Veda
Sponsor
I'm curious as to your thoughts on Ron Hubbard's 1955 book, the one he called the 'Brainwashing Manual'/'Textbook on Psycho-Politics'.
From Miss X - About Annie Broeker
- Thread starter Lulu Belle
- Start date
I'm curious as to your thoughts on Ron Hubbard's 1955 book, the one he called the 'Brainwashing Manual'/'Textbook on Psycho-Politics'.
Cheers Jim. I will certainly try to respect anybody who continues with Scn.
I do post challenging posts and sometimes prod what I percieve to be complacency and I expect the same in return. I believe we grow by having our opinions challenged every now and then. This wasn't allowed in the CofS but it is one of the benefits of ESMB.
For example the other day I agreed with TI about my causation of my experience of Scn. Veda challenged my statement and so I looked at it and re-evaluated my cause. This helped me spot an new aspect of the overt that I committed by being in the CofS. It turned up a pocket of hidden charge and allowed me to discharge it. I got a slightly different view of my cause over what happened. So Veda, by disagreeing with me, was a great teacher and benefactor for me.
If I criticise your beliefs, please do question me about it and if we both speak with respect, we should both learn from the experience.
I assume you are still persuing Scn in the independent field. Does this mean you are doing the "upper levels"?
That's where I diverge from Scn. The lower, non-confidential levels were mostly wonderful in my experience. But the upper levels just seem to be a gross auditor code break to me. What do you think?
radar
Patron
Hello everyone, this is my first post so let me tell you a little about myself.
Firstly let me say, I'm not a Scientologist, however, I was a member of a cult organisation for 18yrs, namely: The Watchtower Bible and Tract society, and although Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses have very different belief systems, the organisational structure and controls are similar.
I've been left that cult for about 7yrs now. You may wonder why I'm posting on here particularly under this topic about Annie Brooker?
I got a book on Dianetics about two years ago. A nice young woman approached me in the street and because I had time on my hands and she was pretty, I allowed her to escort me into a building and do, what you refer to a stress test/audit The young woman did very well asking various questions and using the "detector" but I could see at the end of the session that she wanted me to purchase a book. I could read the expression, I'd seen it before in people's eyes, I knew she would feel a sense of failure if I refused so I purchased the book.I could sympathise because I'd once been in a similar situation.
Since that day, I've had many letters/emails about buying books or
buying tickets to seminars or buying videos etc from scientology I ignored them of course until the other day when I was sent a link in an email and I
watched the Roosevelt Harris video. It was like looking at a video
that I would have made 20 years ago about myself. It also brought back
memories of similar accounts that were publicised in Watchtower literature
Well I've been researching Scientology for just a little while now and that's how I found this forum. I was quite happy to browse the posts but when I began to read this topic and read Jim Logans posts I felt I must say something.
Jim's your obviously very intelligent and like most scientologists appear to have a thirst for knowledge and understanding, which has led to a journey of discovery. Your first post on here obviously raised a lot of interest because having "connections in high places" as the saying goes. Surprisingly despite the bad experiences within the organisation, you are now here defending the principles of scientology. Quite a brave thing to do.
However, I have to point out that I've seen this happen before and on a number of occasions on Ex Jehovah's Witness forums.
There is saying amongst Jehovah's Witnesses : WHERE ELSE SHALL WE GO TO? those words are taken from the Christian writings in the Bible and the governing body of the Watchtower often used that saying to re-enforce the idea that if a JW had complaints, he/she should not blame the organisation with its lofty principles but the people who fail to apply those principles in their lives correctly. Its all part of mind control and millions of JWs around the world are kept in that organisation believing that if they experience bad things its just imperfections amongst themselves not the watchtower at fault
This understanding is re-enforced by that declaration i.e.: what other organisation can possibly match the truths and brotherhood that they've experienced since being members. Does this sound familiar?
