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TG1

Angelic Poster
Back to the learning discussion ...

Learning, like much of life, is a uniquely personal experience. Trouble is, like other things in life that are personal, we all use the same or similar words to describe them – words like orgasm, chocolate, swimming, relief, understanding.

Discussion about learning is further complicated by the fact that a word like learning is just a bucket for many processes and phenomena, e.g., the grinding effort to gain a toehold on a subject, the gradual glimpse of a counterintuitive hypothesis, the mind-blowing aha moment, the realization that my prior understanding is completely off the mark, the suspicion that my teachers are flawed.

There are also learner types, e.g., those who yearn for certainty as soon as possible vs. those who can will never have enough data to decide anything. Many other attributes distinguish and differentiate our learning styles and processes, and an infinity of weightings and degrees of these attributes in individuals simply demonstrates how very personal the learning experience is for each of us.

Yes, there are entry-level requisites to learning, including understanding the terms we use to teach and learn. But we should also continue to refine and redefine all our terms, including the most basic ones. Other requisites to learning include trust, suspicion, resilience, synthesis, distillation and a willingness to invite scorn, admit failure and toss overboard our sunk costs.

Learning is a fascinating subject. Much effort has been made to understand it, and the studies about it go far, far beyond anything related to “study tech.”

TG1

P.S. In my experience with Scientology, the specifics and intensity of application of "study tech" (like the rest of "standard tech") have varied considerably over the past 40 years.

P.P.S. themadhare, I wish you would post here more often.
 
I think it was after I left the cult that once I de-stimulated and got the truth about why scientology was so screwed up (after the Mission Holders debacle) I was able unravel the mysteries of how I became a bogged student. It all came down to Hub's study tech. I was so PTS to the church back then I couldn't think straight and solve problems.
I am curious Operating DB, I know many have studied and can apply Scientology and were not hindered by study tech. But you have a negative response to the tech. This is my first question - was it the study tech or was it what you were studying that was the why?

I was reading DMSMH as part of the basics - and there was this part in the book that stopped me cold. I could not get past it. It is in the chapter on the cell, if I recall right it was something like the nervous system evolved from impacts, the more impacts the more nerves in the area which was to explain why the fingers had more nerves than the skin of the arm, and why man has large heads housing the bundle of nerves (the brain) - Are you fucking kidding me - man evolved brains from walking in to low lying limbs and cave ceilings? I thought - OK he's making a joke. But he was dead serious. I had read the book a time or two before and it never sunk in. I totally missed what he was really saying. This time however, I never progressed past that point in the book. It was a WTF moment.

How in the hell could The Hubbard, the ultimate authority of the Tech, a man of impeachable integrity, write something so stupid and present it as the truth. It would be like Newton saying apples fall due to gravity but leaves are not affected by gravity as much hence they fall slower.

When I was out and I read about how messed up the science was in All About Radiation, and the fucked up purif tech - I lost all respect for the man and what he wrote. Other than maybe I will do some more solo 7, I haven't touched a Scientology book, or tape since. In fact I sold it all. Except for my solo meter and a book of meter drills, it is gone baby gone.

My second question is: Did you sort out exactly what part of the study tech was messing you up? If so, what was it?

Mimsey
 

themadhair

Patron Meritorious
When I was out and I read about how messed up the science was in All About Radiation, and the fucked up purif tech
Like this?:
"Niacin's biochemical reaction is my own private, personal discovery. In the middle of the 1950s, I was doing work on radiation and I worked out that it must be Niacin that operated on radiation. I was recently told by a doctor that the Dianazene formula of that time is remarkably workable today.

Niacin runs out radiation. It will often cause a very hot flush and prickly, itchy skin which can last up to an hour or longer. It may also bring on chills or make a person feel tired.
"
 
My wife made this point - the problem with Study Tech is extremism. Is it really necessary to know all the definitions and the derivation of every word? While it is a good idea to look up words and know definitions, the totalitarian approach by the supervisors reduces it's workability - take a person who gets headaches from reading anything. The course sup would go nuts on this point. But, is it lack of mass? Or does the person need glasses? or is the light in the course room crappy? It is the extremism within Scientology that is the problem. You have to know each and every word Hubbard wrote. You have to apply each and every thing he wrote exactly as he wrote it. No exceptions. What good would it do to study Karl Marx like that? What use would it be?

