Flag repayment denied

TempID20100121

New Member
My FLAG repayment request was denied. :no: I would like your suggestions. :yes:

I'm using a temporary new account to post this. I'll delete it after I'm done with this thread. I have a regular ESMB account with more than a few posts. I just don't want them to associate my real name to it. :whistling:

I used the refund/repayment letter found here http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8652 as a guide. I changed it to make it my own. I left most of it the same. :thumbsup:

I also added (from another thread): "Please be advised that I have quit the Church of Scientology and may no longer be considered a member of the Church. Therefore, I am no longer subject to the rules and tenets of your organization, including "Suppressive Person" declares, "Ethics Orders" or any other Church of Scientology private or publication about me. Please be advised that any such orders, if issued, shall be considered harassment and libel and will be dealt with accordingly." :thumbsup:

The amounts were relatively small. About $1000 on account for un-used auditing hours that got credited to use for training only. I had about $100 on account for accommodations.

The letter denied a repayment of the $1000. They did agree to repay the $100 for accommodations. They included a "Release, Waiver, and Writ of Expulsion" to sign. It would eliminate the chance of joining the Class Action suit for IAS donations ($10K) at a later date, if that every came about.

Here's what the letter said:

Dear XXXX,

Your letter dated December XX was forwarded to me due to your threats of legal action.

I will do what I can to assist you in your request, but I notice your letter seems to be a "form" letter that you apparently think will achieve a faster result. Factually, however making threats of legal (or other) action can often cause delays (especially if attorneys actually get involved) and can potentially void any legitimate request you may have.

As the Church has no legal obligation to return donations to you, and does so solely under Church policy, it is much more expedient to simply follow the Church guidelines when making a request.

What is available to be returned to you is a total of $100.00.

The $1000.00 is not returnable under Church policy as it is a credit for training purposes, as indicated on your Parishioner Statement. Portions of an auditing intensive do not get returned if someone asks for their donations back. It is noted on your statement as credit you could utilize if you desired to do Church training and this practice is covered in HCO PL 6 July 1965:

"... the org may credit the person with that amount (of the unused balance of the intensive) toward training. If no training is going to be undertaken by the person, then, of course, there is no crediting."

Generally, if someone is going to have donations for services returned, they are required to do a routing form. However, because the amount is so small, I will not ask you to do so.

I have enclosed a release for you to sign. Once you have done so, please fax it to me with an acknowledgement that you have put the original in the mail and I will get the check cut for you and sent out.

Should you have any questions, please don't hesitate to let me know. A fax is the quickest way to reach me.

Sincerely,

Sarah Heller
Legal Director
Church of Scientology
Flag Service Organization

I thought I should be able to get a repayment of my money on account.
I thought repayments were easier to get these days.
I am not asking for a refund for services delivered.
I thought the routing form was not required, no matter the amount.
They seem to have their own "form" letter to combat our "form" letter.

What can I do? :confused2:

I want to get my $1100.00 so I can fee like dancing.
:happydance:
 

dianaclass8

Silver Meritorious Patron
Your problem was that you did legal threats...

In this country once you say you are going to resort to a lawyer...they say go ahead I will see you in court.

Best is to do it, like:

"I do not want to resort to a legal means to get what rightfully belongs to me, so let's part in an amicable way"

I would never threaten to sue the church unless I am billionaire...they have all the lawyers in the world and all the money.

The best way to get a refund is to be business like and be friendly.

That is how I got my refunds from ASHO, AOLA and Flag.


Diana
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
File a complaint with the FTC (you can do this online)
File a complaint with the district attorney in Flag's county
File a complaint with the district attorney in your county
Fax all of the above to Flag as well
 

dianaclass8

Silver Meritorious Patron
File a complaint with the FTC (you can do this online)
File a complaint with the district attorney in Flag's county
File a complaint with the district attorney in your county
Fax all of the above to Flag as well


You can also send a refund email to every single Flag staff member and include all the info on the suicides, Blown for Good and Nancy Many's books, as well as LRH's coroners report...

