Effort to Simplify

[Panda Termint]

vinaire has just proven once again that LRH is a theif.

Rd00

I believe it was Ron Jr (Nibs) who morphed Vipassana-like meditation practices into scn's TRs.

But, yes, it's well-known that LRH was, amongst other things, very devious about who discovered/owned/was-source-of/invented etc whatever. Thief (or theif) seems to be about right.

 

[Panda Termint]

Sorry, I did miss your earlier post (reproduced here).

Post #35, Effort to Simplify

Simple acknowledgment to deactivate these circuits does sound right. That really makes sense.

But the Incidents I & II don't make any sense. Dart did mention somewhere how Hubbard came up with those incidents. That was funny.

I take my words back. Panda, you did make an important contribution.

I just had an MU on Occam's Razor. It always reminded me of a barber.

.

No worries, Vin.

Yes, I consider Inc2 and Inc1 to be script that Hubbard invented (borrowed) in an attempt to make a coherent "story" out of some observed phenomena which he didn't understand.

He always HAD to be the Authority on everything. I wrote about this elsewhere on the board.

 

[Vinaire]

Slowly, slowly, I seem to be inching toward the realization that the simple but powerful technologies involved in WORD CLEARING & IDENICS are capable of replacing the whole Scientology Bridge. All one needs is PRESENCE and LOVE. One doesn't need the via of something like an e-meter.

Please see;

Post #20, Look vs Think

.

 

[uniquemand]

One doesn't need Idenics or Word Clearing, either. Processes aren't what does the job. Presence and willingness to do what is needed are all that is necessary. Processes and viewpoints are helpful tools. Without someone there, and willing to use them, they go unused.

 

[Rene Descartes]

Slowly, slowly, I seem to be inching toward the realization that the simple but powerful technologies involved in WORD CLEARING & IDENICS are capable of replacing the whole Scientology Bridge. All one needs is PRESENCE and LOVE. One doesn't need the via of something like an e-meter.

Please see;

Post #20, Look vs Think

.

vinaire,

YOU ROCK!!

alanzo must be proud of you!!

Rd00

 

[Vinaire]

I believe that following steps are required to address a severe mental condition.

(1) A holding action (as with Medication), to temporarily alleviate disturbing feelings. This should be used only as necessary to minimize any detrimental side effects.

(2) Looking (as in meditation), to diffuse embedded automaticity or conditioning, such as, obsessions and fixed ideas. This would require that a person be allowed to be in a safe environment. Idenics would fit here.

(3) Thinking (as in consulting), to finally help sort out the situation that is disturbing to one. Word Clearing on key words that are significant to that situation would fit here.

.

 

[Rene Descartes]

viniare,

you left out good clean unadulterated sex.



Rd00

 

[Vinaire]

Hypnosis

This is an interesting article from Scientific American:

Is Hypnosis a Distinct Form of Consciousness?

We agree with Lynn and psychologist Irving Kirsch of the University of Hull in England, who wrote in 1995 that “having failed to find reliable markers of trance after 50 years of careful research, most researchers have concluded that this hypothesis [that hypnosis is a unique state of consciousness] has outlived its usefulness.” Increasingly, evidence is suggesting that the effects of hypnosis result largely from people’s expectations about what hypnosis entails rather than from the hypnotic state itself. Still, it is always possible that future studies could overturn or at least qualify this conclusion. In particular, research on potential physiological markers of hypnosis may elucidate how hypnosis differs from other states of consciousness. Although hypnosis poses fascinating mysteries that will keep scientists busy for decades, it seems clear that it has far more in common with everyday wakefulness than with the watch-induced trance of Hollywood crime thrillers.

.

 

[me myself & i]

One doesn't need Idenics or Word Clearing, either. Processes aren't what does the job. Presence and willingness to do what is needed are all that is necessary. Processes and viewpoints are helpful tools. Without someone there, and willing to use them, they go unused.

That is beautifully spoken (/written).

Even though where you wrote: Presence and willingness to do what is needed are all that is necessary, where I would have written: Presence & Love....., I sense we are both pointing to the very same thing. Where you are employing it as a verb and I, a noun.

Nonetheless, beautifully spoken/written I say.

Kudo's to you, U.

Once again.

mmi

 

[Vinaire]

What does it mean to "contact another thetan" for the first time?

I think this would be first awareness of the presence of other-determinism.

What does it mean for a thetan to collide with another thetan?

It would be two self-determinisms running into each other. At that point there would be a total absence of agreement. There would be no inkling of what an agreement is. It would be shocking to come across other-determinism.

What does it mean for a thetan to be stuck to another thetan?

One is probably stuck in the shock of discovering other-determinism.

.

 

[Vinaire]

When one comes to accept other-determinism and gets subdued by it then one starts to subscribe to the concept of God.

