) who said that the Church of Scientology would be the first religion that was laughed out of existence. I never thought that was possible. Then I saw the South Park episode.

FWIW, one can find old posts by me on ARS arguing against the use of the word "Clam" and "Clams" to refer to Scientologists, and the use of other degrading and dehumanizing language. Unfortunately, I lost on the "Clam" issue a decade ago.

I have to admit that I have been more strident here, less diplomatic, less "calmly trying to persuade" than I used to be in other forums at other times. Far mMore likely so say something like, "this is crap" than I used to be. Something to which I should give some thought.
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
Kha Khan,

I totally understand what you are saying above. I agree with you. But I also believe that people need to learn for themselves about Scn. My daughter is not about to start pushing her viewpoints on to others about Scn. She wasn't brought up that way. I taught her "live and let live". I think she will make a better impression on her friends by achieving her goals without the aid of Scn and her friends will start to recognize that and will eventually have their own realizations. In the meantime, she is accepting of their choices. And she taught them to accept her choice to not be a Scn. To me, that is much more valuable than her telling them all about the evils of Scn.

I had to realize the evils of Scn on my own. I know for certain that if anyone had tried to talk to me about it, I would have not enjoyed it. I know a lot of us would like to scream it from roof tops, the evils of Scn, but until someone realizes it for themselves, I don't think it would do much good to scream from the roof tops.

The few protests I saw after Lisa M. died, I was totally convinced that the protesters were just "bad" people. After many years I saw the "light". And that is a process an individual has to take on their own. Otherwise, we become like the CofS by enforcing our realities onto others.


ImOut I'm totally with you here! (Though I do understand the other side, I think in this case your daughter is doing the right thing.) A couple of thoughts come to mind.

There's the old adage "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." I think it's the right thing to do to let the friendship be a friendship. If her friends know that she truly cares about them and respects them and won't judge them, they'll be much more willing to come to her if/when they start having questions or frustrations. There's nothing like a percieved "know-it-all" to throw up those defenses.

I remember people trying to talk to me while I was "in" -- it served only to make me not trust that person. Not only did it put a wall up between myself and those people, but it steeled my defenses even more all-around (I really had a need to be right, and was NOT going to let THEM be right). I'm positive that I stayed in Scientology much longer than I would have if people wouldn't have tried to save me.

Human nature dictates that people respond better to love and respect than being told that they are wrong. It's just the way we are.

ImOut that was a great post. . . and you are right, the last thing we want to do is be like the CofS with an "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude.

:)TL
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
I believe my daughter is handling it the best way that she can. And I believe she got her message across - if you're going to cause drama because my mother is declared, then I won't be your friend anymore. Didn't LRH say, the threat of withdrawal of affinity is more powerful in getting one's point across - or some such thing. Personally, I don't care what LRH said, but that's basically what my daughter is using on her friends. That's gonna hit them much harder than her telling them they are a bunch of idiots for believing LRH and in Scn. Just my opinion.

TL, you hit it right on the head - you start telling people they are wrong, they are more likely to hold firm on they are right. Just they way we're all built. My dad didn't want me in Scn, so I had to stay in to prove I was right being in. LOL!!! And the timing was never right to say I was out before he died. But I'm sure he got it.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
There's the old adage "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."
I think this is wonderful. I'm sure I've heard it before, but forgot. Very important. Something I have to keep in mind.

I remember people trying to talk to me while I was "in" -- it served only to make me not trust that person. Not only did it put a wall up between myself and those people, but it steeled my defenses even more all-around (I really had a need to be right, and was NOT going to let THEM be right). I'm positive that I stayed in Scientology much longer than I would have if people wouldn't have tried to save me.

Human nature dictates that people respond better to love and respect than being told that they are wrong. It's just the way we are.
Hell, I'm experiencing that right now, and I'm not even in the Church.

I've posted some on Why We Protest, honestly trying to be helpful and sharing what little experience I've. And anytime I post something to the effect that one should not underestimate the COS, and particularly OSA, I get:
back to that apologist/fleazone site ESMB and be gone with you.
I read something like that, and other crap, and it makes me want to... join Scientology.

Just kidding.:omg:
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
I've posted some on Why We Protest, honestly trying to be helpful and sharing what little experience I've. And anytime I post something to the effect that one should not underestimate the COS, and particularly OSA, I get:

Originally Posted by Anonymous

"back to that apologist/fleazone site ESMB and be gone with you."

I read something like that, and other crap, and it makes me want to... join Scientology.

Just kidding.:omg:

Thanks Kha-Khan :)

I've never ventured to WWP, :nervous: but I'm sure I wouldn't last long. I sure appreciate what Anonymous has done for public awareness of Scientology; they are capable of things many exes can't do, and have made it much easier to be exes. But there are things that you just can't understand unless you've been there, and I find this "apologist/fleazone" :eyeroll: site full of wisdom and incredibly healing. :yes:

It's amazing how even Internet communities develop such defining cultures.

:)TL
 
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