For people wondering how OT IX and X are going to be explained away

[justaguy]

It's really simple, really, if the church is smart about it. So... Hubbard dropped his body, right? And is doing research, right? Well, then, it's a simple matter of him using his newfound super-OT powers to make OT IX and OT X suddenly apparate on David Miscavige's desk.

If the coverup is done well (this is where scientology would fail hard) then you've got a bunch of culties with more proof of OT powerz and new levels for them to give their money to.

However, from what little I've heard about how they're approaching the topic, they're not even that smart, and I came up with the idea in about 20 seconds.

In any case, OT IX and X could be released in a way that would satisfy much of the flock. I have a feeling how they actually do it is going to be a major footbullet because that's how they roll.

 

[Fancy]

Don't give them ideas.

Barb

 

[clamicide]

It's already been handled. At the big "IRS WIN" rally, it was announced that the parameters for releasing OT IX and X had been put in place (think that they said it was what Ron stated before his death, but I could be wrong on that part). OT IX and X had to be delivered in a safe space, and there would be such a boom that public would be flocking in when folks were auditing on these high levels so taking out IRS was target one and DONE; the others included taking down psychiatry and every org reaching St. Hill size. uh, yeah. DM must have been laughing his ass off at folks buying that those targets were even possibly attainable. So, per those targets, the levels will never be released. Their little non-existence will stay non-existent. See, no worries!

 

[The Clam]

Check this out. I was at a flag event at philly org and they had this green scn sea orger who said that the church has all the upper ot levels ready to go but if they produced any ot 13 then the orgs would be flooded with millions of people seeking scn. After he said that I looked around the room to see the reaction of the audience. Put it this way they all had their shovels ready to dig thru the bullshit. I don't think anyone brought that bullshit.

 

[RolandRB]

Check this out. I was at a flag event at philly org and they had this green scn sea orger who said that the church has all the upper ot levels ready to go but if they produced any ot 13 then the orgs would be flooded with millions of people seeking scn. After he said that I looked around the room to see the reaction of the audience. Put it this way they all had their shovels ready to dig thru the bullshit. I don't think anyone brought that bullshit.

You're supposed to all gasp and go "Wow" and "Wheeee". Sounds like a bunch of SPs to me. I hope they got regged for every cent they could borrow in a hundred lifetimes before they were let out of that place.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: OT IX and OT X

Pierre Ethier had something on his website about OT 9 and 10 saying that one of them, I believe OT 9 had to do with understanding the universe of others and that the Church, being fully into the 3rd and 4th dynmics would not want to release something promoting more understanding of the universe of others.

To me, it seems akin to what is happening with Super Power. Obviously, stats would go up and more money would flow in if Super Power, OT 9 and OT10 were released but the Church seems determined not to release them.

This brings up the question of how long the Church can keep the same small group of "OT's" cycling through OT 7 & 8 and the L's. It seems impossible that they could again find some missing tech or make a new breakthrough such as Golden Age and force the same people to cycle through again.

Maybe that is why they are shifting gears and puting their main emphasis on acquiring real estate and making that real estate very posh. It is a good system for the Church, the members go into hock and pony up huge sums of money to purchase the buildings and the Church takes title to them, and then the members, now financially overextended, are asked to dig deeper to pay for the design and furnishing phase. Its hard to figure out what upper management's thoughts are and what they are trying to do.
lkwdblds

 

[RolandRB]

Pierre Ethier had something on his website about OT 9 and 10 saying that one of them, I believe OT 9 had to do with understanding the universe of others and that the Church, being fully into the 3rd and 4th dynmics would not want to release something promoting more understanding of the universe of others.

To me, it seems akin to what is happening with Super Power. Obviously, stats would go up and more money would flow in if Super Power, OT 9 and OT10 were released but the Church seems determined not to release them.