Maybe it is worth the $1,000 to get some staff open their eyes and leave:happydance:

Diana
 

TempID20100121

New Member
From what I've gathered by reading other people's posts, they seem to only listen to threats. The louder and meaner the better. If you ask nicely, in a friendly business-like manner, they will string you along forever, never calling back and never resolving anything. That's why I used the letter found in the link in my post. I'm surprised to hear it worked for you at ASHO, AOLA, and FLAG. Good news that it worked. It was probably easier on everyone. I would go that route if I thought it would work for me.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Also, don't forget to file a complaint with the IRS as they're essentially bound by what they told the IRS -- that they were refunding $.
 
I might be wrong here but from reading the response she gave you it appears that the $1000 was from unused auditing hours. Which means that the service has been debited & commission as been paid. I think that is where the problem is. In that case, whether your nice :yes: or threatening :grouch: I don't think you would get your $. Is that the situation, did you debited an intensive but not used all the hours & your trying to get the value of the left over hours which has already been transfered towards training?
 

Feral

Rogue male
If in fact the money is unused and on account, then go to the media.

SP times is pretty interested in all things Scientological these days.

You can also let every single scio friend of yours know via e-mail what a scam the repayment policy is.
 

KnightVision

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is an important point.

This is an important point. If these funds are from unused hours from a 'broken intensive' then your uphill climb will likely be long and perhaps end with nothing gained. If somehow you were to regain it... it would be very unusual AND you'd give up rights to your IAS donos.

If you are going to follow any of the advices given on 'going public' and or 'being noisy'... it might be better to also switch gears and just go after the IAS donos instead.

Just some thoughts.

I might be wrong here but from reading the response she gave you it appears that the $1000 was from unused auditing hours. Which means that the service has been debited & commission as been paid. I think that is where the problem is. In that case, whether your nice :yes: or threatening :grouch: I don't think you would get your $. Is that the situation, did you debited an intensive but not used all the hours & your trying to get the value of the left over hours which has already been transfered towards training?
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
Use the $1000 on a course, maybe extention course or something. Then blast through it and when done demand a refund....AS is OK per church policy.
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
TempID,

No, they (the CofS) do NOT respond to threats. You pissed them off.

Remember the old adage: you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

I'm guessing it was your first letter that threatened them. You hold your aces (threats) for your third, fourth or fifth letter. At this point, you need to back pedal and apologize for the threat. This is just my advice/suggestion.

Besides that, $1,000 is so not worth your time to go all legal on the CofS.
 

TempID20100121

New Member
I might be wrong here but from reading the response she gave you it appears that the $1000 was from unused auditing hours. Which means that the service has been debited & commission as been paid. I think that is where the problem is. In that case, whether your nice :yes: or threatening :grouch: I don't think you would get your $. Is that the situation, did you debited an intensive but not used all the hours & your trying to get the value of the left over hours which has already been transfered towards training?

Yes, the $1000 was from unused auditing hours. I went to Flag and got some general auditing, which they called a "Progress Program". I finished the program, and $1000 of unused auditing time is left on account.

If they had sold me a specific result for a specific price, and I finished early, then I could see them keeping the extra money/time. But in this case, where I prepaid auditing hours for a result with an unknown time requirement, then it doesn't seem right for them to keep the extra money/time.

The Flag Refund Letter here http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8652 says this:

Here is how I got my money from Flag. Please note this is not a refund but just getting money back that I had on account. Most on account for future services, some accomodations AND money from unused hours in folder. I remember I had just broken into an intensive. I got the money for around 11.5 hours in my folder, too! From the date of my first letter to them until I got the check was 30 days total.

It seems things have changed since that post was written, or perhaps the small amount ($1000) changes the way they are handling this one.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Yes, the $1000 was from unused auditing hours. I went to Flag and got some general auditing, which they called a "Progress Program". I finished the program, and $1000 of unused auditing time is left on account.

If they had sold me a specific result for a specific price, and I finished early, then I could see them keeping the extra money/time. But in this case, where I prepaid auditing hours for a result with an unknown time requirement, then it doesn't seem right for them to keep the extra money/time.

The Flag Refund Letter here http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8652 says this:

It seems things have changed since that post was written, or perhaps the small amount ($1000) changes the way they are handling this one.

It is just a process. Be calm, persist, stay in comm with them and they always give back the money. They have no choice. If the service was unused, you can and will get the funds returned.

They already have so MUCH bad PR floating around the Internet and media, and they are not about to add to it by failing to return unused funds.

