Freedom of speech

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
As some of you know, I left the cult over the freedom of speech issue. I was going to post to forums and talk to critics (and, of course, make friends with some as I have done) and it was just not their business or their right to tell me I shouldn't.

So lately I've been seeing a lot of dismay expressed about private blogs that are moderated. And over the months and years, I've been seeing a lot of potshots at Scientologists posting here about how they supposedly want to stop discussion of this or that. Rebuttals to this end up making the claimants furious instead of being glad that the topic is actually being discussed.

I've also been seeing many posts in which anyone with any interest in Scientology is labelled "OSA" or other claims made about them. I've seen people here flat out tell Scientologists (and just about every Scientologist here is an ex cult member and has had his or her own horror to have come to terms with from his or her own time in the cult. Many of them are expelled and declared) to stop posting, to shut up, to not do this, to not do that. Then, inevitably, later on, those same people post allegations that they aren't allowed to speak freely or that others are trying to truncate this.
This is hypocritical.

If you want uncensored posting with NO rules of conduct (other than don't post JPGs and html, etc) then go to alt.religion.scientology. If you want to be in a forum where just about everything in Scn (plus a nifty off topic section) can be discussed but there are rules of conduct that are enforced, then ESMB is an awesome place for that. If you want to discuss Scientology but have limitations about confidential stuff, then post to Isene's board. If you don't want that, then don't go there. If you want to talk about scn and the church but are willing to refrain from Marty bashing, then you can post to Marty's blog. If those terms don't do it for you, then don't go there.

And if you do post to a forum where the communication is free and open ended, like this one or a.r.s., then keep in mind that others- even if they have minority views on Scn- are allowed to post their opinions, too. If you criticize people or movements on a board where quite a few people have ties to those, then you can expect responses. That's just how it works. You had the freedom to post those opinions, others have the freedom to post rebuttals and opinions of their own.
 
I don't see why people are getting on Geir Isene's back about not wanting any of the Hubbard's upper level con game posted on his board. If you have a problem with it just don't go there ... it's really that simple.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Geir's a big boy and doesn't seem intent on wallowing in his 'victimhood'. Not even to attempt to 'control' what others say. Good for Geir.

Zinj
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Geir's new board is fine! - I had to ponder it a bit, before seeing that.. But a 'safe' environment, or 'theta' environment for scientologists is good!

The debate there will not be what CoS management wants! - Of that I'm quite certain.

:yes:
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm looking forward to getting onto the new forum. I have no problem over not discussing the details of confidential levels in a society where that is not welcomed. Equally I have no problem in discussing the details where it is acceptable to do so, such as on here.

Neither discussing nor not discussing the Confid stuff is a problem for me.

:)
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
Ok this is what i reacted on and why:

As for "heavy moderation", I can say this: I have deleted less than 0,2% of the comments on my blog - and only after repeated warnings. I have removed reference to confidential material inside the comments to follow the rules laid out on my blog.

I believes in free speech. I believe in fruitful and courteous discussions, hence the simple rules.

I would like the forum to deliver real data and valuable information for the people visiting. It should be a safe place for Scientologists still in to come and read, participate and make up their own minds as to what is right for them. In this, arrogance does not help.

1. Isene will moderate any post to remove the confidential materials before it comes up on the board.
2. He then says he beleives in free speech.

For me, that isn´t free speech, I´m sorry if you feel it offends you VC that was not my intent, but that is hypocrisy.

I asked him an open question from me to him, so far he choose not to respond to me, I am fine with that. That is what free speech is for me.
But stating that you believe in free speech whilst setting up airtight moderation...

I take pot shots on other people, for me that´s part of having an open discussion. If anyone wants to go for a comedy shot on me, please do. If it goes overboard I put my faith in moderation.
Please understand that I don´t mean anything offensive with it, I don´t consider you people on this board idiots.
I wish I could say I respect everyones opinions, but that would be like throwing a creamy pie in my own face. When it comes to the tech of scientology, "confidential" material and the like... Well I´m not the smartest person on the planet and I do tend to write before I think.

I have alot of respect for you VC, you pick up the keyboard axe and fight. You state your opinions and you stick to them, Paul, Terril and most of you guys do. I admire you guys though I disagree with you guys on alot you write.

I don´t have the same respect for Isene, maybe one day he will prove me wrong. Either way I feel I have a right to ridicule the fact that he can´t accept the OT levels for what I feel they are. Fake.

So when I see hypocrisy my eyes turn red and I smash down on the reply button and I write. Should I be sorry for that? If I go over the board, well you just did a great thing, you wrote a post on it. Good! Free speech in action! I reply! Even more free speech!

I wish english was my primary language. I have a hard time making sense of what´s on my mind. Whenever it goes behind three sentences I feel like I´m way out of my league. I hope it makes sence, it took me 20 minutes to write this down, re edit it and putting it together again.
 
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Isene

Patron with Honors
Either way I feel I have a right to ridicule the fact that he can´t accept the OT levels for what I feel they are. Fake. .

You may find it annoying that I won't accept the OT levels for what you feel they are. I care not. However much you would want to reiterate your point, the rules of the forum will not change. Just leave it.

