Escape from Flagcatraz

ExCMO

Patron
Welcome here, and may you find a lot of friends and warm feelings around. I hope to hear more from you.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Welcome, NotNuts!

So glad to see you here.

Personally, I'm not surprised to find the Int abuses seeping down to the lower levels. I saw it myself much earlier (and to much less of a degree) in PAC in the 90s.

Shit rolls downhill, as they say.
 
BTW Flagcatraz - what a great name!

I totally understand what you mean how you felt when you arrived at Flag - when I was put on the decks, it felt like vacation. I actually got some sleep, we did some work, no TMs, no stress.
The first night, when I just had enough, I was told to go to OGH. It was late night. In one of the trailers where there were lots of bunkbeds, there was no more room so I found a blanket and lied on the floor, in my uniform. I was exhausted. Very soon I heard the noise of a motorbike, my stomach churned. Flashlight but through the darkness and I knew they were looking for me. Someone came to pick me up on the bike and took me to Qual where someone from RTC was waiting for me. It was about 2 am...
 

NotNuts

Patron
Ah yes, those lovely days on the decks at OGH.

I've got a story for you about the decks. It's actually how I ended up at Flag. A lot of my old friends from Gold who read this board never knew how I suddenly ended up there -- now you will. I call it "The Apprentice on Steroids".

I was on the decks for some time at Gold. The exact reason escapes me now, honestly. I spent most of the time in the 100 degree sun hauling rocks and doing other menial labor. Meals were always whatever was left over after everyone else had eaten. Security Guards were there to watch my every move.

After a few weeks I was approached by someone in HCO and told that I was going to come off the decks and be reposted as a dishwasher. That lasted all of four hours, when I got yanked out of the dish room and put back in Marketing to do "expeditor" work (i.e. grunt work). Then one night, about 11 p.m., I was approached by someone from HCO telling me that I was going to be reposted immediately as a Books Marketing Manager, because they didn't have one and it was a major flap with DM who was at Flag at the time (still dealing with the McPherson case).

I didn't want to do this -- I'd been that route before and I knew what I was in for working with him -- but somehow they convinced me and that night I was on a plane to Flag to work on a project for him with Dan Koon, Jeff Hawkins and others. This was in the first stages of what everyone now knows as the Golden Age of Knowledge.

We all took the red eye to Tampa, got to Flag and had a few minutes to freshen up before we were whisked into our first meeting with him. He paced around the conference room, smoking like a chimney (of course no one else could smoke in his presence), and told us that he was sick and tired of the way nobody could handle marketing except for him. Sort of like he was always telling us that nobody could do ANYTHING except for him. Well, pretty soon he's going to get his wish, because he'll be the only one left.

So, back to the story. He said he had a plan to find out who could cut it and who couldn't: He would give us 7 specific tasks to do over the next few days, and if any of us failed at any one of them, we would be instantly offloaded.

We all got our first assignment and went off to do it. We had an hour. When we were called back to the "board room" all of us had managed to get through this.

He then gave us the next task, and the next, each time setting a time limit and each time seeing who made it and who didn't. So far so good. These all had to do with books and marketing.

I can just imagine how it must have looked to the staff an public at Flag, these Int Base staff members running around the base with this hunted look in their eyes, trying to get these tasks done, and being followed around by RTC staff watching our every move.

I was getting pretty tired of this by now -- I didn't see where it was going at all. Then he told us that our next task was to go to the Flag AO and sell a lecture series to a public. We had one hour. It had to be one of the "Premier Series" lectures. So off we went. I didn't get a lecture sold in that hour, and was in terror when I went back in to the "board room". He went around the table, pointing at each person and saying, "Did YOU sell?" "YOU?" "YOU?" There were five yes'es and two no's. The no's were me and one other girl.

He pointed at us and said, "You two -- you're out of here. Jenny (Devocht/Linson, at the time WDC FLB, now under lock and key in the SP room), take them to the galley, have them scrub the floors, and maybe that will destimulate the evil purposes they're dramatizing."

So off we went to the galley, and that's where we stayed.