This brings up the question of how long the Church can keep the same small group of "OT's" cycling through OT 7 & 8 and the L's. It seems impossible that they could again find some missing tech or make a new breakthrough such as Golden Age and force the same people to cycle through again.

Maybe that is why they are shifting gears and puting their main emphasis on acquiring real estate and making that real estate very posh. It is a good system for the Church, the members go into hock and pony up huge sums of money to purchase the buildings and the Church takes title to them, and then the members, now financially overextended, are asked to dig deeper to pay for the design and furnishing phase. Its hard to figure out what upper management's thoughts are and what they are trying to do.
lkwdblds

There is a big problem with SuperPower and that is its obvious bottleneck of the fun ride at the end. If they only have one room in which to do this then they can only process one person at a time. Let's say on average it take two days to get the E/P of this then the maximum they can get people through SuperPower is one person every two days. This is not fast enough. If this final rundown is one tenth of the full processing and the other processing takes 18 days then there is not much point in having more than ten people on this course at any one time. So they have set up this huge building and can only sensibly allow ten people on the full SuperPower rundown at any time. The Dwarf f*cked up big time.

 

[lkwdblds]

Having to have before you can do

Roland - Thanks for pointing out the bottleneck on Super Power, I had no idea that was the case. You'd think that DM and his staff would have easily figured that out before they began to collect the 100 million from the public to erect the building and then designed the building and the rundown to circumvent this bottleneck.

Management seems to be violating two rules: They now routinely have to have before they can do (erecting Ideal Orgs in the belief that it will create more members instead of to service a huge demand from existing members); then once they have something, they do not even use it but let it sit idle.
They then have the audacity to claim that they are experts in management!
lkwdblds

 

[Dulloldfart]

Roland - Thanks for pointing out the bottleneck on Super Power, I had no idea that was the case.

This is Roland's supposition, not the case at all. In my experience, if such a bottleneck appears they will do what they can to remove it. Now, "what they can" would mean in agreement with whatever arbitraries are being enforced at the time, but I don't see that having only one such room — if that does turn out to be a bottleneck — is likely to be one of them.

Paul

 

[xseaorguk]

I'm sure if money gets tight at some time, then some magical 'new' levels will appear.
It is how it has worked until now, which has been successful for the choich, so they will contunue to think up reasons to get more and more money out of their sheep, even if the numbers are dwindling, there will always be enough of them to keep the cult financially afloat.
What is needed is some serious investigation in several countries, as in France and someone having the guts to ban them, which would probably set off a chain-reaction.
Miscavige lives his celebrity lifestyle and is not going to give it up just cos the stats are down.

 

[lkwdblds]

No need to ban something falsely propped up...

I am not for a ban on the Church. They have the right to compete in the open marketplace for the hearts and minds of people the same as other self help groups. I am convinced that the only thing that enables them to continue to make money and wield their influence is that they have a religious exemption from paying taxes and do pay less than 10% of minimum wage, no overtime, etc. This is an artificial prop which tilts the playing field in their favor. If the religious exemption is withdrawn, they have to pay at least minimum wage, pay time and a half for overtime and double time for Sunday's and holidays, allow paid vacatioins, pay health insurance, contibute to retirement plans, etc. as do other self help groups They should be on a level playing field with other groups so they succeed or fail on their own merits. I believe they would collapse financially within 2 months. That would be much better than a govenment ban.
lkwdblds

 

[Panda Termint]

Probably more like 2 weeks but good post all the same!

 

[alex]

Pierre Ethier had something on his website about OT 9 and 10 saying that one of them, I believe OT 9 had to do with understanding the universe of others and that the Church, being fully into the 3rd and 4th dynmics would not want to release something promoting more understanding of the universe of others.

To me, it seems akin to what is happening with Super Power. Obviously, stats would go up and more money would flow in if Super Power, OT 9 and OT10 were released but the Church seems determined not to release them.

This brings up the question of how long the Church can keep the same small group of "OT's" cycling through OT 7 & 8 and the L's. It seems impossible that they could again find some missing tech or make a new breakthrough such as Golden Age and force the same people to cycle through again.

