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Patron with Honors
Hi, Folks.

I've been lurking for many months, and decided to participate a little more.

I am remaining anonymous, for the time being. That's just my situation - I'm still on good terms with the "Church." But getting out, at least publicly, would cause me a shitstorm of epic proportions. I know a lot of you here will understand all the ramifications with work, friends, family, etc.

I've been in since the early 1970's, so I remember when scn was fun. I haven't been actively on course since before this "golden age" business, but I've been in and around the orgs since that time, and I'm known. I'm a lifetime IAS member. Never did come up with that $40K for "patronage" :)

Anyway, I've had a major problem with the Dastardly Midget (DM) for a long time. It started maybe eight years ago, when I realized Scientology's PR was an utter disaster, to the point where I realized I was embarrassed to call myself a Scientologist.

That was my first point of contention - I work and socialize with many non-scn's and they don't know that I've been involved (because I stopped telling people I was an Scn...), so I hear what they say. They are all nice people, and not one of them has anything good to say about scn. I consider that DM's fault. That idiot needs to go walk around among the "normal folk" and realize the major shit sandwich that is Scientology's Public Image.

Then, of course, I realized I just couldn't afford it. As I grew older, I realized just how much $5,000.00 was (it seems everything good runs in multiples of $5K or so). I saw older scn's getting sick and dying with no money, no insurance... and no help from their church. Some had to call Catholic charities for their end-of-life care. After giving 10's and 100's of thousands, they have to call the Catholics to help out at the end? Hmmm....

At that point, I just said screw it, I'll start reading up on what the guys who got kicked out had to say. I used to be a Good Boy and not read entheta on the 'net.

I remembered meeting Rocky Stump, and being absolutely floored by that Kha Khan cert on his wall. I read what the Old Man wrote about Kha Khans, and damn, Rocky was like a friggin' god in my eyes. Years later, reading up on the 'net, I saw that he got declared. What? Something was very fishy there. Then I read that pretty much all of the old Saint Hill staff were declared. So, our big goal is to make our orgs the size of Old Saint Hill, which was run by a bunch of SP's? Another thing that made me go Hmmmmm....

The stories by the ex-staff had the ring of truth. I've done some garbage-digging for OSA, had certain people's trash spread out in my bathtub... and the "official word" is that Scientology doesn't do that anymore?? Well I did it so I know better. Cats like Jessie Prince, their stories rang true. That idiot who is the current spokes-hole for scn, I forget his name, the son of some big celebrity, totally reads like a liar to me. I've been around this since before he was born. He has no clue what he is doing.

Whether you agree with the "tech" or not, the point of Scientology, at least according to the old man when he was still somewhat lucid, is making good auditors who can help people. A problem for me was - here comes this wet-behind-ears-kid, nothing more than one of the Old Man's errand boys, who had no training, who probably couldn't even run a freakin' session of Book and Bottle to save his life, declaring Cl. XII's and taking over. What a tool.

And who sec-checks DM, anyway? He can't be fired, declared, demoted, busted down to the decks... that's a recipe for disaster. And that disaster is I/P. Thanks, DM.

Anyway, my fingers are tiring and I have a hot dog to eat, so enough for now...

Thanks for reading :D

I look forward to participating a bit more.



Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Welcome aboard Gus. I'd probably disagree with you as to the correct 'who' here, but, hey, you'll find plenty of people with your viewpoint. Feel free to share (as much as you feel comfortable with)



Patron with Honors
Hi, Zinj,

We may not disagree - there's more "whos" but that was just the first bit that came to mind... :)



Nice start, I too was involved in the days before DM's Reign of Terror and Tech Faggotry was implemented. The org environments were fun, and SO members were not inquisitors.

"But now those days are gone and I'm not so self assured, now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the doors." - Beatles

I look forward to hearing more.



I remembered meeting Rocky Stump, and being absolutely floored by that Kha Khan cert on his wall. I read what the Old Man wrote about Kha Khans, and damn, Rocky was like a friggin' god in my eyes. Years later, reading up on the 'net, I saw that he got declared. What? Something was very fishy there.


Just for the record, Rocky Stump was declared SP around the mid 1970s.