As for free speech: It does not include yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. There are common sense limits - as the laws of most any country would concur.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
Hey! thanks for replying Isene. Way to go.

You may find it annoying that I won't accept the OT levels for what you feel they are. I care not. However much you would want to reiterate your point, the rules of the forum will not change. Just leave it.

What you do with you forum is up to you, I wish you good luck and I hope that someday you will see it in a different light.

As for free speech: It does not include yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. There are common sense limits - as the laws of most any country would concur.

Do you believe you are applying free speech on your forum when you are shifting through the posts before they get posted?
You know my beliefs on this, I´d really like to know yours.

Edit: If you don´t want to answer me on the forum but feel like taking the discussion off the boards, you can alway PM me.
 

Ananon

Patron
Overreacting much?

Cool down, bro. Geir is a good guy, and although I can understand where you are coming from, you should give it a rest. If you take a step back, you'll see he's both in his right and that it's necessary to create a place where Scientologists can confront their fears safely.

Regarding the forum, I kinda fear there will not be enough new blood to keep it sustainable and lively though, but we'll see. Perhaps you should adapt some of Anonymous' stealth tactics Geir, to promote the forum in Orgs. :D
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Moderated forums are controversial. I would guess that this doesn't just pertain to moderated ones about Scn- but other topics, too.

I have seen oppressive and capricious moderation- such as on beliefnet where the mods on the scn discussion board would enforce rules that did not exist or had some very capricious and odd interpretations of them. However, that being said, I don't think that in and of itself, that moderated forums are innately problematic. I think that perhaps some of us who are a.r.s., OCMB and ESMB veterans and regulars may be spoiled, in a way. We're so used to being able to discuss Xenu and whatnot. I speculate that some folks would really like to discuss the OT levels with Geir because he's done ALL of them and he's quite articulate. Maybe that's where some of the frustration is coming from. Maybe not. It's just a thought.

I think most of us are pretty passionate people and that we can get pretty sensitive about freedom of speech. I know that's a huge "button" for me and I sometimes lose my temper over it...
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
Cool down, bro. Geir is a good guy, and although I can understand where you are coming from, you should give it a rest. If you take a step back, you'll see he's both in his right and that it's necessary to create a place where Scientologists can confront their fears safely.

Yeah he looks to me like the personification of a good guy, but debate can never be a bad thing now can it?
Don´t worry, I´ll be sweet like Jesus for a couple of hours.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
He-Man, I love debate. I really do. That's why I don't post much on FZ forums. There's not much debate there. But Geir may have different things he's hoping to have happen in discussion than you or I would.

I appreciate what you said in your post earlier on this thread, btw.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
He-Man, I love debate. I really do. That's why I don't post much on FZ forums. There's not much debate there. But Geir may have different things he's hoping to have happen in discussion than you or I would.

I appreciate what you said in your post earlier on this thread, btw.

Thank you VC, This is what I love with Forumnetics: No matter how much people disagree most people can at least agree to disagree. A neverending cycle. Hmm. Why do I suddenly feel the urge to write a book about it and start a brand new philosophy that will evolve into a religion that I can make shizzleloads of money on.

Nope, it´s gone.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Thank you VC, This is what I love with Forumnetics: No matter how much people disagree most people can at least agree to disagree. A neverending cycle. Hmm. Why do I suddenly feel the urge to write a book about it and start a brand new philosophy that will evolve into a religion that I can make shizzleloads of money on.

Nope, it´s gone.


Fuck! I was going to liquidate all my assets and mail you a check! Too late!
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Common Sense

I agree with Isene here because there are things in the OT levels that

require gradient training and preparation in order to do safely,

otherwise someone could get very hurt.

You would not give the key to a business jet to a 6-year-old boy

and say go fly it and have fun.

Common Sense.
 
I don't see why people are getting on Geir Isene's back about not wanting any of the Hubbard's upper level con game posted on his board. If you have a problem with it just don't go there ... it's really that simple.

I see the NEW CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY being constructed right now in the "field". The internet is one of the div 6 units. Ratbun and Geir, and other scientology blogs and boards, are little "missions".

This NEW CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY is evolving partly as a reaction against abuse, but also as power-skirmishes between individuals. The fight cannot happen in the occupied territory of the orgs.

The main point though is that I am referring to Scientologists (not exes) in-fighting and reaction against abuse.
They will not fight or react against Elron. There will be enough of these people to start a fully fledged church, probably in the not too distant future.
They will continue abusing people because they still believe in the cult dictator and mindfucker L Ron Hubbard.

The key area of secret knowledge will be used as it has always been used. "Ethics" will be used as it has always been used. To control people.

You have attacked ron's mindfucking lunatic shit vigourously but you dont get it that people may want to criticize Geir for perpertrating that bullshit by deferring, so respectfully, devoutly? to ron's game rules.

Their will be a new COS. It will be as insane as the current one. It may be a bit less agressive - as long as it is controlled by the "wog" environment around it. There will be good guys in it and there will be those who are not as "basically good" as the rest of mankind who will use it to control people and get rich. They will abuse people.
 
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