Now that I look back, I may have lost on The Apprentice, but I won in the end. Those other poor schlubs had to take it for weeks more, and then years more, and it just kept getting worse.

More later...
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
I may have flunked the first test, just to be offloaded. Scrubbing a floor has got to be better than dealing with DM.
 

XGO

Patron
He pointed at us and said, "You two -- you're out of here. Jenny (Devocht/Linson, at the time WDC FLB, now under lock and key in the SP room), take them to the galley, have them scrub the floors, and maybe that will destimulate the evil purposes they're dramatizing."

So off we went to the galley, and that's where we stayed.

This (assigned to the galley) happened to me back when I was working at ASHO. I was the Temp/HAS (actually only 1 of 2 people in HCO) while the other person in HCO was out recruiting.

I was EXTREMELY overloaded, so I wrote a CSW to assign the next recruit as the HCO Cope officer (which is totally according to LRH policy). Instead of getting a "declined" on my CSW, their "handling" was to send me to the galley. I never understood why, as I was good staff, and worked my ass off! :confused2:

Anyway, I was actually very relieved to be in the galley as: 1) the galley staff were nice, 2) less pressure, 3) we could eat whatever/whenever we wanted, 4) work was easy, compared to other posts.
 
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Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
This (assigned to the galley) happened to me back when I was working at ASHO. I was the Temp/HAS (actually only 1 of 2 people in HCO) while the other person in HCO was out recruiting.

I was EXTREMELY overloaded, so I wrote a CSW to assign the next recruit as the HCO Cope officer (which is totally according to LRH policy). Instead of getting a "declined" on my CSW, their "handling" was to send me to the galley. I never understood why, as I was good staff, and worked my ass off! :confused2:

Anyway, I was actually very relieved to be in the galley as: 1) the galley staff were nice, 2) less pressure, 3) we could eat whatever/whenever we wanted, 4) work was easy, compared to other posts.

See, they can't follow policy. You write a CSW and they put you on mest work. At least it was nicer for you.
 

Twin A

Patron with Honors
Hi Notnuts,

Welcome to the board, glad you are posting :coolwink:

Hey, do you remember that weird rule at the FH that staff could not walk through the FH Lobby to get places? They had to go the long way around to get outside the building or to even go over to the Lemon Tree or to get to an elevator door?

The Gold event/video crew, when at the FH for events, had to follow this rule as well. There was one day, I think it was right when the rule was new around '94 ish --- I was walking through the Lobby anyway. I didn't give a sh__, even if it was apparently a "COB order" and someone from CMO CW caught me and was about to scream at me when a pubic person, really well dressed and nice looking walked up to me with a bunch of her friends and grabbed me and gave me a big hug. She said, "Oh my God, Mo, so nice to see you!" It was Jane Allen, Jerry Boswell, his wife, and some others. They all liked me, I'd helped on their IAS medal winner videos. Jerry invited me to sit with them in the Lobby for a bit. They were laughing and telling stories about seeing me work. Jerry imitated me on one shot I'd had to do of him walking up the steps of a government building in Austin, Texas. He pretended to hold a camera and then said (trying to imitate me being pouty towards my Director), "I'm doing a follow focus, a pan, a tilt, an aperture change and a zoom at the same time, and the sun is setting and pointing right into my lense... this shot is f____ impossible!" Then he said he'd looked at the shot played back and it looked great, I'd gotten it on the first take. They all laughed, they thought it was funny how I complained how impossible something was and then got it done anyway, making it look easy. Man, I hated that shot... it was pure luck that I'd gotten it right, but I had not told them that. It truly was an impossible shot to do with only two hands. I would have never been able to repeat it on another take on purpose.

The CMO CW Messenger that was about to yell at me for breaking the "don't walk through the Lobby rule" gave up and started to walk away. I just waved at her and smiled. I thought , "Ha, aren't you jealous? Wouldn't you like to have a fan club?"
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ah yes, those lovely days on the decks at OGH.

I've got a story for you about the decks. It's actually how I ended up at Flag. A lot of my old friends from Gold who read this board never knew how I suddenly ended up there -- now you will. I call it "The Apprentice on Steroids".

