For the Rathbun "Believers"

[Type4_PTS]

An honest question, would you have believed everything a declared SP said as indisputable fact 20 years ago while you were still in?

When I was in there were a couple people I knew who were declared SP's and I knew that it was an error, and their creditability in my eyes was not diminished by the declare. In the case of Marty, I imagine that some staff did look up to him and respect him (regardless of whether he was worthy of that or not) and some would still listen to him after he's Declared SP.
Being that he was the Inspector General, Ethics for RTC.......that does carry alot of weight for some still in. Some staff watching his St Pete Times videos would definitely listen to Marty. And while they may not accept what he said as indisputable fact it might be enough to get them asking serious questions and continuing to look elsewhere for answers.

What I care about is wog crimes like murder, extortion, fraud, subversion, deliberate 'ruining utterly' as prescribed by Ron or such things. I'm especially worried about the kinds of corruption of the 'wog' legal system and government as Marty would be well familiar with.
No; I don't care about Scientology Crimes.
Zinj

I'm sure that there are many things that Marty hasn't spoken about that hopefully he will eventually address.
I got that you don't care about "Scientology Crimes" but scientologist's DO care about them and doing reverse processing on your International Management Team is pretty serious. A staff member who happened to peak at these videos on the internet would be horrified, if they believe Marty had any credibility.
As far as the general "wog" public is concerned, Marty HAD publicly accused the leader of the cult with multiple crimes. If would be like one of Obama's cabinet secretaries came out on CNN and accused the president of aggravated assault against him. It IS significant.

 

[Axiom142]

redemption? No, not really. I am neither a scientologist or a christian. I dont give a rat's ass about it.

I particularly dont think skunks achieve redemption from being skunks. it is what they are.

I dont think cowards and grovellers suddenly grow a pair merely because they got kicked out and now praise themselves.

You can join in with him if you wish - good luck. Maybe he will achieve redemption by doing to you and your ilk what he already did to so many scientologists.

Mick,

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘your ilk’. Are you attempting to pigeonhole me by making assumptions about who I am and what I stand for? Is this not what happens on a daily basis in the CoS? They make judgements about people based on limited observations and attempt to put them into pigeonholes which define who they are.

In any case, I have no intention of joining Marty Rathbun or any other group that is aligned with Scientology. I would have thought that was perfectly clear from numerous posts that I have made in the past.

However, I am of the opinion that Marty Rathbun represents a significant threat to Miscavige. He was undoubtedly in a position to know many of the dirty secrets that Miscavige doesn’t want made public and he is obviously prepared to spill the beans. The fact that he has his own agenda is unimportant to me. The CoS is in dire need of reform and if he can help bring this about and end even some of the suffering and abuses perpetrated in the name of Scientology, then I will support him in that.

Axiom142

 

[Abaddon]

Marty embodies essentially the opposite of all the good qualities that a 'leader' has.

-Vision? Debatable, it doesn't take vision to want to be the head hancho.
-Integrity? Hells no.
-Dedication? I guess?
-Magnanimity? Nope.
-Humility? Nope.
-Openness? Nope.
-Fairness? Depends. Were the beatings meted out fairly?
-Assertiveness? Nope. Where was he when DM was running the ship aground, as he would say?
-Sense of humor (for relieving tension and diffusing hostility)? No way.

Everyone wants to be a Chief, Marty's just looking for his slice of the pie.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>

If I recall correctly it took you, and per many others stories quite
some time to come to terms with all this. <snip>

Crikey Terril, ya can't compare my situation to his.

For the record though, I'm still coming to terms with all this, but being at terms with it or not has little or nothing to do with 'sitting' on information. I haven't tended to "sit" on anything for any length of time, and my 'personal' comfort or resolution hasn't dictated what I should do when, not at all, so I don't see how using me as an example to demonstrate your point is appropriate.

As I said in that post, Marty is one of the few exes who didn't have ta "find out" the scoop - he already knew it because he's one of the few who dished it out.