But there is no God really.

Can God be date/located?

.

 

[uniquemand]

Lol. Thou art God. Will you share water with me, Brother Vinaire?

 

[Vinaire]

Here is how BTs and clusters are located:

A meter read when attention is put on the body = a BT
There is a pressure area = cluster of BTs

.

 

[uniquemand]

^^^^This is STUPID^^^^ :: But it IS what Scientology Teaches ::

 

[Vinaire]

I had many wonderful wins doing Vipassana meditation in the form of OT TR0. Those must be equivalent to the wins obtained at O III.

.

 

[Vinaire]

^^^^This is STUPID^^^^ :: But it IS what Scientology Teaches ::

Yes, that is stupid because one is going through the via of e-meter. God only knows what the e-meter is reacting on. It could very well be reacting on one's expectations.

.

 

[Panda Termint]

Here is how BTs and clusters are located:

A meter read when attention is put on the body = a BT
There is a pressure area = cluster of BTs
.

Incorrect/incomplete.

^^^^This is STUPID^^^^ :: But it IS what Scientology Teaches ::

It's not! At least, not in the CofS I attended.

Yes, that is stupid because one is going through the via of e-meter. God only knows what the e-meter is reacting on. It could very well be reacting on one's expectations.
.

Vinaire, You seem to be way off base here.

You're either missing vital data or have been misinformed as regards handlings and metering on OT3.

As far as I know, the data is readily available on the net.

Anyone familiar with the actual materials of OT3 and the auditing of that Level is probably wondering why you don't just study the OT3 Course or ask someone who knows the material like Paul/DOF.

 

[Vinaire]

Incorrect/incomplete.

It's not! At least, not in the CofS I attended.

Vinaire, You seem to be way off base here.

You're either missing vital data or have been misinformed as regards handlings and metering on OT3.

As far as I know, the data is readily available on the net.

Anyone familiar with the actual materials of OT3 and the auditing of that Level is probably wondering why you don't just study the OT3 Course or ask someone who knows the material like Paul/DOF.

Sorry, for any upset. I am inching through the OT III materials here. Unfortunately, the concepts are not laid out clearly in these materials so I am having difficulty understanding them.

BT is just a theory to explain some down-to-earth phenomenon. That phenomenon, as I understand, can be described by one word "somatic," for which the first book, DMSMH, was written.

The following from OT III materials does not really explain what a body thetan is,

For the purpose of clarity, by BodyThetan is meant a thetan who is stuck to another thetan or body but is not in control.

A Thetan is, of course, a Scientology word using the Greek theta which was the Greek symbol for thought or life. An individual being such as a man is a thetan, he is not a body and he does not think because he has no brain.

It simply put forth a theory, and I am trying to understand what underlies it. I want to understand how the wins on OT III are different from wins through Vipassana Meditation.

The thetan, to me, represents a "point of self-determinism," which is the goal of those involved with "artificial intelligence." A BT, would then appear as "other-determinism" to a self-determined thetan (like me).

Am I right so far?

How does someone recognize "other-determinism" attached to one's body? Is it some sort of expectation after reading OT III materials?

In Vipassana meditation, one simply observes whatever body sensations are there without resisting them and simply lets them dissipate.

What is the difference in the end product?

.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

<snip> An individual being such as a man is a thetan, he is not a body and he does not think because he has no brain.<snip>

Misduplication. Should be:.. Because he has a brain.

Hubbard repeats yet again that humans are spirits and that the brain is a useless lump of beef.. We don't need it to think.. To people at OT III.. Think they would tire of listening to this rant by now?

 

[me myself & i]

Am I right so far?

yes.

How does someone recognize "other-determinism" attached to one's body? Is it some sort of expectation after reading OT III materials?

how does one recognize the silence & stillness of ones very own being? the answer to the last is the answer to the first (at least as a mental/theoretical possibility. lol). Endless being 'as' endless thought. That's Ron's gift. Or perhaps better stated, our gift to ourselves by way of Ron.

In Vipassana meditation, one simply observes whatever body sensations are there without resisting them and simply lets them dissipate.
What is the difference in the end product?

Perhaps satipaṭṭhāna sheds some light upon the question, and the answer?
On the other hand, perhaps not.

Satipaṭṭhāna (as you know) is the Presence of Mindfulness. Across four levels of distinctive experiences of Being.

* the Pali: kāyā (the body)
* the sensations, vedanā (the feelings)
* the mind cittā (the consciousness)
* the dhammā (the mental objects or qualities of consciousness)

I imagine sometimes the presence of mindfulness is actually an antithesis to the greatness of a silent spirit or soul. At least in terms of possibilities. Sometimes.

On the other hand, maybe not.

mm&i