FROM BLOWNFORGOOD - DM IS REDOING THE ENTIRE GRADE CHART

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
The Scientology Organization/Movement is a *secular* movement, about *secular* power. Secular Power without 'reason' is universally an abomination. Ergo: The Scientology Organization is an abomination.

Secular power is to a degree nessecary for survival. Sadly it is the history of spiritual conquests on this planet to devolve into secular greed and defensive power grabs.

Just because I need food and shelter does not invalidate my spiritual seeking. That the organizations that "we" (people) create to help us in our seeking, rely to some extend on material power, wealth, does not logically result in them being abominations.


[/QUOTE]
Why does Scientology 'spirituality' need 'secular power'? Why does Scientology spirituality need an 'organization' and a 'movement'?

Zinj[/QUOTE]

The movement was created to capture your attention Zinj, so that we can subltly and surrepticiously fuck with your head. We need the power so we can force you to become clear. And dont think we are not planning on it!
:coolwink:

alex
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I certainly think that Cervantes made a nifty little metaphoric statement about the absurdity of life.....

I dont watch movies with Robin Williams if they have any serious content. Choice.

I dont reject the usefulness of reason, only its place.

alex

Which 'reason'?
Deductive reasoning?
Inductive reasoning?
Divine revelation (or, an equivalent non-theist version)?

I can see a 'place' for any and even all of the above, but, which is Scientology?

Zinj
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Alex wrote:

Well! That is an interesting answer!

Can you demo that out for me with a real life example?

Sorry, not at the moment. I already have enough mass for that significance and should be working, not playing at the moment.

But I am sure your environment has plenty of small objects suitable for such...
:)

Please feel free to experience your own truth.

alex
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Sorry, not at the moment. I already have enough mass for that significance and should be working, not playing at the moment.

But I am sure your environment has plenty of small objects suitable for such...
:)

alex

Flunk!

Blown Student!!!
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Reason is the use of what is known, to predict the outcome of something."

Not by the dictionary.

"Reason: The basis or motive for an action, decision, or conviction."
American Heritage Dictionary

Reason in that sense cuts a pretty wide swath. You could justify a wish for amplitude as "reason" to act in any way, for example.

If I understand you correctly you don't want to be constricted by the past in order to act in the future because a sense of detachment from form makes creation a good deal more fun. In that I entirely agree.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Please feel free to experience your own truth.
:) :)

alex

Thanks, I do.

Informed by reason as much as possible, of course.

Any time you want to demo out a real life example of how reason abrogates ones cause to past consideration, I'd be happy to check it out for you.

Otherwise, here's a routing form to go down to the 3rd floor of ESMB HQ, where they strip away glib Hubbardous platitudes and turn theetie wheetie students into steely-eyed firebreathers who can apply what they learn!
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
Because the Scientology definition of knowledge is too often "Feelings of Truthiness".

Ah yes, "Feelings of truthiness" - one of my all-time favorite (sp for Alanzo, one-time only special offer) LRH quotes.

Knowingness is a tricky one. Has anyone had a real McCoy genuine knowingness while in a body? So many things can be mistaken for it: gut feeling, picking up theta comm, high degree of familiarity with a subject, restimulation, even BTs I guess, etc.

Hubbard often spoke of theoretical truths in the high theta realm as if he had a total grasp on them. His assertions may all be correct but I don't think he could claim to "know".

Cheers

tanstaafl
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
"Reason is the use of what is known, to predict the outcome of something."

Not by the dictionary.

"Reason: The basis or motive for an action, decision, or conviction."
American Heritage Dictionary

Surely, there's another definition along the lines of logical thinking?

And yes, sorry, I will stop calling you Surely. :)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Otherwise, here's a routing form to go down to the 3rd floor of ESMB HQ, where they strip away glib Hubbardous platitudes and turn theetie wheetie students into steely-eyed firebreathers who can apply what they learn!

Sounds like a job for the False Data Stripping module of Paul's Robot Auditor!