I was on the decks for some time at Gold. The exact reason escapes me now, honestly. I spent most of the time in the 100 degree sun hauling rocks and doing other menial labor. Meals were always whatever was left over after everyone else had eaten. Security Guards were there to watch my every move.

After a few weeks I was approached by someone in HCO and told that I was going to come off the decks and be reposted as a dishwasher. That lasted all of four hours, when I got yanked out of the dish room and put back in Marketing to do "expeditor" work (i.e. grunt work). Then one night, about 11 p.m., I was approached by someone from HCO telling me that I was going to be reposted immediately as a Books Marketing Manager, because they didn't have one and it was a major flap with DM who was at Flag at the time (still dealing with the McPherson case).

I didn't want to do this -- I'd been that route before and I knew what I was in for working with him -- but somehow they convinced me and that night I was on a plane to Flag to work on a project for him with Dan Koon, Jeff Hawkins and others. This was in the first stages of what everyone now knows as the Golden Age of Knowledge.

We all took the red eye to Tampa, got to Flag and had a few minutes to freshen up before we were whisked into our first meeting with him. He paced around the conference room, smoking like a chimney (of course no one else could smoke in his presence), and told us that he was sick and tired of the way nobody could handle marketing except for him. Sort of like he was always telling us that nobody could do ANYTHING except for him. Well, pretty soon he's going to get his wish, because he'll be the only one left.

So, back to the story. He said he had a plan to find out who could cut it and who couldn't: He would give us 7 specific tasks to do over the next few days, and if any of us failed at any one of them, we would be instantly offloaded.

We all got our first assignment and went off to do it. We had an hour. When we were called back to the "board room" all of us had managed to get through this.

He then gave us the next task, and the next, each time setting a time limit and each time seeing who made it and who didn't. So far so good. These all had to do with books and marketing.

I can just imagine how it must have looked to the staff an public at Flag, these Int Base staff members running around the base with this hunted look in their eyes, trying to get these tasks done, and being followed around by RTC staff watching our every move.

I was getting pretty tired of this by now -- I didn't see where it was going at all. Then he told us that our next task was to go to the Flag AO and sell a lecture series to a public. We had one hour. It had to be one of the "Premier Series" lectures. So off we went. I didn't get a lecture sold in that hour, and was in terror when I went back in to the "board room". He went around the table, pointing at each person and saying, "Did YOU sell?" "YOU?" "YOU?" There were five yes'es and two no's. The no's were me and one other girl.

He pointed at us and said, "You two -- you're out of here. Jenny (Devocht/Linson, at the time WDC FLB, now under lock and key in the SP room), take them to the galley, have them scrub the floors, and maybe that will destimulate the evil purposes they're dramatizing."

So off we went to the galley, and that's where we stayed.

Now that I look back, I may have lost on The Apprentice, but I won in the end. Those other poor schlubs had to take it for weeks more, and then years more, and it just kept getting worse.

More later...

What I do not get about this is the training on the tone scale.

He was handleing everyone with threats.

That falls within a specific tone level which is in direct measurment with a person's bank.

If you have read Science of Survival please tell us how someone there did not confront the fact this guy could not even be a clear?

This is really elementary school stuff in Scn.

It is obvious the man at the top is not even a clear.

Were any of you there even trained as an auditor?

People keep blaming Bush for the condition of the USA.

Well, who voted for him second term? Not me!

More interesting to me than DM, is, I would like to know what you were thinking at this time.

Did you think something was awfully wrong?

Did you think this guy could not be a clear?

Did you notice his tone level and method of handleing others was a bit primitive?

Did you think he was low toned?

Had you ever read Dianetics or Science of Survival?

Could you believe the power he had and asked yourself WHY?

Were the others propitiating to him seemingly in the know about anything with regards to human character and tone?

Do you think any of them were trained or auditors or clear?

Because, this side information is important really.

It's one thing to report about the consequences it's another thing to undertsand why.

I didn't have these experiences with him that you write about, but I had brief interludes where I noticed his manners were horrific, he was very self important, he handled people with threat threat threat and all the little symbols on his uniform obviously self awarded and bought in shops in Hollywood, and he was obviously in WAR MODE in civilian terrirtory where no war existed. I half think the wars on Scientology are pulled in by him. He is not happy without war, he is a soldier. He thinks, ....obviously just a criminal otherwise and a corperate scammer.

