FreeZone- my protest

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I've had reason to view the FZ with some modicum of trepidation. I've said so before. But I want to take issue here and now with such comments as "Such a bad game" and "you've been warned".

It's not a bad game.
It's not a good game.

It's people.

People are not free from their innate faults, flaws, "aberrations" even when Scn promises that they will and they've had tons of auditing. We are animals (Yes, I believe in spirituality but we all are organisms) and animals operate from a standpoint of "Territorial Imperative". That's all that's going on. Territorial imperative.

It's the same stuff you see in flame wars amongst critics or anyone else. Or politics. Or whatever. It's territorial imperative.

The FZ is comprised of NOTHING but human beings all acting out territorial imperative. They are reaching for something better but often fall short. I think sometimes CofS behaviorisms are emulated, sometimes unknowingly, though it does not appear to be as bad as in CofS. Probably the non centralized nature of the FZ helps there.

So Tory knows someone who was taken to the cleaners by a Free Zoner. Well, I've known many who weren't. I've known people who spent very little or a relatively modest amount. I've seen people's fees be waived completely.

However, I still saw territorial imperative rearing its head again and again. Also, I think any spiritual messages or info we glean from-whatever's out there- come to us through a filter and we often misinterpret things. This is my supposition based on the many common elements I've seen in other religions, things prophets say that are similar yet you get different interpretations and so on. Anyone read Oh God (the book, not the movies)? In it, God appears as a little Jewish man to the protagonist and gives him tea and cookies. He says he does it because of the guy's frame of reference. One gets the impression that poor God has to really dumb things down to talk to us and we still get it wrong.

So, no, I'm not "warned" about the Freezone. I don't think it's "a bad game". It's just people. Sometimes they fuck up. Often they help each other but I don't see that it's any better than any other self help thing.

There's some mean shit amongst FZers though it does not seem to be the ginormous clusterfuck CofS is. However, if it were to be a coup situation and they took over CofS, I wouldn't be hopeful since I doubt that anyone can get anywhere without a lot of culling and nobody'd agree what stuff to cull. Might as well study shamanism and Buddhism and other things directly. But that's my opinion.

I thought Scn was this only thing, type of deal. CofS told me so. LRH said so repeatedly. I think my husband still thinks so. Then I was all happy to find it operating outside CofS. Well, I got some good from FZ auditing. I did. And I know people who are doing just fine with it, who do not get taken to the cleaners or anything like that. But it's a kind of a crapshoot as to whether or not Scn in the FZ can help you because it's just another ology. Your mileage varies with ologies. FZ Scn is no different. I think that if you took out all the problematic stuff- if you even could- you still would get a YMMV situation.

But that is a long way from saying the FZ is a bad game and it's all crap.

It's not. It's just another ological endeavor with the good, the bad and the ugly.
 
... There's some mean shit amongst FZers ...

There's a 'mean shit' among ex's generally, as fifteen minutes spent browsing this or any other 'ex' board will readily establish. Scientology didn't invent 'being mean'. It can be argued that Hubbard made malice a matter of policy and many former members of the church seem to have learned how to take being mean to uncommonly advanced levels.

The real sadness lies in their failure to leave that sort of behavior behind when they leave the church, whatever their own position vis a vis the freezone may be.


Mark A. Baker
 

SomeGuy

Patron Meritorious
But that is a long way from saying the FZ is a bad game and it's all crap.

It's not. It's just another ological endeavor with the good, the bad and the ugly.

I'm curious, it's been awhile since I read through some of the stories. Are "face rips", disconnection and various other command and control mechanisms that border on abuse a common thing in all ologies?

I know it's the people that do those things but catholics aren't taught to go rape little boys although some of their priest do it. Hindus? Buddhists? Protestants?

Yep they all have their share of abusive people what they don't really have is scriptures which tell their adherents to behave badly.

So I think when you closely examine scientology as it is practice you realize that perhaps the people aren't bad is that they are being conditioned to behave badly.

I'll equate it to this, if you believe murder is proper and you live in a society which encourages and condones murder being a pacifist is a high crime.

I
 
... So I think when you closely examine scientology as it is practice you realize that perhaps the people aren't bad is that they are being conditioned to behave badly. ...