My post was not about Marty, and not about me, nor about what people should or shouldn't do. It was about where all this is gonna end up.....that is my concern.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

According to L. Ron Hubbard, I am a criminal; felonies or better, and, that's in *wog* terms I really don't give a flying fuck about 'Scientology Crimes'. As far as I'm concerned any of these bozos can invalidate, squirrel, tech degrade or miss whithholds all they want.What I care about is wog crimes like murder, extortion, fraud, subversion, deliberate 'ruining utterly' as prescribed by Ron or such things. I'm especially worried about the kinds of corruption of the 'wog' legal system and government as Marty would be well familiar with.No; I don't care about Scientology Crimes.
Zinj

Aren't you worried that Ron's "dying declaration" of all of us as criminals makes it admissible in court? LOL

Oh yeah, I forgot, recognized English language dictionaries define the term "Scientology Crime" as a "HUMANITARIAN ACT".

Sleep well, brothers & sisters!

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Regarding Marty Rathbun's current/future VALUE or THREAT to Justice & Human Rights in relationship to Scientology, the Church of Scientology and Scientologists.

Right now:

Marty is simply a vexatious little gremlin flying on the wing of DM's DC-8. He is visible to the pilot and some crew.

He might try to gum up the engines and take that vessel down in flames. OR;

He might try to spook DM enough to hit the eject button; then Rathbun could climb aboard and take the pilot's seat. OR;

He might spook some of the passengers in that plane to parachute out and book alternate passage on Gremlin Airlines.

All of this plays out while the paying passengers inside the cabin obliviously snooze or watch the onboard pay-per-view movie "How Ron Kicked Xenu's Ass and Saved Yours!"

Honestly? Rathbun is far more dangerous than DM at the helm of Scientology. He has that compassionate, loving Louis Farrakhan thing down way better than Miscavige.

 

[gerry]

Honestly? Rathbun is far more dangerous than DM at the helm of Scientology. He has that compassionate, loving Louis Farrakhan thing down way better than Miscavige.

Cut the head off the dragon and you might have to deal with more.

 

[Alanzo]

There's WAY too much hand-wringing in this thread for me.

The Church of Scientology is built upon walls of information control. Just the fact of Marty's presence outside the Church of Scientology is an invitation to break down those walls for each Scientologist still in.

Once those walls are down, NO ONE is going to be able to put them back up again.

Think back to your own process of getting out. Once you saw what you were doing to yourself by keeping yourself in the dark, you vowed never to let that happen to you again. Why do you think most others will be any different?

Marty will never be able - even if he wanted - to be David Miscavige. Even David Miscavige is having a hard time being David Miscavige now.

It's going to be okay.

Scientologists will be free, and the threat the fraudulent Church of Scientology poses to vulnerable individuals will be less and less.

Look around.

It's already happening.

Use what Marty is producing to continue to break down the methods of information control with which the Church of Scientology imprisons its members.

Keep trying to get this information, and all the other information we have, to online, in-good-standing members of the Church of Scientology.

Victory is near.

We will win this fight.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

There's WAY too much hand-wringing in this thread for me.

The Church of Scientology is built upon walls of information control. Just the fact of Marty's presence outside the Church of Scientology is an invitation to break down those walls for each Scientologist still in.

Once those walls are down, NO ONE is going to be able to put them back up again.

Think back to your own process of getting out. Once you saw what you were doing to yourself by keeping yourself in the dark, you vowed never to let that happen to you again. Why do you think most others will be any different?

Marty will never be able - even if he wanted - to be David Miscavige. Even David Miscavige is having a hard time being David Miscavige now.

It's going to be okay.

Scientologists will be free, and the threat the fraudulent Church of Scientology poses to vulnerable individuals will be less and less.

Look around.

It's already happening.

Use what Marty is producing to continue to break down the methods of information control with which the Church of Scientology imprisons its members.