Some JWs go suicidal or have real mental problems after being separated from their cult and some will defend their religious abusers because they can't imagine life without being with their spiritual family even if these people hurt them. I think that what's happening here.
Anyway, At the moment I'm in communication with Beth Stilo of the Captain Flag Crew. He's sent me an invitation to Flag Fort Harrison, I think he believes I'm part of the Sea Org. I was emailing one of his colleges using terminology and knowledge I'd picked up from my researches, anyway I let you know how I get on.
Firstly let me say, I'm not a Scientologist, however, I was a member of a cult organisation for 18yrs, namely: The Watchtower Bible and Tract society, and although Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses have very different belief systems, the organisational structure and controls are similar.
I've been left that cult for about 7yrs now. You may wonder why I'm posting on here particularly under this topic about Annie Brooker?
I got a book on Dianetics about two years ago. A nice young woman approached me in the street and because I had time on my hands and she was pretty, I allowed her to escort me into a building and do, what you refer to a stress test/audit The young woman did very well asking various questions and using the "detector" but I could see at the end of the session that she wanted me to purchase a book. I could read the expression, I'd seen it before in people's eyes, I knew she would feel a sense of failure if I refused so I purchased the book.I could sympathise because I'd once been in a similar situation.
Since that day, I've had many letters/emails about buying books or
buying tickets to seminars or buying videos etc from scientology I ignored them of course until the other day when I was sent a link in an email and I
watched the Roosevelt Harris video. It was like looking at a video
that I would have made 20 years ago about myself. It also brought back
memories of similar accounts that were publicised in Watchtower literature
Well I've been researching Scientology for just a little while now and that's how I found this forum. I was quite happy to browse the posts but when I began to read this topic and read Jim Logans posts I felt I must say something.
Jim's your obviously very intelligent and like most scientologists appear to have a thirst for knowledge and understanding, which has led to a journey of discovery. Your first post on here obviously raised a lot of interest because having "connections in high places" as the saying goes. Surprisingly despite the bad experiences within the organisation, you are now here defending the principles of scientology. Quite a brave thing to do.
However, I have to point out that I've seen this happen before and on a number of occasions on Ex Jehovah's Witness forums.
There is saying amongst Jehovah's Witnesses : WHERE ELSE SHALL WE GO TO? those words are taken from the Christian writings in the Bible and the governing body of the Watchtower often used that saying to re-enforce the idea that if a JW had complaints, he/she should not blame the organisation with its lofty principles but the people who fail to apply those principles in their lives correctly. Its all part of mind control and millions of JWs around the world are kept in that organisation believing that if they experience bad things its just imperfections amongst themselves not the watchtower at fault
This understanding is re-enforced by that declaration i.e.: what other organisation can possibly match the truths and brotherhood that they've experienced since being members. Does this sound familiar?
Some JWs go suicidal or have real mental problems after being separated from their cult and some will defend their religious abusers because they can't imagine life without being with their spiritual family even if these people hurt them. I think that what's happening here.
Anyway, At the moment I'm in communication with Beth Stilo of the Captain Flag Crew. He's sent me an invitation to Flag Fort Harrison, I think he believes I'm part of the Sea Org. I was emailing one of his colleges using terminology and knowledge I'd picked up from my researches, anyway I let you know how I get on.
I have audited an ex-JW quite extensively and the aberative effects of that cult certainly leave their mark on a person.
There was an expression doing the rounds a while ago that getting a guy out of the Church was easy compred to the task of getting the church out of the guy. JW's have the same problem. You've been taught to think within that paradigm and when you then got disfellowshipped and you left the buildings and the people but you took your paradigm with you.
There is one difference here. With you the religion and the JW church were the same thing. To many on this board the same was true of Scientology and the CofS. But to many others, myself included, Scientology and the CofS are two VERY different things and always have been.
So leaving the church (for me ) was an easy task once I'd made the decision. But I have never left the subject of Scientology. The guys on this board have all left the Church of Scientology, but have varying degrees of support (or not) for the basic subject of Scientology.