TR3! And, no HE & R! :thumbsup:
 

AnonKat

Crusader
From what I've gathered by reading other people's posts, they seem to only listen to threats. The louder and meaner the better. If you ask nicely, in a friendly business-like manner, they will string you along forever, never calling back and never resolving anything. That's why I used the letter found in the link in my post. I'm surprised to hear it worked for you at ASHO, AOLA, and FLAG. Good news that it worked. It was probably easier on everyone. I would go that route if I thought it would work for me.

http://www.scientology-lies.com/help/refund.html

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=14530

http://www.carolineletkeman.org/sp/
 

freethinker

Sponsor
You are only looking for $1000. This could be done in Small Claims court as was done by this guy:

http://offdainnertube.blogspot.com/2010/01/scientology-loses-in-small-claims.html

You would be wise to get the infermation on the tax agreement with the IRS which can be found on the net and to know all the policies regarding refunds/repayments. Accept no other policies to divert you.

I have a question here: A couple of post s here said that if you sign a waiver you are eliminated from the IAS CAS.

Is that any waiver or only a waiver that says you have no further claim?
 

ScnRebel

Patron
When I did my repayment from Flag and the Advanced Org, they paid me back for the un-used hours in the folder. But they were still sitting in the folder as hours. I did not threaten to sue, and did the Routing Form, and was paid within 2 weeks from both of them.

Realise that there are 2 lines that you can get put on for the Refund:

1. Legal. This is when you threaten to sue. Here you bypass the whole Claims Verification Process, and it is up to the Legal Officer to handle the repayment. So whatever happens is totally up to that person.

2. Keeper of Tech. This is where the repayment is supposed to go. You ask for your money back, you get put on a routing form. You do the steps, or not, depending on how you feel. At the end of it, it goes up to the Claims Verification Board, and they verify everything is fine and they tell the Org to pay or not. Part of that is to pay you back for any hours in your folder.

How long it takes to get the money is then up to the Org and their finances. This is typically where things hang up in small Orgs, as they don't have the money to pay you back. So it is not that the claim has been rejected, just that the Org can't come up with the money, or has too many other legal flaps to handle, like they all do.

Based on what has happened to you and your claim, I would adivise people to not use the Legal route. The normal route works totally fine.

What should you do now? I would send a letter to the Keeper of Tech saying that you regret threatening to sue, and that you would like to get the refund done the standard way.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
TempID20100121,

Depending upon your state laws, you may have rights to file a claim in your county small claims court, using the registered agent address for Flag as the place for Flag Service Org to be served. Usually there is no need for a lawyer in small claims court. The judge decides based upon state and county law.

If you PM me and tell me what state and county you are in, I can get you the link to the form and particulars on how to proceed at the local court.

Flag would be served at this address, according to FL state law:
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.
c/o Registered Agent ROBERT V. POTTER
911 CHESTNUT STREET
CLEARWATER FL 33756 US

Mary McConnell
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron


Based on what has happened to you and your claim, I would adivise people to not use the Legal route. The normal route works totally fine.

...

Unfortunately not ScnRebel.

I went down the ‘normal’ route and they just ignored me despite previously promising prompt payment after I did the CVB form.

It was only after I engaged a lawyer and spoke to the press, my member of parliament, trade bodies etc, that I got my money back. And I didn’t sign their waiver!

And I know of several other people who all had the same problem. The orgs pretend to be helpful, string you along and then try to ignore you in the hope that you will get fed up and go away.

Axiom142
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
TempID20100121,

Depending upon your state laws, you may have rights to file a claim in your county small claims court, using the registered agent address for Flag as the place for Flag Service Org to be served. Usually there is no need for a lawyer in small claims court. The judge decides based upon state and county law.

If you PM me and tell me what state and county you are in, I can get you the link to the form and particulars on how to proceed at the local court.

Flag would be served at this address, according to FL state law:
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.
c/o Registered Agent ROBERT V. POTTER
911 CHESTNUT STREET
CLEARWATER FL 33756 US

Mary McConnell

This sounds the best route. :thumbsup:

And when it goes to court, make sure you tip off the press, preferably the SP Times. The cult deserves to get some more bad publicity for this. If they had any sense, they’d realise that it is not worth fighting over $1,000.

But whatever you do, do not sign anything that limits your rights to get a refund of any IAS ‘donations’.

Axiom142
 
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