Keep trying to get this information, and all the other information we have, to online, in-good-standing members of the Church of Scientology.

Victory is near.

We will win this fight.

Hear bloody hear.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
Use what Marty is producing to continue to break down the methods of information control with which the Church of Scientology imprisons its members.

Keep trying to get this information, and all the other information we have, to online, in-good-standing members of the Church of Scientology.

<snip>

Yep, it's all good in that regard - With some people I know, the St Pete's Times package has 'gotten through' when nothing else seemed to. I'm thankful for it.

By the same token though, getting that penny to start dropping is one thing, but where it will end up is another matter - I'd like to see that, for all involved, the penny keeps dropping till it reaches the bottom of the canyon....... not get stuck on a ledge somewhere near the top.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Mick,

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘your ilk’. Are you attempting to pigeonhole me by making assumptions about who I am and what I stand for? Is this not what happens on a daily basis in the CoS? They make judgements about people based on limited observations and attempt to put them into pigeonholes which define who they are.

well mon vieux, you are the one who started with the "is redemption in your vocabulary" question - or did you forget that snide comment already?

I am willing to reset this back and forth whenever you are ready.

In any case, I have no intention of joining Marty Rathbun or any other group that is aligned with Scientology. I would have thought that was perfectly clear from numerous posts that I have made in the past.

good for you.

However, I am of the opinion that Marty Rathbun represents a significant threat to Miscavige. He was undoubtedly in a position to know many of the dirty secrets that Miscavige doesn’t want made public and he is obviously prepared to spill the beans. The fact that he has his own agenda is unimportant to me. The CoS is in dire need of reform and if he can help bring this about and end even some of the suffering and abuses perpetrated in the name of Scientology, then I will support him in that.

Wow, in what possibly way is this loser a threat to Miscavige? Do you see anything from Rathbun other than a willingness to call DM a jerk? Rathbun has had five years to give all this damaging information to the authorities and has not done so - and has already said he will not work with the FBI.

So what damage do you think he is going to do? What is the significant threat?

He is prepared to spill the beans??? Based on what - that he admitted that other people fell asleep auditing? Wow - hold the presses this guy goes for the jugular!

I am sorry that Rathbun is getting support from people like yourself because it is taking away from supporting people who really ARE a threat to Miscavige - people like Larry Brennan, Marc Headley and John Peeler. People who have filed lawsuits, given depositions and who pose a real threat.

Not some "maybe I will ,maybe I wont" fan dance by someone who long ago lost all claim to any sort of credibility.

 

[Ladybird]

David Miscavige spoke to the public media 2 decades or so ago and he made a smashing fool of himself. After that humiliating fiasco Delicate Dave has sent Rinder, Carmichael and Heber out to repersent the cult because even those gouls are much more acceptable to wogs, and because they were better speakers, better liars, better looking and MUCH taller than the dainty asthmatic slap happy dwarf. I am not sure why he sends Tommy the twit Davis out to speak for the cult...I swear tommy the toon has never passed a TR course! Tom the moviestar Mapother Cuise aka the best scientologist EVER didn't do so well either.

I hope the mother of Tommy Davis (actress Anne Archer) is watching the way David Miscavige is ruining her sons reputation and will ship her boy off to a health spa somewhere so he can at least get his voice back after all that schreeching he has been doing.

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

well mon vieux, you are the one who started with the "is redemption in your vocabulary" question - or did you forget that snide comment already?

I am willing to reset this back and forth whenever you are ready.



good for you.



Wow, in what possibly way is this loser a threat to Miscavige? Do you see anything from Rathbun other than a willingness to call DM a jerk? Rathbun has had five years to give all this damaging information to the authorities and has not done so - and has already said he will not work with the FBI.

So what damage do you think he is going to do? What is the significant threat?

He is prepared to spill the beans??? Based on what - that he admitted that other people fell asleep auditing? Wow - hold the presses this guy goes for the jugular!