Oh, that reminds me. A few days ago I noticed that one of the referring URL's to a hit on that site came from a chiro's message board. Some poster there had mentioned Scientology and FDSing, and someone else had given a link to my Robot FDSer. At the time, when I searched Google for "False Data Stripping" my Robot FDSing article was #3. I don't know where it is now, although my post to that chiro board offering to answer any questions is at #30! That chiro board is full of ex-chiros saying what a scam chiropractic is. It's a bit like ESMB. Without Emma and Bea and Alan and Alanzo and Emmazo and Beazo and .... :)

Paul
 

Div6

Crusader
Ah yes, "Feelings of truthiness" - one of my all-time favorite (sp for Alanzo, one-time only special offer) LRH quotes.

Knowingness is a tricky one. Has anyone had a real McCoy genuine knowingness while in a body? So many things can be mistaken for it: gut feeling, picking up theta comm, high degree of familiarity with a subject, restimulation, even BTs I guess, etc.

Hubbard often spoke of theoretical truths in the high theta realm as if he had a total grasp on them. His assertions may all be correct but I don't think he could claim to "know".

Cheers

tanstaafl



Knowingness is a very powerful place to be. We keep a lot of self-generated "lies" in place to prevent knowingness, as A) it collapses Space and Time and B) it is a "no game" condition.


I have experienced it quite a bit. When I first went "knowingly exterior", for example.....I "knew". On occasion, upon meeting some one in this life time, I have had "knowingness" about what I could expect from them. Both good and bad. After finishing the FPRD basic list, I went ext from the physical universe, as close to "static" as I have ever been. It was quite exhilarating. It was the lack of havingness or rather, desire for future havingness that led me back in.

So, to expect a high school drop out to revise the grade chart in a way that would improve it is stretching my credulity beyond its tolerance level....

ymmv
 
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Tanstaafl

Crusader
I have experienced it quite a bit. When I first went "knowingly exterior", for example.....I "knew". On occasion, upong meeting some one in this life time, I have had "knowingness" about what I could expect from them. Both good and bad. After finishing the FPRD basic list, I went ext from the physical universe, as close to "static" as I have ever been. It was quite exhilarating. It was the lack of havingness or rather, desire for future havingness that led me back in.

Nice. I hope you get some more of that.

So, to expect a high school drop out to revise the grade chart in a way that would improve it is stretching my credulity beyond its tolerance level....

Presumably DM will have to fall back on some LRH quotes to justify such action. I was reading a Class VIII lecture transcript over the weekend and Hubbard mentions that some guys could start the Bridge at Grade IV........... hmmmm.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Surely, there's another definition along the lines of logical thinking?

And yes, sorry, I will stop calling you Surely. :)

There are, but largely as verbs:


"VERB:
rea·soned , rea·son·ing , rea·sons
VERB:
intr.

To use the faculty of reason; think logically.
To talk or argue logically and persuasively."
American Heritage Dictionary

Here is the point. Reason as a verb is a tool. Reason as noun is capacity, potential, therefore in both parts of speech, reliant on the user/owner for relative value. Alex is using it as a known quantity. Any known quantity has its limits. Does reason?

Additionally, that fine and lofty word has passed through the lips and pens of some of the finest minds and spirits known to man. I am unable to dispatch it to the graveyard as an out of date relic without a few words of comfort and support.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Knowingness is a very powerful place to be. We keep a lot of self-generated "lies" in place to prevent knowingness, as A) it collapses Space and Time and B) it is a "no game" condition.


I have experienced it quite a bit. When I first went "knowingly exterior", for example.....I "knew". On occasion, upon meeting some one in this life time, I have had "knowingness" about what I could expect from them. Both good and bad. After finishing the FPRD basic list, I went ext from the physical universe, as close to "static" as I have ever been. It was quite exhilarating. It was the lack of havingness or rather, desire for future havingness that led me back in.

So, to expect a high school drop out to revise the grade chart in a way that would improve it is stretching my credulity beyond its tolerance level....

ymmv

High school dropouts can have knowingness too!

Lots of it!
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
There are, but largely as verbs:


"VERB:
rea·soned , rea·son·ing , rea·sons
VERB:
intr.

To use the faculty of reason; think logically.
To talk or argue logically and persuasively."
American Heritage Dictionary

Here is the point. Reason as a verb is a tool. Reason as noun is capacity, potential, therefore in both parts of speech, reliant on the user/owner for relative value. Alex is using it as a known quantity. Any known quantity has its limits. Does reason?

