FreeZone- my protest

Vittorio

Patron Meritorious
Many people on this site put up with the Cof$ because they fervently believed it had the only answers to the truth. Eventually or quickly, they found out otherwise. So they left. The FZ seems to be a group that still believes Scienwhatchamacallit works, and they object only to the goon squad tactics of the organization. So they continue the tech/dreck independently.

Most of us know that the tech gives only temporary eurphorias and nothing more. And that no matter who you pay for your floating needle jollies, it isn't worth it. So most of us aren't FZers. Personally, I feel that anyone who still believes that Scn. beyond a touch assist or a few other things that HumpBoard plagerized, works, is lost in space. But he/she is free to waste their money if they like.

I don't believe this to be uniform, but there is some truth in this. At least I started out that way. After I left the Church, I hit the internet and looked for some alternative. My philosophy was along the lines of standard tech, minus the alterations and organizational brutality.

I quickly realised that the lack of organization and a 'free for all' attitude is what stopped the groups from really being worthwhile. I also noticed that many of the people at the helm had spent the best part of two decades in the Church and seemed to lack what *I personally* felt was a worthwhile end phenomenon of all the auditing and study. I left and I got a bit mad with Terril, but that has subsided now. Something is only a hook in your head if you let it be. People only have power over them because you let them. I feel like I've taken out one big hook.

I consider myself Freezone in the truest sense of the word, and although this may sound a little arrogant, but I feel like I can truly study what I choose, commuicate with people on any subject I choose, make ammends where I feel it needed. There is no counter push from an a false sense of ethics, or who is source and what is standard.

I've actually really enjoyed reading L.Kins third part just this afternoon, whilst sat in the park. As I was watching a family (mentioned in another thread) I was reading the part about racism and atlantis and how the white race has been on earth since before Inc2 and may want 'their planet back', hence modern racism. And while to some the whole idea of atlantic and a preInc2 society much like todays, may be a load of hogwash, it does provide for a true metaphor.

Since I came on here at the weekend, I have started to have the improvement I have wanted for years. It's a nice feeling and I hope others get it too.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
They are all Freezoners to me ...

I wonder how many times people have been told that the FZ is just a blanket term, in a way, and the underlying "group" is NOT a group, but is only a loose knit- sometimes not even "knit" at all- group of individuals? Yet they keep on. Group group group.

I think they're so used to CofS that they can't help but have only that as a frame of reference, facts be damned.


It just isn't important here, Fluffy ... there are many breeds of dog but it's often easier (unless it really matters) to refer to the species as 'dog' rather than by breed ... and the term Freezoner communicates to Exes, who are still the main participants here.

Freezoners were once cofs scientologists that consequently left the cofs and took the tek with them, fiddled about a bit with it and now believe they have the real tek, but in reality most are full of shite and I wouldn't go to one for counseling even if my life depended on it (and I'll continue to call them all Freezoners, because I can).



:lol:
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Can't remember who it was now, but someone here gave me a handy hint when trying to delineate the out-of-COS milieu. There's the FreeZone and there's the Free Zone - the way to remember it is to think to yourself "Free Space Zone". Still makes me chuckle.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

I just wouldn't refer to all the many flavors of Protestantism as just Christianity as if it were all the same. When I talk about Baptists, I say it's a Baptist.

One of the reasons the FZ has far less of the clusterfuck crap is that it's not centralized. However, it does have its flaws and I consider that mainly due to two things:

Scn does not deliver what is promised so people who are "OTs" or "Class Vis" or "Class XIIs" and who think they are going to be better than other humans here are sadly mistaken. So then you get problems in the FZ cuz you get problems in any human venue.

Territorial Imperative.
 

Vittorio

Patron Meritorious
Why did you get mad with me?

You are promoting an un-reformed movement, headed by individuals who were high up in Scientology.

A reformed movement might be brave enough to remove some of the written stuff, even make slight alterations here and there and have unanimous policy and on things which were a grey area in the Church, such as Sp declares, sexuality, ethics etc etc.

But then only an SP would want to change source materials and then we end up back on the vicious cycle! It makes the subject hard to reform.