As with Hubbard's early attacks on Mission Holders in the 1970s, SP Declares were done more selectively. During its expansion period, in the 1960s and 1970s, Scientology's mental healing-coated people-machine needed both competent auditors and successful Mission Holders, and Hubbard knew it.

When Hubbard moved into the next phase, auditors and Mission Holders became expendable, en masse - with the focus becoming gathering and consolidating "his" money for his various monument-building and LRH-fan club ("perpetual"&legal trust-protected) projects - he used henchmen (#1 being Miscavige) to do the money-collecting and enforcing.

Hubbard would give the orders behind the scenes, and his henchmen - visibly - would carry out his orders.

This pattern had been useful throughout the history of Scientology, as Hubbard could say, later, "Oh, I didn't know, gosh, that's 'off-policy'," etc., then denounce the person who had been - in fact - following his instructions, and present himself as a white knight coming to the rescue. It was not unusual for the person previously attacked, and sometimes bled dry financially, to return to Scientology "in good standing," only to, at some later date, be attacked and bled dry again.

This recurring pattern has been described by such people as (former C/S International) David Mayo http://www.scs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm and former Mission Holder and founder of the Delphi School, Martin Samuels.

Martin Samuels, from 1986 interview:

"And look at this pattern... He [Hubbard] surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as 'managers'; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man who 'is this OT, the author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior'... surrounded himself with ruthless people - like Miscavige - who got there because they emulated Hubbard's savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

"And then after their hands were so bloody - and the only reason their hands were so bloody is that they were doing what Hubbard wanted - when it started to get to the point where it couldn't be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said, 'My God I didn't know!' Scapegoat. He even did this to his own wife who went to jail in his place."

From the 'Reflections' chapter, of the book, 'Messiah or Madman?'. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1090

It's remarkable that this pattern continues to this day.

As for the romantic notion that Scientology was "fun" in the 1970s, I can only suggest consulting the historical record - which includes the experiences of other people. The policy of "ruining utterly" through frivolous lawsuits dates from 1955, Sec Checks were being used to collect blackmail-able information as early as 1961, The 'Fair Game Law' dates from 1965, along with 'KSW' and the SP Doctrine. The G.O. was established in 1966, and I doubt that the people (including children) in the "Flagship's" chain locker, or Paulette Cooper when she was set up and framed for "bomb threats," were having much fun.

And the original 'Class 8 Course' was not only not much fun, but - it seems - fairly insane. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=177122&postcount=41

In any event, welcome to ESMB.


Gold Meritorious Patron
Welcome to ESMB! Thanks for a bit of your feelings.:thumbsup:

I think the name you're refering to is Tommy Davis. He's the one out lying for Scientology at any chance he can.


Leaving the C of $

Food for thought when you leave the Church. How is it that the Church of Scientology that proclaims itself to be the true movement of today’s freedom fighters cannot see that “true freedom” comes from not being trapped in their religious cult? By being in the Church of Scientology you are not free to think for yourself, only to tow the diatribe of L Ron Hubbard's ramblings. By Scientology’s standards you should be a participating member slave, willingly giving all your money, resources and time for the promise of Scientology’s forever-distant nirvana. To be “in” with the group, Scientologist must abandon their own common sense and become a true believer at any cost, a rubber-stamped out boot licking loyal slave to the upper management of Scientology, unwilling to hear any scientific sound criticisms of their “technical data”. As they progress deeper into the cult and invest more and more time and money they become aware that maybe there is a super state of being that was promised to them, but it is only another $20,000 dollars away and "after all I have come this far so why not continue"? Scientologist die, get cancer, have marriage break ups, get upset stomachs and headaches just like everyone else they call “raw meat public”. Their Scientology “OT Powers” don’t save them from the realities of being human not even from their own personal greed and petty vindictiveness. In the end when the Church has exhausted their members of all they can get they will invariably leave the C of S like thousands have done before only to find out that they are just “people” like everyone else. And if they stay out long enough they may also find that it’s not such a bad thing after all.