Maybe that is why they are shifting gears and puting their main emphasis on acquiring real estate and making that real estate very posh. It is a good system for the Church, the members go into hock and pony up huge sums of money to purchase the buildings and the Church takes title to them, and then the members, now financially overextended, are asked to dig deeper to pay for the design and furnishing phase. Its hard to figure out what upper management's thoughts are and what they are trying to do.
lkwdblds

Whats the second bulletin on every course?

Tech degrades.

What happened when the bridge was changed to put nots in as ot levels rather than the rundowns they were designed to be (and the "old OT levels replaced)? Tech degrade.

I believe the nots rundowns are needed, but the old ot levels actually produced OT abilites that were an advancement of human potential, while the new NOTS ot levels are more removing the negative.

What happened with the Happiness rundown? People got happy and got out of fixed conditions, and some left the church. Is the happiness rundown pushed anymore? no.

Super power was written devised to handle masses of people at all levels of reality, what has happened? Decades of delays.

Will there be an effective OT 9 and 10? Of course not. OT 8 has hardly produced spectacular gains.

Nothing since miscavage took over the church, has been in the direction of success.

OT7 is kludged with arbirtrary sec checks that screw up people and make it difficult if not impossible to complete. Yet at one time people glowed and sparkled at the end.

We all know that any thing that comes out from the current regime is going to be a mess. Whoops thats a generalization. I know.

Any one who has been around a while can see that whatever comes out will be the best thing since sliced bread, not from results, but from Command Intention. Funny command intention=CI=counter intention?

Kinda like a valence shift....the thrust of the church reverses vector.

 

[alex]

I am not for a ban on the Church. They have the right to compete in the open marketplace for the hearts and minds of people the same as other self help groups. I am convinced that the only thing that enables them to continue to make money and wield their influence is that they have a religious exemption from paying taxes and do pay less than 10% of minimum wage, no overtime, etc. This is an artificial prop which tilts the playing field in their favor. If the religious exemption is withdrawn, they have to pay at least minimum wage, pay time and a half for overtime and double time for Sunday's and holidays, allow paid vacatioins, pay health insurance, contibute to retirement plans, etc. as do other self help groups They should be on a level playing field with other groups so they succeed or fail on their own merits. I believe they would collapse financially within 2 months. That would be much better than a govenment ban.
lkwdblds

The religious workers rules will not be withdrawn, too many other religions also rely on them.

 

[lkwdblds]

Reply to Panda Termint and Alex

Panda Termint - The only reason I give them 2 months is because it might take 6 weeks to burn up their large reserves, if they didn't have those then I agree on 2 weeks!

Alex - Good post - interesting read, well stated. You make a good point about what happened when NOTS replaced the previous upper OT Levels. One unforseen consequence of that action was that OT8 was developed thinking that all those on OT8 would have completed the previous OT5, OT6, and OT7 but none of the newer people had done those levels so the OT8 level was a huge skipped gradient for most of those who first did it. As for your second post, as long as they are considered a religion, what you say is true. However, I think they ceased being a religion a long time ago, probably around the early 80's. What they really are is a for profit corporation selling self help courses. I think it was Roger B. who suggested they be called "The Hubbard Method". They also seem to be a for profit real estate acquisition and renovation company which applies "The Hubbard Method" to acquire wealth. What has to happen is for them to lose their standing as a religion. They need to be put on a level playing field with other self help groups and not other religions.
lkwdblds

 

[alex]

Panda Termint - The only reason I give them 2 months is because it might take 6 weeks to burn up their large reserves, if they didn't have those then I agree on 2 weeks!