There is definitely truth when critics state that the problem with Scientology, is that a lot of the materials are not Hubbards, or that source is the problem, or that the Church ARE trying to apply standard tech as much as possible. Unless something changes, this dismal scene will continue.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

I just wouldn't refer to all the many flavors of Protestantism as just Christianity as if it were all the same. When I talk about Baptists, I say it's a Baptist.

One of the reasons the FZ has far less of the clusterfuck crap is that it's not centralized. However, it does have its flaws and I consider that mainly due to two things:

Scn does not deliver what is promised so people who are "OTs" or "Class Vis" or "Class XIIs" and who think they are going to be better than other humans here are sadly mistaken. So then you get problems in the FZ cuz you get problems in any human venue.

Territorial Imperative.

When I want to say Baptist, Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, or whatever, I say "Christian". They all believe that Christ died for their sins. The rest is details. I don't buy their first assumptions, and so the details don't matter.

With Scientologists, I feel the same way. Since the purpose of Scientology is to make Ron (or whoever is standing on his "lines") money, I choose to get off the bus before it starts.
 
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

... and now believe they have the real tek,...​

More accurately fz'ers generally refer to the aspects of scientology tech which they continue to use or expand upon as constituting a workable spiritual technology, although one that is not assumed to be necessarily complete.

This tech is workable in that it serves as a practical, effective, beneficial, and moderately quick amalgam of techniques for producing a result satisfactory to an individual seeking assistance in resolving personal confusions or for attaining a greater sense of personal spiritual insight. The results of application are often seen by the individuals involved as positively transformative.

The term workable is particularly favored as it is one of the more reasonable and accurate terms historically used by hubbard in promoting the subject originally. In itself it makes no claim of being innately 'optimal' or 'best', but merely effective for the intended purpose when used sensibly and with the general welfare & well-being of the involved parties in mind.


Mark A. Baker
 
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

When I want to say Baptist, Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, or whatever, I say "Christian". They all believe that Christ died for their sins. The rest is details. I don't buy their first assumptions, and so the details don't matter. ...

Not all who profess themselves as 'christian' believe any such thing. Details matter greatly when it comes to understanding & knowledge.


Mark A. Baker
 

Terril park

Sponsor
You are promoting an un-reformed movement, headed by individuals who were high up in Scientology.

A reformed movement might be brave enough to remove some of the written stuff, even make slight alterations here and there and have unanimous policy and on things which were a grey area in the Church, such as Sp declares, sexuality, ethics etc etc.

But then only an SP would want to change source materials and then we end up back on the vicious cycle! It makes the subject hard to reform.

There is definitely truth when critics state that the problem with Scientology, is that a lot of the materials are not Hubbards, or that source is the problem, or that the Church ARE trying to apply standard tech as much as possible. Unless something changes, this dismal scene will continue.

You may wish to post a wish list!
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

Not all who profess themselves as 'christian' believe any such thing. Details matter greatly when it comes to understanding & knowledge.


Mark A. Baker

Please, tell me all about the Christians who don't believe that Christ was the Son of God, who was sacrificed so that the sins of man could be forgiven.

I'm all ears.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

When I want to say Baptist, Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, or whatever, I say "Christian". They all believe that Christ died for their sins. The rest is details. I don't buy their first assumptions, and so the details don't matter.

With Scientologists, I feel the same way. Since the purpose of Scientology is to make Ron (or whoever is standing on his "lines") money, I choose to get off the bus before it starts.

That's a shame, because that approach will only make the person appear ignorant. The differences in theology are marked, sometimes even extreme.
 
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

Please, tell me all about the Christians who don't believe that Christ was the Son of God, who was sacrificed so that the sins of man could be forgiven.

I'm all ears.

Stopped by a christian church lately? Not all churches are fundamentalist in their creed, nor do all the members subscribe to the official sectarian dogmas.

I've several friends who self-identify as christians. Some are regular church members even to the point of participation in church management & affairs. By no means do all of them accept the nicene creed as definitive of the faith, even among those who are intimately involved with and knowledgeable of their church.