I am sorry that Rathbun is getting support from people like yourself because it is taking away from supporting people who really ARE a threat to Miscavige - people like Larry Brennan, Marc Headley and John Peeler. People who have filed lawsuits, given depositions and who pose a real threat.

Not some "maybe I will ,maybe I wont" fan dance by someone who long ago lost all claim to any sort of credibility.

And yet another post proving you can't clearly use logic on this subject.
Marty still has one huge thing in common with all current Scientologists. Scientology.
A current Scientologist looks at anyone trying to sue the "church" as a "bad guy" no matter what. And therefore wants absolutely nothing to do with them. Unlike our wacky Marty. Who they will go read if they are in doubt. That in itself is better than what they are doing with DM.
Waiting for another one of your overly emotional sarcastic posts...go!

 

[Billy McDonald]

I agree with Mick, this all seems to be a way for him to razz Miscavige at safe distance without getting tally whacked for it.

 

[bts2free]

And yet another post proving you can't clearly use logic on this subject.
Marty still has one huge thing in common with all current Scientologists. Scientology.
A current Scientologist looks at anyone trying to sue the "church" as a "bad guy" no matter what. And therefore wants absolutely nothing to do with them. Unlike our wacky Marty. Who they will go read if they are in doubt. That in itself is better than what they are doing with DM.
Waiting for another one of your overly emotional sarcastic posts...go!

Iknowtoomuch, I don't want to step in the middle of the flame war between you two, but you have to realize, which I am appreciating the more I post here and visit here, that there are many different points of view on this subject - especially in regards to Marty.

There are those who wish to burn in the fire anything Scientology at all.

There are those who wish to take down DM and the CoS so that there is no suppressive individual or organization who use Scientology to abuse others with anymore. (Some believe that Marty is just blowing smoke and will continue to take advantage of others due to his past and present actions or inactions).

There are those who want to sift through Scientology and use the "good" or "workable" Tech and discard the "bad" aspects of it - despite it being based on a foundation of lies and evil intentions (Hubbard).

Some people have gone through much more than others in relation to the evils and abuses of Scientology and will take measures a bit further to get the results they want, especially those who were fair gamed or families harmed. They may even say things that you don't agree with or don't like and vice versa.

Believe me, over the years I've been in many flame wars on other sites, especially when I felt that a person was OSA, but I found that by using logic and reason, it's much more effective. I try as much as I can to use a "devil's advocate" approach to get my viewpoint across or even analogies that others may agree on.

True, Marty went to the press and spoke about some of the violence and even his part in the Lisa McPherson handling. Apparently he stuck his neck out on the line by telling the world that he had evidence in that case destroyed for the CoS. He also explained that he was one of the only people who could stand up to DM and so, he wasn't physically abused by him as much as the others were. So, why didn't he physically stop him if he had that much confront and ability?

Where I agree that it is good that Marty has come forward to expose some of these truths about what happened at the Int base, he is mainly finger pointing that DM was the main reason and the source of it all which isn't true. Marty had the power to stop DM when he had the chance to, but he didn't. He was in-charge of all Ethics for quite some time - including being the Int Base "Prison Warden" and could be charged by many people with False Imprisonment crimes. See, Marty needs to tell the whole truth about what happened, not just blame DM.

Some people see that Marty is using his old position in the CoS to "help" ex or current Scientologists so that he can survive out here in the real world. He's positioned himself as being the ultimate or "LRH pure" tech terminal away from that suppressive CoS or DM.

True logic shows us that there is something not quite right about the whole Marty scenario and some people would like to sniff it out and get to the facts. At least we can expose what we do know.

It is up to Marty how he wishes to go about his scene, but many will not be fooled again. Mick being one of those people.

If Marty's intentions were completely clean, we would be hearing a lot more about what was really going on behind the scenes and his involvement. He knows a LOT more than what he's told us already. We've only gotten some little snippets of what we've heard about already.

We knew and talked about the beatings and the Musical Chairs for example waaaay before Marty decided to open his mouth.