I mean, I went all the way to the top and saw people so far removed from being "Scientologists".....did you notice this?

I knew Jenny, she is obviously not locked up in any SP room as she was in Florida visiting DM's niece but when I knew her she was about the most sadistic human being I ever saw in the Sea Org. Did you see how she was keyed in to sadism? Her abuses on violations against human rights could be a 60 minutes show and she was born in to Hollywood royalty with a silver spoon. Did you think for a minute that girl was clear?

Uniforms do not equal knowledge or sanity.

I think this is obvious at this time.

Do you think the people you knew practicing sadism had read books or gotten trained or audited?

Did you notice all of the sp pts tech had been deleted from any basic training so nobody knew anything about SP's?

May I enquire, A. How much time you were on staff and B. How much Scientology you actually experienced in that time? Like, did you move up the bridge or read any books by Hubbard or get any training while you were part of the most dedicated Scientology group on the planet?

I would like to know about some of these other data if you would be so kind.

Best,

T.O.

P.S. I am sorry you went through that.
 

NotNuts

Patron
How did I not see all this? Boy, don't think I haven't thought about that nearly every day since I left.

It sort of works this way: Keep someone sleep deprived for years (we were sleeping an average of 3-4 hours a night for many years, many times not at all), keep them undernourished, and constantly drum into them how ineffective they are in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, then spend the majority of session time sec checking them so that they are as introverted as possible, and a person, no matter how intelligent, starts to believe there is something truly wrong with them.

I saw it in myself, I saw it in others who are now out, I saw it over and over again.

The other thing you have to know is that by the time a person gets to Int, you've been through the mill in terms of sec checking for any evil purposes against LRH or Int Management. And I have to tell you, there were times that I did look at the Chart of Human Evaluation and think, "Hmmm... what the hell is going on here?" but that would last about 5 minutes before I started thinking, "I can't think that way, I'm just out-ethics."

As for my own case and training -- no tech training, got up to OT III in the SO (but not at Int -- at Flag) and I did a lot of Admin training.

But it's heavy, heavy indoctrination, heavy punishment and degradation. What can I say?

I don't feel proud of my past and what I've been through, but I feel much wiser in many ways. I'm still working through a lot, and posting here definitely helps, because I know I'm not the only one!
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
You aren't alone. No. I went through it for six years.

I just went through it with an opposite view.

I was keenly aware the uniforms were bought by the people at a shop in Hollywood, most of them really had no personal interest in Scientology, most of them had no training or auditing, most of them were keyed in and very pts. Most of them if not all could not spot source and were so introverted they were not even looking outwards. And the sadism and masocism was blatant.

Most of them that thought they had a lot of power didn't even have a drivers license or know how to fill out a lease to rent an apartment.

My biggest problem wasn't me, it was them.

I didn't see them as OT's, I saw them as desperate overworked underpaid burnt out afraid if not hysterical people dressed up in these costumes and instead of running for their lives they were working for their lives. They thought horrible threats were outside of the building and inside of the building as well. Many, afraid to walk on the street!

The pts sp course had been omitted from the basic training so if they hadn't trained about it before they joined they didn't even know about suppression unless it was told to them on goldenrod.

And on the flip side of that were the suppressors and prison guards. Who were prisoners themselves to some guard on top of them. Policing volunteer workers and "product officering" them.

The biggest glaring outpoint was, if they thought Scientology was so damned useful why they were not using it? I didn't see many people at all even using the ARC triangle.

It finally occurred to me the whole package was not even about Scientology.

I still don't exactly know what it is about. Because if you work to use any of the tech you find out in short order you aren't even on the same page with the others. Unless you are auditing in an HGC and forced to wear a tech hat.
And people are expected to be very out of ARC with the environment beyond the front gates and avoid it at all possible costs. If you are sent beyond the villiage you are sec checked as soon as you returned to find out if you had any type of ARC with the world beyond.