Frankly it has amused me to hear so much outright heresy coming from those who think of themselves as 'mainstream traditional christian'. I'm particularly amused by those who deny the doctrine of original sin yet who still do maintain that christ was sent as the redeemer. They rarely get the irony. :biggrin:

It's particularly amusing to debate them from a perspective of orthodox dogma and watch them flounder to fit their faith to tradition.

Don't confuse your own religious preconceptions and bias, Kev, with the actual beliefs to which others adhere. Not all who profess religious faith are doctrinaire in their beliefs, any more than all who profess themselves to be students of the sciences observe strictly to reason in their own beliefs.


Mark A. Baker
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

That's a shame, because that approach will only make the person appear ignorant. The differences in theology are marked, sometimes even extreme.

No, it makes the person appear as if he doesn't care about the differences because in the context of what is being discussed here on ESMB, it rarely matters.
 
Dude, check out the name: Christ-ians.

If Christ ain't involved, it's something else.

A. Christ is a title, not a name. Jesus christ as an appellation is comparable to Elizabeth Regina, It connects a named individual with a title with certain historic connotations which vary depending upon the cult & culture.

B. A profession of faith in the christ need not REQUIRE belief in christ as a redeemer. For many christians faith in christ has meaning to them in personal terms not consistent with traditional theology.

C. It's not MY beliefs which are in question.

D. Your presumptions about its meaning are not necessarily shared by all who adopt the term christian in regards to themselves.

E. Those who routinely and explicitly express no interest in matters of religous belief RARELY qualify as informed or interesting commentators upon matters of theology, whether the issues in question are subtle or not. :biggrin:

F. Study a bit of comparative theology BEFORE you propound upon the nature of OTHER PEOPLE'S's religious beliefs. :eyeroll:


Honestly, Kev, do you even bother to think about a post before responding to it?


Mark A. Baker
 
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Vittorio

Patron Meritorious
A. Christ is a title, not a name. Jesus christ as an appellation is comparable to Elizabeth Regina, It connects a named individual with a title with certain historic connotations which vary depending upon the cult & culture.

B. A profession of faith in the christ need not REQUIRE belief in christ as a redeemer. For many christians faith in christ has meaning to them in personal terms not consistent with traditional theology.

C. It's not MY beliefs which are in question.

D. Your presumptions about its meaning are not necessarily shared by all who adopt the term christian in regards to themselves.

E. Those who routinely and explicitly express no interest in matters of religous belief RARELY qualify as informed or interesting commentators upon matters of theology, whether the issues in question are subtle or not. :biggrin:

F. Study a bit of comparative theology BEFORE you propound upon the nature of OTHER PEOPLE'S's religious beliefs. :eyeroll:


Honestly, Kev, do you even bother to think about a post before responding to it?


Mark A. Baker

Can we get back to discussing the Freezone? Some times Mark, I feel you try and derail threads a bit, so people are talking about anything but the Freezone. It might have been uniquemand that raised the issue of Christianity, or yourself even further back.

Lets not derail threads under the guise of being clever and knowledgeable about other subjects.
 

Vittorio

Patron Meritorious
Re: They are all Freezoners to me ...

More accurately fz'ers generally refer to the aspects of scientology tech which they continue to use or expand upon as constituting a workable spiritual technology, although one that is not assumed to be necessarily complete.

This tech is workable in that it serves as a practical, effective, beneficial, and moderately quick amalgam of techniques for producing a result satisfactory to an individual seeking assistance in resolving personal confusions or for attaining a greater sense of personal spiritual insight. The results of application are often seen by the individuals involved as positively transformative.

The term workable is particularly favored as it is one of the more reasonable and accurate terms historically used by hubbard in promoting the subject originally. In itself it makes no claim of being innately 'optimal' or 'best', but merely effective for the intended purpose when used sensibly and with the general welfare & well-being of the involved parties in mind.


Mark A. Baker

This is the sort of thing I may have wrote 5-6 years ago.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Can we get back to discussing the Freezone? Some times Mark, I feel you try and derail threads a bit, so people are talking about anything but the Freezone. It might have been uniquemand that raised the issue of Christianity, or yourself even further back.

Lets not derail threads under the guise of being clever and knowledgeable about other subjects.

Mark and Terril have been consistently doing that with threads about the Freezone for Years.

Well spotted :thumbsup:
 
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