Study tech by itself isn't bad. It is how the study tech is put to use - the extremism, the totalitarian, must know everything he wrote, must duplicate it exactly, it is only a m/u, is only one of the three barriers of study - there are no exceptions that make the study tech bad.

That what makes study so tedious. Will looking up a million medical terms make you a doctor?

You can see she's the smart one in the family.

Mimsey
 
Like this?:
"Niacin's biochemical reaction is my own private, personal discovery. In the middle of the 1950s, I was doing work on radiation and I worked out that it must be Niacin that operated on radiation. I was recently told by a doctor that the Dianazene formula of that time is remarkably workable today.

Niacin runs out radiation. It will often cause a very hot flush and prickly, itchy skin which can last up to an hour or longer. It may also bring on chills or make a person feel tired. "
Yeah, and washing off gamma radiation...

Mimsey
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
My wife made this point - the problem with Study Tech is extremism. Is it really necessary to know all the definitions and the derivation of every word? While it is a good idea to look up words and know definitions, the totalitarian approach by the supervisors reduces it's workability - take a person who gets headaches from reading anything. The course sup would go nuts on this point. But, is it lack of mass? Or does the person need glasses? or is the light in the course room crappy? It is the extremism within Scientology that is the problem. You have to know each and every word Hubbard wrote. You have to apply each and every thing he wrote exactly as he wrote it. No exceptions. What good would it do to study Karl Marx like that? What use would it be?

Study tech by itself isn't bad. It is how the study tech is put to use - the extremism, the totalitarian, must know everything he wrote, must duplicate it exactly, it is only a m/u, is only one of the three barriers of study - there are no exceptions that make the study tech bad.

That what makes study so tedious. Will looking up a million medical terms make you a doctor?

You can see she's the smart one in the family.

Mimsey

Well, she is smart and is correct. But you know, I gotta point out that if you look at Hubbard's original study tech stuff- he does not say to clear every definition and all of that. Originally, students were supposed to look for the appropriate definition and clear that.

I believe the other stuff is a DM addition...
 
It is kinda odd when people refer argue that I could have gotten the gains in other ways, sort of like:

"Hey, I bought these very nice apples in that store over htere. Delicious."

"Yeah, but you could have bought equally nice apples elsewhere :angry:"

"Uh?"

"And many happen to find them in some garden for free, or stumbe accross them in the meaddows over there, or... :no:"

"Well, I bought them in that store over there"

"I don't wanna hear another word of that store for a multitude of reasons :nervous:".

"Ok, whatever"

What happened happened. I can only speak on how I got the gains - not on how I could have gotten them otherwise, or on the validity of the millions of different paths possible.

You're compairing apples to Hubbard.

What is in question is the idea of "gain."

Hubbard sold to you at great cost was your own thoughts and what you would probably have gotten out of life anyway.

Nobody is the same as they were when they were young.

Everybody changes; everyone has epiphanies.

Scientology is one big placebo.

And not just for the self-centered--that's the public pcs.

Scientology is also a big placebo for many who want to improve the fate of mankind--that's the staff.

He knows how to hook them all.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Actually, I agree with Geir.

The argument "You could have gotten that elsewhere" would only apply if you said "I need apples. I have to drive up about four counties to get them." and person says, "Jesus. There's a really nice fruitstand right around the corner from you."

Now, if you already have the apples- and maybe you went through hell and high water to get them, but you have them, you've got them in your crisper bin in the fridge, you've made applesauce, you've made pies, you've jarred, canned, frozen, dried some for later- you've got all kinds and you say "Hey, I had to go through hell to get these damn things. I had to drive 200 miles, but look at all the pies and stuff I have." and the person says "you could have gone around the corner." the appropriate response would be:

"Ah, but I didn't know that at the time. The apples have already been bought. I am enjoying them. I'm glad many places carry them and that means I'll know for next time."
 
Actually, I agree with Geir.

The argument "You could have gotten that elsewhere" would only apply if you said "I need apples. I have to drive up about four counties to get them." and person says, "Jesus. There's a really nice fruitstand right around the corner from you."