When you left did you even feel hunted? Afraid they would find you? Once you changed your mind about being part of that did the hunters and dangers suddenly shift to what was inside that building and not out? Could you even say good by to one person you may have wanted to remain friends with and leave a phone number to be contacted?

That's just how looney that place is.

And David Miscavidge is not there on the same terms as one other person.

He pays himself and his wife thousands of dollars a week. He doesn't take orders from anyone. He has no senior. Nobody writes KR's on him, he doesn't have to worry about any justice actions. He can take off and travel around and come and go unquestioned and make all the calls he wants and visit anyone he wants and eat where and what he wants and even has his uniforms custom made. Body guards and custom cars and friends in high places beyond the villiage walls.

He has NOTHING in common with the rest.

So go figure!

He himself is not willing to experience the Sea Org as the others are. And he doesn't!

And either did Hubbard for that matter.

I am so glad you walked out of that madness and illusion.

Very good for you!

All in all, welcome to what really can be and is for us in this culture, a very decent world most of the time!

Eat well, sleep well, love well, live well, have well, be well and good luck to you.

T.O.
 
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Kookaburra

Gold Meritorious Patron
How did I not see all this? Boy, don't think I haven't thought about that nearly every day since I left.

It sort of works this way: Keep someone sleep deprived for years (we were sleeping an average of 3-4 hours a night for many years, many times not at all), keep them undernourished, and constantly drum into them how ineffective they are in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, then spend the majority of session time sec checking them so that they are as introverted as possible, and a person, no matter how intelligent, starts to believe there is something truly wrong with them.

I saw it in myself, I saw it in others who are now out, I saw it over and over again.

The other thing you have to know is that by the time a person gets to Int, you've been through the mill in terms of sec checking for any evil purposes against LRH or Int Management. And I have to tell you, there were times that I did look at the Chart of Human Evaluation and think, "Hmmm... what the hell is going on here?" but that would last about 5 minutes before I started thinking, "I can't think that way, I'm just out-ethics."

As for my own case and training -- no tech training, got up to OT III in the SO (but not at Int -- at Flag) and I did a lot of Admin training.

But it's heavy, heavy indoctrination, heavy punishment and degradation. What can I say?

I don't feel proud of my past and what I've been through, but I feel much wiser in many ways. I'm still working through a lot, and posting here definitely helps, because I know I'm not the only one!

Welcome to the board, NotNuts.

How indeed did this happen really is the burning question that I think everyone is here to resolve. Scientology will be a fascinating sociological study far into the future, I think. It ranks with Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia as some of the wildest suppression that has occurred in the last century.

I was lucky enough to get in in the 70's when things were periodically nutty but interspersed with fun and comradery. I was also lucky enough to have studied the Milgram Experiment, prior to getting into Scn, which gave me a most healthy suspicion of, and challenging attitude to authority figures. And I was tech trained. Pre GAT. And I got OUT in '91, before the reign of terror got into full swing.

I am astounded to hear that the PTS/SP course has disappeared. In the late 70's it was actually made part of basic hatting.

Recently I ran across the Stanford Prison Experiments. Also a good read on how such things can happen. We need a few just as good experiments on how to proof people up against such things.

Stanford Prison Experiment
The Milgram Experiment
Milgram - Perils of Authority

If I can isolate a major error in how Scn was set up, it would have to be the military structure, with a command line and orders which must be obeyed and people who must be reported to and people who must be asked for permission to act, not just in organizational matters, but then extending into personal lives as well. It's just set up to go bat-shit crazy. People who scratch and claw their way to the top in such an organization do so because they like power. The type of people who like power are not the sort of people I want running my life, thank-you very much.

Second major error: The whole dramatization of paranoia that pervades the organization. People are out to get us. How to handle attacks. Enemies. Plants. Always attack, never defend. Use the lawsuit to harass. Anyone who leaves is an enemy. Fair game your enemies.......etc etc. What comes to light after you are out is that this was Hubbard's case, pure and simple. This would never, never be admitted by CoS, and probably never accepted by a true believer, but LRH was a paranoid schizophrenic. Add to this an insatiable lust for money. I think he did all the research into the mind largely in an effort to resolve his own mental problems. It might have worked, but unfortunately for Ron, he had a tremendous amount of altitude, making it very difficult to find an auditor who would take him on. So his own aberrations got the better of him.