Scientologically speaking, Marty is not "as-ising" this very well at all, thus the persistence.

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

Iknowtoomuch, I don't want to step in the middle of the flame war between you two, but you have to realize, which I am appreciating the more I post here and visit here, that there are many different points of view on this subject - especially in regards to Marty.

There are those who wish to burn in the fire anything Scientology at all.

There are those who wish to take down DM and the CoS so that there is no suppressive individual or organization who use Scientology to abuse others with anymore. (Some believe that Marty is just blowing smoke and will continue to take advantage of others due to his past and present actions or inactions).

There are those who want to sift through Scientology and use the "good" or "workable" Tech and discard the "bad" aspects of it - despite it being based on a foundation of lies and evil intentions (Hubbard).

Some people have gone through much more than others in relation to the evils and abuses of Scientology and will take measures a bit further to get the results they want, especially those who were fair gamed or families harmed. They may even say things that you don't agree with or don't like and vice versa.

Believe me, over the years I've been in many flame wars on other sites, especially when I felt that a person was OSA, but I found that by using logic and reason, it's much more effective. I try as much as I can to use a "devil's advocate" approach to get my viewpoint across or even analogies that others may agree on.

True, Marty went to the press and spoke about some of the violence and even his part in the Lisa McPherson handling. Apparently he stuck his neck out on the line by telling the world that he had evidence in that case destroyed for the CoS. He also explained that he was one of the only people who could stand up to DM and so, he wasn't physically abused by him as much as the others were. So, why didn't he physically stop him if he had that much confront and ability?

Where I agree that it is good that Marty has come forward to expose some of these truths about what happened at the Int base, he is mainly finger pointing that DM was the main reason and the source of it all which isn't true. Marty had the power to stop DM when he had the chance to, but he didn't. He was in-charge of all Ethics for quite some time - including being the Int Base "Prison Warden" and could be charged by many people with False Imprisonment crimes. See, Marty needs to tell the whole truth about what happened, not just blame DM.

Some people see that Marty is using his old position in the CoS to "help" ex or current Scientologists so that he can survive out here in the real world. He's positioned himself as being the ultimate or "LRH pure" tech terminal away from that suppressive CoS or DM.

True logic shows us that there is something not quite right about the whole Marty scenario and some people would like to sniff it out and get to the facts. At least we can expose what we do know.

It is up to Marty how he wishes to go about his scene, but many will not be fooled again. Mick being one of those people.

If Marty's intentions were completely clean, we would be hearing a lot more about what was really going on behind the scenes and his involvement. He knows a LOT more than what he's told us already. We've only gotten some little snippets of what we've heard about already.

We knew and talked about the beatings and the Musical Chairs for example waaaay before Marty decided to open his mouth.

Scientologically speaking, Marty is not "as-ising" this very well at all, thus the persistence.

I couldn't agree with you more. My point being if Marty can distract enough people away from DM's version of Scientology, it's just that much better. And it is happening. It's not what I want either but no matter what we feel, Scientology as a belief system wont just stop being used altogether. That's just not going to happen any time soon.
So the next best thing is taking power away DM. That is what I see Marty doing. I just don't want Marty gaining too much power either because he's whacked. Just in a different way. To put it plainly.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

And yet another post proving you can't clearly use logic on this subject.
Marty still has one huge thing in common with all current Scientologists. Scientology.
A current Scientologist looks at anyone trying to sue the "church" as a "bad guy" no matter what. And therefore wants absolutely nothing to do with them. Unlike our wacky Marty. Who they will go read if they are in doubt. That in itself is better than what they are doing with DM.
Waiting for another one of your overly emotional sarcastic posts...go!

well it's true that I do not use Scientology "logic" aka wishful thinking.

Tell you what - we'll just wait and see.

As I said in another post - give me a shout in a year and you can show me all the great things that have happened because of Marty.