Additionally, that fine and lofty word has passed through the lips and pens of some of the finest minds and spirits known to man. I am unable to dispatch it to the graveyard as an out of date relic without a few words of comfort and support.

Got it. Thanks.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
There are, but largely as verbs:


"VERB:
rea·soned , rea·son·ing , rea·sons
VERB:
intr.

To use the faculty of reason; think logically.
To talk or argue logically and persuasively."
American Heritage Dictionary

Here is the point. Reason as a verb is a tool. Reason as noun is capacity, potential, therefore in both parts of speech, reliant on the user/owner for relative value. Alex is using it as a known quantity. Any known quantity has its limits. Does reason?

Additionally, that fine and lofty word has passed through the lips and pens of some of the finest minds and spirits known to man. I am unable to dispatch it to the graveyard as an out of date relic without a few words of comfort and support.


Reason: (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/reason)
2 a (1): the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence (2): proper exercise of the mind (3): sanity b: the sum of the intellectual powers

The entity who creates the context in which reason exists, should be capable of also creating other or larger contexts.

It is the power of creation, choice pure, which is the entity who births reason.

Will>reason.

alex
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks, I do.

Informed by reason as much as possible, of course.

Any time you want to demo out a real life example of how reason abrogates ones cause to past consideration, I'd be happy to check it out for you.

Otherwise, here's a routing form to go down to the 3rd floor of ESMB HQ, where they strip away glib Hubbardous platitudes and turn theetie wheetie students into steely-eyed firebreathers who can apply what they learn!

Sorry I always dub in leather masked guys with whips when I think of going downstairs.

But perhaps if you have some misunderstanding of the concept I put forth, you could demo it until you are able to then reasonably dispute it.

alex
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Sorry I always dub in leather masked guys with whips when I think of going downstairs.

But perhaps if you have some misunderstanding of the concept I put forth, you could demo it until you are able to then reasonably dispute it.

alex

I wouldn't want to by-pass your hat of providing a coherent and persuasive rationale for your conclusions.

Plus, I'm fresh out of justifications for L Ron Hubbard and his platitudes.

So maybe you could provide me with one?
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
I wouldn't want to by-pass your hat of providing a coherent and persuasive rationale for your conclusions.

Plus, I'm fresh out of justifications for L Ron Hubbard and his platitudes.

So maybe you could provide me with one?

I believe you are suffering from what us scientologists call "dub-in".

That is a situation where a person fills in gaps in their understanding with some preconceived notions or data their attention is stuck on.

You have somehow confused me with someone responsible for your education, and who is worried you might not accept what I say, and for someone tasked with defending Hubbard or what he said.

If you dont wish to discuss what I have said, before being it being "proved" to you, fine.

Perhaps it is for the best, and the thread can get back to DM's revamping the grades.

alex
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I believe you are suffering from what us scientologists call "dub-in".

That is a situation where a person fills in gaps in their understanding with some preconceived notions or data their attention is stuck on.

You have somehow confused me with someone responsible for your education, and who is worried you might not accept what I say, and for someone tasked with defending Hubbard or what he said.

If you dont wish to discuss what I have said, before being it being "proved" to you, fine.

Perhaps it is for the best, and the thread can get back to DM's revamping the grades.

alex

Maybe so.

But my concern is that a lot of these platitudes by Hubbard can become unexamined considerations, what Scientologists call "fixed ideas", which can lie like boils in the folds of the mind until they are tested, squeezed and popped by the light of reality.

If this is not a fixed idea, then there should be no problem in showing how, in the real world, "reason abrogates one's own cause to past consideration" by a couple real life examples.

That you will not provide one, means that you can not, because reason does not do that at all. Reason is a skill that allows one to preserve the truth during their thinking process, and which leads to better choices in life - just as Hubbard advertised for his "Data Series".

Hubbard concocted slogans like you parroted above for people to believe so that their ability to reason would be crippled, while he held out the Data Series for them to use instead.

Does following the Data Series abrogate one's own cause to past consideration, too?

Why not?
 
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