What followed on from the above was the Sea Org and its corporate maze of deception. And SP declares and disconnections. Disconnection is purely and simply instituted and used by DM as a threat to keep people in line. And very effective it is. How many people in Scn and out of it don't dare open their mouth for fear of losing a loved one? How many disconnect from a parent, spouse or child because they are threatened with losing their eternal salvation?

Forced abortion is another DM special. What the hell does it do to someone's mind to be force to kill their own child. And how, after that, could they admit to themselves that it was all for naught. But that follows far far later on the chain than the authoritarian set-up. It couldn't have happened without the regimentation of the SO.

Contrast the Sea Org with another religious practice. Vipassana (Buddhist) Meditation Retreats. They too have courses. They are free. If you do their 10 day course and you think it was worthwhile, you have the option of making a donation to cover someone else's course. That sum would be $200 which covers the instruction plus room and board. If you do two courses and still want to continue, they would like you to do a service period of 10 days, where you help with administration, cooking or whatever. This is irrespective of whether you have made any donations or how much they were. Then do your next free course, etc. Could you see Scn being run this way? I could, but not in the CoS. Oddly enough, this meditation centre isn't in any financial strife, has no shortage of public, and no-one is sueing them. Imagine that!

And how to avoid travesties such as Aushwitz and Int base in the future? Maybe something along the lines of a proofing up of kids in school on the subject of authority, and when rules should be followed and when they shouldn't. How to make moral decisions on your own. How to maintain your own integrity in the face of bullying. And most importantly, some human rights legislation with some teeth.

My 2 cents.

Regards,

Kookaburra
 

Lee_from_phx

Patron with Honors
I've read several stories about people who left in which the cult pursued them. In some cases the cult actually caught up with them and somehow "made" them come back.

In this case NotNuts drove off and didn't come back, and even went as far as to try and cover his tracks.

What I'd love to know is, what exactly would the cult DO if they did find someone who'd run off?

I'm sure that some will say kidnap the person, but I have to doubt that, simply because the consequences of being caught would be so severe.

I've always wondered how it is that people don't simply WALK AWAY from places like PAC or flag.

What exactly is the cult's goon squad supposed to do if and when they find someone who has "blown?"
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I've read several stories about people who left in which the cult pursued them. In some cases the cult actually caught up with them and somehow "made" them come back.

In this case NotNuts drove off and didn't come back, and even went as far as to try and cover his tracks.

What I'd love to know is, what exactly would the cult DO if they did find someone who'd run off?

I'm sure that some will say kidnap the person, but I have to doubt that, simply because the consequences of being caught would be so severe.

I've always wondered how it is that people don't simply WALK AWAY from places like PAC or flag.

What exactly is the cult's goon squad supposed to do if and when they find someone who has "blown?"

The simple answer is that the chains are the chains of the mind.

The 'handlers' yank the chains.

I don't doubt that in *some* cases, more brutal force is and has been used, but, for the most part, it's the Cult indoctrination that holds people.

Zinj
 

Lee_from_phx

Patron with Honors
That was kind of what I figured.

"If you leave you'll DIE of EBOLA within 6 weeks!!!"

"You'll be DECLARED and lose your ETERNITY!!!"

And other assorted absurdities.
 

ThisFenceHurts

Patron with Honors
What's that quote about the Devil you know?

Your language, "friends", job, physical location, perceived future potential for spiritual advancement, love relationship, etc., etc. all would change if you just walk out.

Using Scn jargon, most of your stable data would be shaken or thrown out the window completely. No doubt that some will find the LRH statement obvious that if you shake or destroy someone's stable data, they get thrown into a confusion. Well, if all of a sudden I had to change all of the above, it would be very difficult to not be overwhelmed by the unknowns that I would face.

Look at all the people in the world who genuinely find fault with their relationships, jobs, families, location, etc. who do not walk away. People just aren't that good at facing change or the unknown.
 
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