 

[Zinjifar]

It may seem counter-intuitive, but, OSA has been singing the 'David Miscavige/Current Management Bad' song for at least 10 years, in one way or another, starting on ARS and ACT. I pretty much assume that it got started as a deliberate attempt to 'divide and conquer'/third party the 'Tech Lovers' and the 'anti-Techists', but, in the meantime it has become the predominate 'cover', probably because it works so well.

And, why does it work well? Well, because that's a *real* divide between groups and as a 'cover story' it matches *real* people who have that opinion. So, just because OSA says it, doesn't mean that anyone saying it is OSA

But, OSA can say *anything*. Point being that, merely to be calling David Miscavige names isn't something that bothers the 'Church' much. Since they do it themselves too It's a good distraction from the *real* issue; the criminality of the 'Church'.

Zinj

 

[Mystic]

Sure is a lot of water flowing under the bridge in this journey of wiping our planet clean of this scifaggOTry contamination spewed forth by an artificial entity who had to do all sorts of pretentious affirmations because it never was a natural spiritual being.

 

[Axiom142]

well mon vieux, you are the one who started with the "is redemption in your vocabulary" question - or did you forget that snide comment already?

I am willing to reset this back and forth whenever you are ready.

Mick,

I don’t do snide comments. This was meant as a genuine question in the hope that you might consider the possibility that someone might be able to make amends for past wrongs that they have committed. Do I think that Mark Rathbun has made amends for all the harmful acts that he carried out in the name of Scientology? No, not by a long chalk.

But, am I prepared to accept that one day he may do so? Yes. And I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in the meantime. Should everyone who has ever done wrong be condemned to an eternity in ‘Hell’ without any possibility of salvation?

Wow, in what possibly way is this loser a threat to Miscavige? Do you see anything from Rathbun other than a willingness to call DM a jerk? Rathbun has had five years to give all this damaging information to the authorities and has not done so - and has already said he will not work with the FBI.

So what damage do you think he is going to do? What is the significant threat?

He is prepared to spill the beans??? Based on what - that he admitted that other people fell asleep auditing? Wow - hold the presses this guy goes for the jugular!

I am sorry that Rathbun is getting support from people like yourself because it is taking away from supporting people who really ARE a threat to Miscavige - people like Larry Brennan, Marc Headley and John Peeler. People who have filed lawsuits, given depositions and who pose a real threat.

Not some "maybe I will ,maybe I wont" fan dance by someone who long ago lost all claim to any sort of credibility.

Mark Rathbun held one of the highest posts in RTC. There are still those in the CoS who remember him and would be prepared to listen to what he has to say. This is important because as I’m sure you are aware, there are many Scientologists who will never even listen to those who are ‘attacking’ their religion. This was graphically demonstrated to me when I tried to have a rational discussion with George Baillie several weeks ago. The only way to get through to people like this is to communicate to them in a language that they understand and from a similar position, i.e. wanting to achieve spiritual freedom through the application of Scientology.

Mark has given a comprehensive interview regarding the abuses of Miscavige and his cronies (including himself) to the St Petersburg Times. This, along with 14 others speaking out has resulted in a huge PR loss for the CoS. And, who knows, perhaps this episode will persuade Lesevre, Starkey, Mithoff, Yager or Jentzsch that they should follow suit? In addition, via his Blog, Mark has made public more instances of abuses perpetrated by Miscavige, including those directed at suppressing Scientology ‘technology’. You might not care about this, but you have already left the CoS. I have no doubt that these examples will be of interest to some who are still ‘in’.

I don’t see how my giving ‘moral’ support to Mark Rathbun takes anything away from Larry, Marc and John. They have done a tremendous amount in exposing the CoS for what it really is and it was reading their stories that played a large part in my deciding to leave Scientology behind and I’m sure that others will also be similarly influenced.

If the abuses of the Church of Scientology are to be ended once and for all, then a multi-pronged and complementary approach is required. Mark Rathbun appeals to a difference audience than we do.

Axiom142