Alex - Good post - interesting read, well stated. You make a good point about what happened when NOTS replaced the previous upper OT Levels. One unforseen consequence of that action was that OT8 was developed thinking that all those on OT8 would have completed the previous OT5, OT6, and OT7 but none of the newer people had done those levels so the OT8 level was a huge skipped gradient for most of those who first did it. As for your second post, as long as they are considered a religion, what you say is true. However, I think they ceased being a religion a long time ago, probably around the early 80's. What they really are is a for profit corporation selling self help courses. I think it was Roger B. who suggested they be called "The Hubbard Method". They also seem to be a for profit real estate acquisition and renovation company which applies "The Hubbard Method" to acquire wealth. What has to happen is for them to lose their standing as a religion. They need to be put on a level playing field with other self help groups and not other religions.
lkwdblds

In the united states, the government is not allowed to determine what is and is not a religion.

The government can only determine if the activities that are tax exempt are in support of the beliefs the religion claims and are not contrary to public good.

The catholic church for instance owns many large profit making corporations that help to fund it and are vehicles for its investments. This is allowed because the money that comes in is used in support of its beliefs.

Removing the religious status of the Church of Scientology would effectively ban the practice of it, the a thorny constitutional problem I dont think the goverment wants.



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Considering that the church has supposedly 10 billion in reserves it would take a bit longer than 6 weeks to burn through it.

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I am of the opinion that OT 8 as currently constituted is less than what Ron intended, but hacked together with the misguided "help" of miscavage.

 

[Zinjifar]

In Hernandez V. Commissioners the US Supreme Court held that:

The payments for auditing or training sessions do not satisfy the "contribution or gift" inquiry necessary for deductibility under IRC §170.

The IRS decided it didn't like this decision and granted the deductions anyway, which leads us to the lawsuit and appeals by Michael and Marla Sklar which is currently I believe before the 9th Circuit Court.

The wheels grind slowly but fine and it's to be hoped that:

1) the current tax deduction contrary to the Supreme Court ruling will be abolished.
2) the actual full text and provenance of the Scientology/IRS agreement will be made public.

Zinj

 

[Dulloldfart]

Removing the religious status of the Church of Scientology would effectively ban the practice of it <snip>

Why? They were around before the IRS about-face in 1993.

Paul

 

[8-8008]

I was told not too long ago that now the church is trying to get their paper works changed. What does this mean ? well apparently, they want to say on them "Volunteer work" for people signing a staff contract. And remove the "Employee" stuff from it. This is sooooo insane. Those guys don't give a shit about the staff members.... they want the money and they try to go around the law to get their MONEY !!! Fuck them.

 

[lkwdblds]

Alex - Do you have source for your assertions?

Alex, I have questions about 3 of your assertions.
1."The U.S. government does not have power to determine what is and what isn't a religion." Do you or perhaps another person reading this have any reference sources to back this up? As Paul pointed out, it wasn't until 1993 that the IRS made their deal, granting full religious status to C of S.
The government had many law suits going against C of S and Hubbard before the deal was cut. If C of S automatically had religious status in the U.S.A. and could not be challenged by the government, why did C of S spend so much time and money, thinking up and creating "religious cloaking?"

2. "Removing the religious status would effectly ban the practice of Scientology." This is definitely not true. In the years before the IRS deal in 1993 not only was Scientology practiced but it grew. Also, many European countries, Germany and England for example, have determined that Scn is not a religion but Scientology is still practiced there and finally, the practice of Scientology in the Free Zone and the entire independent Scientology movement world wide is going strong, including in the U.S.A., without claiming religious standing.

3. "Scientology has 10 billion in reserves." I have never seen anything approaching this figure on the internet or anywhere else. What is your source? C of S seems to be dealing in the hundreds of millions of dollars rather than in billions of dollars. In any case, if you are right about this, it would take years to burn through 10 billion dollars. My point is that once their religious status was cancelled, they would quickly go bankrupt after their reserves are used up. The 2 weeks and 2 months was an attempt at humor, the point is once the reserves are used up, they would be unable to financially sustain operations through new fees coming in and would very quickly go broke.
lkwdblds