The hypothesis falls apart when you stop to consider the prevalence of such behaviors among individuals who were never involved with scientology in any fashion. Scientologists have no monopoly on malice or stupidity, ergo it is unlikely that scientology can be singled out as the source for such behaviors.

In otherwords, it may be tremendously comforting to some that it must be scientology's fault but that can't represent the whole of the matter no matter how much of a comfort that would otherwise be to many ex's. The presence of similar behaviors among many diverse groups further supports that interpretation.

The most that can be attributed to the church is that it served as a catalyst to encourage & reinforce tendencies found in the population generally. Additonally, it engaged in such policies deliberately so as to promote the perceived interests of the senior management of the church.


Mark A. Baker
 

SomeGuy

Patron Meritorious
The hypothesis falls apart when you stop to consider the prevalence of such behaviors among individuals who were never involved with scientology in any fashion. Scientologists have no monopoly on malice or stupidity, ergo it is unlikely that scientology can be singled out as the source for such behaviors.

In otherwords, it may be tremendously comforting to some that it must be scientology's fault but that can't represent the whole of the matter no matter how much of a comfort that would otherwise be to many ex's. The presence of similar behaviors among many diverse groups further supports that interpretation.

The most that can be attributed to the church is that it served as a catalyst to encourage & reinforce tendencies found in the population generally. Additonally, it engaged in such policies deliberately so as to promote the perceived interests of the senior management of the church.


Mark A. Baker

I think you misunderstand my meaning. There are good and bad people every where. They will do good and bad things. Cults are one of the places where bad things go unpunished. Scientology has many processes which would be deemed anti social in any other situation outside of a cult like mentality.

That scientology has actual written policies to encourage what would be deemed as bad behavior by any social measure means that those of you who behave well in spite of it should be commended.

Excusing by saying bad people will do bad things seems to overlook a rather obvious reason why Claire is not in the Church of Scientology and a self professed ex freezoner.

Or we could go with the bad things happen and the ologies should be ignored. I'm just giving an opposing view point, that no scientology has some rather obvious bad shit in it.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
There's a 'mean shit' among ex's generally, as fifteen minutes spent browsing this or any other 'ex' board will readily establish. Scientology didn't invent 'being mean'. It can be argued that Hubbard made malice a matter of policy and many former members of the church seem to have learned how to take being mean to uncommonly advanced levels.

The real sadness lies in their failure to leave that sort of behavior behind when they leave the church, whatever their own position vis a vis the freezone may be.


Mark A. Baker


I can tell the difference between real outrage and partisan raeg.

Outrage is righteous.

Raeg is boring -- as is rudeness, intolerance, wilful misunderstanding, mischaracterization and zero empathy.

TG1
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Seeing as though I'm one who said "you've been warned" I'll take up your comments.

I see Scientology as dangerous and I warn people about it. I say to them on the internet & IRL that it is dangerous cult and should be avoided. I tell them to read up on the cult on the internet & find out about it.

Whilst I don't think the FZ is as dangerous as the official church, I still do think it's dangerous & yes I will warn people.

If you are to use the "it's only people" argument, then I guess the Church of Scientology is "only people too". What makes these "only people" dangerous in both camps is that they fuck with people's heads and pretend they have the answers when all along they can't keep their own noses clean.

Sure there might be no RPF in the FZ (yet) but you yourself have seen their blatant disregard for the mental health & safety of those they perceive as their "enemies" - like me. You saw how much they didn't care about the whole Pierre/Catherine/PC data saga. I've seen loads of thing on the FZ Yahoo groups that have made me go "WTF???? - I though these guys were different, but they aren't".

IMHO, neither the FZ or the CoS can be trusted with your money or more importantly your mental health & I will continue to warn people about that. You can take offence at that if you like and that's ok, you're entitled to your opinion.

But so am I.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
It is people. That's all it is. This can also be said of the Spanish Inquisition and the Puritan witchhunts.

People can be dangerous. People can also be noble.

My trepidation or reservations (not sure what to call it) about the FZ is that although Scn promises one would rise above being just a person (homo novis, OT, etc) one doesn't.