Now, if you already have the apples- and maybe you went through hell and high water to get them, but you have them, you've got them in your crisper bin in the fridge, you've made applesauce, you've made pies, you've jarred, canned, frozen, dried some for later- you've got all kinds and you say "Hey, I had to go through hell to get these damn things. I had to drive 200 miles, but look at all the pies and stuff I have." and the person says "you could have gone around the corner." the appropriate response would be:

"Ah, but I didn't know that at the time. The apples have already been bought. I am enjoying them. I'm glad many places carry them and that means I'll know for next time."

Except we are not talking about apples. We are talking about gains.

And I question his and Scientology's paradigm of what is a gain.

A gain, while it happens to the person who is the subject, would have to be an objective thing in order to be a gain.

If something is not added, then it is not a gain, it is a rearrange.

It may sound like I am playing word games, but I'm not.

I dispute the idea and validity of what Scientology calls a gain.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
, I gotta point out that if you look at Hubbard's original study tech stuff- he does not say to clear every definition and all of that. Originally, students were supposed to look for the appropriate definition and clear that.
He also said you could ignore the words and come back for them later if you couldn't understand what was being said - I don't lay the blame on DM's doorstep like a flaming bag of dog shit, rather, Hubbard kept on raising the stakes until he got to the point you would get treason for passing a m/u. It was him my friend. DM's claim to fame is the "correct definition" glossary's in the Basics where he evaluated which was the correct def. and cut out all of the other def's.

Mimsey
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
He also said you could ignore the words and come back for them later if you couldn't understand what was being said - I don't lay the blame on DM's doorstep like a flaming bag of dog shit, rather, Hubbard kept on raising the stakes until he got to the point you would get treason for passing a m/u. It was him my friend. DM's claim to fame is the "correct definition" glossary's in the Basics where he evaluated which was the correct def. and cut out all of the other def's.

Mimsey

Yah. I'm not one of those who feel it was all DM. Hubbard created the abusive policies.

But re the study tech thang, I think DM mangled it pretty good.
 

Isene

Patron with Honors
Except we are not talking about apples. We are talking about gains.

And I question his and Scientology's paradigm of what is a gain.

A gain, while it happens to the person who is the subject, would have to be an objective thing in order to be a gain.

If something is not added, then it is not a gain, it is a rearrange.

It may sound like I am playing word games, but I'm not.

I dispute the idea and validity of what Scientology calls a gain.

The Anabaptist Jacques


As I said, at the time I preferred running to walking. If you offered me a faster way to go from dork to radio show host than Scientology did at the time, I would be all ears.

The argument that "you would have gotten those gains anyhow" is fallacious. Because you and I don't know how it would have been otherwise. I only know what actually happened. I understand that you may wish I had gotten the gain through other means, but that is a side track.
 
As I said, at the time I preferred running to walking. If you offered me a faster way to go from dork to radio show host than Scientology did at the time, I would be all ears.

The argument that "you would have gotten those gains anyhow" is fallacious. Because you and I don't know how it would have been otherwise. I only know what actually happened. I understand that you may wish I had gotten the gain through other means, but that is a side track.

You're missing my point entirely.

I am saying that I don't accept the validity of the concept of "gains" from Scientology.

I am not saying you could have gotten them elsewhere.

You are making a claim of "gains."

It is just a claim, a subjective claim.

How do I know that it is true?

If yu are going to argue that such gains are a result of the application of a specific technology, then you have to somehow substantiate the claim objectively.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
... I dispute the idea and validity of what Scientology calls a gain.

The Anabaptist Jacques

It matters not a whit what either the Co$ or you consider to be a gain. What matters is what the individual considers to have gained from his efforts.

What you describe is an attempt to apply an external arbitrary consideration, either yours or hubbard's, to what is at heart a fully subjective process.


Mark A. Baker
 
... If yu are going to argue that such gains are a result of the application of a specific technology, then you have to somehow substantiate the claim objectively.

The Anabaptist Jacques

In which case every human endeavor outside of the specifically physical sciences has absolutey nothing to say, and even the physical sciences are limited due to the inherently subjective nature of measurement. :)

Rather, your requirement is a false one, or as hubbard styled such an 'arbitrary'. All that actually needs to be demonstrated is a trending effect in subjective reports of gains being had from auditing or other aspects of scientology tech. Past histories of such trends are sufficient for that purpose.


Mark A. Baker
 
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