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
Welcome Gus. I understand your situation, and please take care of yourself and your family.
I've been in since the early 1970's, so I remember when scn was fun.
I keep hearing this from oldtimers like yourself, and find it very interesting. (I first got involved in the 1980s shortly before Hubbard's death, so I never experienced Scientology as "fun.") Torry speaks the same way.
Anyway, I've had a major problem with the Dastardly Midget (DM) for a long time.
I've seen a tendency among some oldtimers, and particularly oldtimers who recall when Scientology was "fun," to blame everything on DM. But, to be honest, didn't the abuse start before the Old Man passed away? And, more importantly, weren't the scriptural foundations for the abuse (e.g., Fair Game, Disconnection, Freeloader Debt, "Find the Ruin," KSW making Scientology non-falsifaible, etc.) in fact written by Ron?
I saw older scn's getting sick and dying with no money, no insurance... and no help from their church. Some had to call Catholic charities for their end-of-life care. After giving 10's and 100's of thousands, they have to call the Catholics to help out at the end?
This really struck home for me. It is why, after Scientology, I became a Christian, and in particular a nice, golden rule, "New Testament," and specifically Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Christian. (Well, ok, and also a bit of a Shikantaza practicing Buddhist. LOL) Because I preferred the ethics.

I think it says something that Catholic Charities will care for people who weren't Christians and haven't contributed bupkis to the Cathloic Church. Whereas, in contrast, one can have contributed thousands and thousands of dollars to the Church of Scientology but, when you can't contribute anymore, you are offloaded and/or ignored.

Then again, unlike Scientology (or at least unlike Scientology when it isn't asking people to contribute to the ISA, Ideal Orgs and Book Campaigns), Christianity and Buddhism do not have a doctrine of "exchange."

Those who the Church of Scientology offload Christian churches "inload." Food for thought.


Gold Meritorious Patron
:welcome: Gus - glad to have you here.:thumbsup:

Yep, it was a lot more fun when I started (in 1979) but I won't add my opinions on that to the list that this thread had already accumulated.:coolwink:

Understand that you can't give a lot of details just yet but I am looking forward to the time when you can. :drama:


Welcome Gus! :)

You've been in a long time, so ya would have seen many changes over the years for sure - The ones in recent years have been more bizarre than ever. :eyeroll:

Good on you for throwing in the towel - It'll only get better for ya from here on out, despite some ups and downs that tend to go hand in hand with looking at all this stuff, and with not having the freedom to communicate who wish to about it.

All the best!


Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
:welcome: Gus

I would think that would be terribly disconcerting as you age in Scientology to see the older people discarded like that. I've heard several stories of people who have given their lives to the church and then being treated like "downstats" when they were old and not "producing" as they once did.

I also remember being so embarrassed to admit that I was a Scientologist.

Congrats on making it out! You are in a difficult position. Hang in there.


Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Your Right On, Gus

All that you say I've also seen and experienced from the early '70's,
including Rocky Stump. It seems that SP's ignore Kha Khan's (of course).

Gus, did you read the story about when LRH kicked-the-bucket and
supposedly re-wrote his will while unconscious on drugs and after a
stroke (second) one week earlier ?
That will gave Scientology to the SP's, ultimately the IRS.
Google the Church of Spiritual Technology and Meade Emory.
LRH predicted in writing in 1965 exactly what happened to the org.

Gus, I don't know how much you have read, but I'll suggest a couple
of sites to save you time and lead to the truth:



www.friendsoflrh.org (currently "off-the-air" but will likely be back)

The book "Madman Or Messiah" by Bent Corydon seems to be the best to me.
I've read all of the better known ones. Wish I'd not waited so long to do it.

I've read over a hundred sites, actually much more, so if your looking for
something specific, just ask.

If you have any favorites, let us know.

Looking forward to more of your story at the time it indicates to you to tell.


Silver Meritorious Patron
Terrific to hear from you, Gus. I'm glad you've taken the plunge to mix with us SP's. Life is good after Scientology. Enjoy every breath you take in this new stage of your life and, one day, I'm sure you'll be able to publicly live the free life you can inwardly enjoy now.


Patron Meritorious
Greetings, good sir Gus. Welcome to the haven of insanity that is ESMB.

We're all looking forward with bated breath to your hot dog success stories :)