So, really, Emma, isn't "just people" enough?

Terril was having everything but the kitchen sink thrown at him in an accusatory way. He actually came in and answered a metric crapton of questions today. He gave specifics about some lady who dropped out of the IFA list. He gave specifics about many things. Sounded good to me.

I have known Terril for simply years and years. I've had the pleasure of knowing Mark Baker for two or three years. I know other FZers. I find many to be helpful but no more so than, say, a really nice Catholic priest or Buddhist monk or my masseuse who has read widely in a lot of areas and whose beliefs and feedback could best be described as somewhat new agey.

I saw real nastiness in the FZ. People like Ethier, and several defending him- I wouldn't give those people much more than the time of day. Don't trust 'em. Don't want anything to do with 'em.

But their nastiness stems from their own innate natures. Now, considering the fact that Scn states one would completely override such innate nature, then, yes, they are an extremely bad advertisement for the FZ. It was after my penultimate series of exchanges on the FZ list on yahoo groups about the Ethier threat (the one with the pc folders. Sadly, the Ethiers did not learn from this debacle and another attack followed, giving the FZ another black eye.) that I told my husband that his chances of getting me to go to another FZ convention or something of the sort were slim to none.

So for me, it's more that the FZ does not do what Scn advertises it will do for people as a blanket statement. That's enough. I've lived long enough to see that nothing does. But at least many other ologies and isms do not claim that they do so whereas Scn and, by extension, the FZ do and does make such a claim. IMO, that's one of the major problems with this stuff.

The reason I have a mild protest against the comments made today on the Ethier thread is that not only is the FZ guilty of not living up to what it's advertised to be (which is sufficiently negative) as opposed to being innately let's-send-everyone-in-cattlecars-to-the-gulag, but it also has helped people. Like me, when my folks died.

So it ended up not being the great hope of tomorrow. It didn't live up to its promise. But as human endeavors go, it's a mixed bag. So I view it like any other self help thing.

Which is a bit different than the comments to which I demur here.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I'm curious, it's been awhile since I read through some of the stories. Are "face rips", disconnection and various other command and control mechanisms that border on abuse a common thing in all ologies?

I wasn't talking about Scn as an ology (though I'm happy to do so). I was talking about the FZ. Please see thread title.

Though as an enthusiastic armchair historian, I can find historical examples and maybe even some present day ones in other ologies. Would you like me to?

I know it's the people that do those things but catholics aren't taught to go rape little boys although some of their priest do it. Hindus? Buddhists? Protestants?

My point exactly.

Yep they all have their share of abusive people what they don't really have is scriptures which tell their adherents to behave badly.

FZers are squirrels. They are heretics. Even the tech purists. Any who say they are pure techies and do not deviate from Hubbard are not being truthful. I saw NOTHING BUT picking and choosing amongst ANY Freezoner I knew. Just by not being too picky about the illegal pc thing and by not having freeloader debts and staff contracts- they diverge right there.

So they pick and choose. This puts it right back to people practicing an ology and some of them doing very badly indeed.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
By the way, I came into some extremely damaging info re someone that would probably rival the Ethier stuff if not dwarf it (no pun intended) completely. I cannot post it here, but I'm well aware of this.

The person involved, if they really did this terrible thing is

morally culpable - check

an example of someone with oodles of Scn background who yet did not rise about "the bank" and acted just as shitty as some of the people we write about here.- check

That's pretty goddamn bad as it is, really.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
I get your point Claire about "some are dangerous & some are noble" but that is individuals. Scientology takes away the choices of the individual and assimilates them into "group think" which is usually bad enough. But when "group think" becomes "Hubbard group think" then you have a dangerous group. People are a lot less inclined to be noble when they are locked into and indoctrinated into "Hubbard group think".

I agree that when it gets down to it that Terril is probably a decent guy. I know enough about Mark Baker to know he is a decent person and I have a lot of time for him.

However, put Terril in the "Hubbard group think" environment and I think he's dangerous. He tries to sell people Scientology in an uncontrolled environment with very little in the form of checks & balances. Scientology offers to fuck with your head at exorbitant pricing with no basis in Science or medicine. I think that's dangerous - in both the CoS or FZ. Terril ignores all the negative and just pushes his agenda. Most of the FZ do the same thing. Mark Baker is an exception to that.

Terril ignores what doesn't suit him, like not posting success stories when told 3 or 4 times. Terril has no regard for wog rules because he's on a "higher mission". I know how that feels because I used to be a brainwashed zealot myself.

To me that makes the group dangerous. Take the individuals out of the group and you might find them noble or brave. I see very little of that while in it. It happens but it's the exception, not the rule.
 

SomeGuy

Patron Meritorious
So they pick and choose. This puts it right back to people practicing an ology and some of them doing very badly indeed.

Would Ron's Orgers pick and choose? How about Pierre and his gang? Your freezone definition might need some work, my understand is that it's a rather large umbrella and hard to peg a method of practice on any given member.

Again, we agree good people will behave well and bad people will behave badly. Emma seems to be saying the same thing I'm saying. If you give bad people tools to be bad without repercussion you end up with bad things in any ology. Scientology, regardless of brand, seems to have some rather obvious tools that allow people to be very very bad.

I'm trying to find a modern day equivalent (I'd love to get into the spanish inquisition but it's really a moot point, it's done and over with) of fair game policy in any other ology. That's my point when there are scriptures with built in "be shitty to others" it absolves good people who would never normally do bad.
 
Not all of the people involved in Scientology are evil and not all of the people involved in the Nazi movement in 1930s Germany were evil, but as a group both are very evil and their goals are the same ... to force the entire world to become one of them. Those who do not comply are enemies and will be treated as such.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Scientology auditing is the practice of a bogus psychotherapy by untrained, unregulated, and unacountable people. This is equally true in all three branches of the Cult of Hubbard - Cof$ Cult, Freezone Cult, Independent Cult. I personally know several people who have been damaged by it - including one person who was sold lots of auditing, and didn't see a doctor, because they were led to believe that Scientology would handle their somatics. This beautiful person died due to the 'ministrations' of somebody little better than a backstreet abortionist, in my view.

But:

If you criticise it as a therapy, they say it's a religion. If you criticise it as a religion, they say it's a therapy.

Either way, it's a tissue of lies, and a playground for charlatans.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
However, put Terril in the "Hubbard group think" environment and I think he's dangerous. He tries to sell people Scientology in an uncontrolled environment with very little in the form of checks & balances. Scientology offers to fuck with your head at exorbitant pricing with no basis in Science or medicine. I think that's dangerous - in both the CoS or FZ. Terril ignores all the negative and just pushes his agenda. Most of the FZ do the same thing. Mark Baker is an exception to that.

I do promote Scn. I don't actually sell.

Its clearly my opinion that it is usefull. In fact despite recent and hopefully short lived disagreements Mark and I have quite similar opinions. I however am on a mission of promotion, and Mark is much less so.

My efforts to provide some " Checks and balances" have resulted in much attacks on myself personally. However my recent efforts resulted in Carmello doing stirling service for my friends which resulted in new businesses, new properties, happier life etc.

So did I do all this perfectly? No.

I could have just sat at my computer, stuck my nose in a book, and been a quite mouse.

However I long ago decided I would try and do the right thing, and
persuade others to also do so. This of course resulted in attacks on myself.

This has been going on for a decade.

I still though try to get the right things done. Despite knowing
I will be targetted. So e it.



Terril ignores what doesn't suit him, like not posting success stories when told 3 or 4 times. Terril has no regard for wog rules because he's on a "higher mission". I know how that feels because I used to be a brainwashed zealot myself.

I have posted some when the context seemed right.

You are the arbiter here.

You have moved in your viewpoint. So be it.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I do promote Scn. I don't actually sell.

Just a question out of curiosity: In those what must be very rare instances when you reg someone, do you get a cut of the profits like in the Cof$?

My efforts to provide some " Checks and balances" have resulted in much attacks on myself personally. However my recent efforts resulted in Carmello doing stirling service for my friends which resulted in new businesses, new properties, happier life etc.

You are unqualified to provide 'checks and balances' re the behaviour of your untrained, unlicenced, unacountable therapists, because you yourself are untrained, unlicenced, and unacountable. In regard to mental therapies you are nothing more than 'some bloke' with an opinion.

I could have just sat at my computer, stuck my nose in a book, and been a quite mouse.

It might be better if you did, looking from a public safety point of view.

Scientology: Not a therapy, not a religion.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Scientology: Not a therapy, not a religion.

Nor A SPIRITUAL journey to FREEDOM

For decades
from our own experiences
from friends in
form thousands of testimonies
from ex-prisonners
from escapees
from ex-enforcers of false emprisonments
from ex-enforcers of fair gamed
From ex-enforcers of labour camps
from ex enforcers of brainwashing tech
from victims of lie detector- months of harassement under 24H guard

from people who were ordered to abort
from mother who ''gave'' their children to the cult military elite
from the ones who are still enslaved and hidden in captivity

from the ones who left a letter prior to their suicide - in desperation
from the ones who died young - from cancer
from the one who suffer(ed) with sever ilnesses without proper care
From the ones who are permanently dammaged or died from the Introspection rundown

from children who had been raped
from children who have been abused with children labour
From children who are unable to escape - facing a dark futur

From the many who were and are tortured with sleep deprivation till thy loose their mind

from the thousands of broken families

from the thousands of bancrupted people (extortion regging practices)

From many who were mice and transformed into rats (squirrel buster - and Oaties-liability conditions)

From learning, applying 100% full time this cult teachings and expected conduct


I think

We can now make a logical judgement

that it IS DANGEROUS CULT
wich does not play into psycholigical - spiritual - physical betterment or freedom

We have decades of many example that this is a journey
into
despair - depresssion - psychosis - false emprisonement - abuses - terror - loneliness - harassment - down to a very dark downward spiral.

fortunately

some recover their mind to see it

Some , with a tremendous amont of courage,

even succed to deconstruct this cult behavior\thinking to free them to come back to their own sel-determinisn mind and conduct

unfortunately, some don't wake-up

I can't say why

Dependency ??? sense of belonging to a pseudo elite group ???? lack of courage to rebuild a new life on their own???? Too much brainwashing????

I don't know - I don't understand the reason for this blindness - especially when it comes to

''sacred'' fucked scriptures of hate and sociapathy of LRH
And to who LRH was really - taking into account whis writtings -stealing-lying-
behavior toward his family, ex-wives - children - people on Apollo - children abuse - and all his crap about being greed - violent and cruel toward his human fellows...

But one thing I realized on this board

is the infinite patience the formers have with people that continue to take advantage from so dangerous cult and still promote it and taking people in this scam...
They don't know how people are tolerant and carefull in not hurting them but mostly attack the practice - roots - results of the cult and the scriptures. (their attempt is to prevent and help to see the evidences)

I hope somoene coudl explain me, one day, how come they refuse to see the facts and stick to ''beleifs'' ????

All people who speak about LRH and his abuses are all liars????
All HCOPL and HCOB promoting to hate, to dammage - to destroy - are a joke ???? or fabricated?????

Why people don't give up when something is 'from all evidences' the most destroying practice to enslave human beings - why they stick to it????

:melodramatic:

Anyway

I laugh when they attack the formers of being haters - nattering - 1,1 bla bla bla ...
A chance they are surrounder by ex and wogs as they can live at peace - in these democratics countries
wich they don't succed to acheive between themselves as some reproduce the same patterns of the COS with ''ennemies and attacks''

Truly
people are tolerant and of great patience with you.
One day you might realize it .....I hope for you - this would mean you woke up.

I thanks all the ex who don't give up to protect people from this,
unified in a force to inform and prevent unecessary suffering from this cult

our own suffering may only take sense with doing so for our fellows human.
Nothing extraordinary - only taking care and bring it into action


* a lot of human beings are paying the price of their lives to free their countries presently - WTF we are going to enslave them with another dead dictator promoting the apocalyspe because of sp's ???:melodramatic:
Scamology is sticking to the fresh meat in these countries.
Thank's to the so called ''terrorits and punks'' of anonymous who cares and veil too.

You all show me that this world is better than I taught with the sequels of my Scamology mind.

Sorry it was long
sorry for my english!
 
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