There was an expression doing the rounds a while ago that getting a guy out of the Church was easy compred to the task of getting the church out of the guy. JW's have the same problem. You've been taught to think within that paradigm and when you then got disfellowshipped and you left the buildings and the people but you took your paradigm with you.
There is one difference here. With you the religion and the JW church were the same thing. To many on this board the same was true of Scientology and the CofS. But to many others, myself included, Scientology and the CofS are two VERY different things and always have been.
So leaving the church (for me ) was an easy task once I'd made the decision. But I have never left the subject of Scientology. The guys on this board have all left the Church of Scientology, but have varying degrees of support (or not) for the basic subject of Scientology.
radar
Patron
Hi Leon
you are obviously know more of the science of scientology than I. and
I know what your saying. Yet there are still similarities here also. A JWs after leaving the watchtower may chose to accept the principles of christianity and live by them apart and seperate from the watchtower organisation.
There are however certain aspects of christianity that require observable acts of faith,which takes things into the metaphysicsl realm, such as the observence of the Lords evening meal (last supper)
this then becomes a religious practice and not lfor example.. 3rd dynamic (group dynamics)
It's when a person still holds on to the belief structure that implies faith that I would say then they are mentaly still part of the that organisation.
You make a distinction between church(organisation) and practice/theory (scientology)
But from my research, practice/theory of scientolgy(without the church structure) by its very nature touches on the metaphysical and therefore to my mind cannot be distinguished purely as science of thought.
road to Xenuby Margery Wakefield stories I found very interesting.
you are obviously know more of the science of scientology than I. and
I know what your saying. Yet there are still similarities here also. A JWs after leaving the watchtower may chose to accept the principles of christianity and live by them apart and seperate from the watchtower organisation.
There are however certain aspects of christianity that require observable acts of faith,which takes things into the metaphysicsl realm, such as the observence of the Lords evening meal (last supper)
this then becomes a religious practice and not lfor example.. 3rd dynamic (group dynamics)
It's when a person still holds on to the belief structure that implies faith that I would say then they are mentaly still part of the that organisation.
You make a distinction between church(organisation) and practice/theory (scientology)
But from my research, practice/theory of scientolgy(without the church structure) by its very nature touches on the metaphysical and therefore to my mind cannot be distinguished purely as science of thought.
road to Xenuby Margery Wakefield stories I found very interesting.
Free to shine
Shiny & Free
Welcome Radar! I am very interested to learn more of the similarities here. When you emerge from a 'cult' situation there is always the tendency to think it is an isolated and isolating experience, that no-one else could possibly understand the trauma of having your belief system disintegrate and the need to reassemble it in some form in order to survive.
By 'belief system' I don't particularly mean things that have to be taken on faith, more the viewpoint you have on the world and your place in it.
For example in Scientology, if you are sick or have a major illness, you are looked down on and basically scorned for 'not making it go right' and applying the principles and so on. Is there anything similar with JWs?
Veda
Sponsor
Leon -
If the ideas and methods of the book, called, by Hubbard, 'The Brainwashing Manual' were subtracted from the subject of Scientology, would it still be the subject of Scientology? Or would it be a different subject?
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=2697
radar
Patron
Free to shine
Thanks for the welcome
Here's a few for starters:
If you accepted a blood transfusion you were expelled from the congregation and no JW in the world was allowed to speak to you not even family members (who did not live with you)
If a person appeared unhappy at meetings etc, it was regarded as a deficiency in that person, that somewhere in his life he failed to apply spiritual knowledge, .Jehovah’s people are a happy people was the slogan printed in watchtowers.
If you missed meetings you were regarded as being spiritually weak and looked upon with suspicion by the congregation and often left out from social invitations.
You could not rise in the ranks if you did not perform well with regard to placing literature or making converts. This put enormous pressure on children of parents who wanted to see their kids do well in the organisation
Thanks for the welcome
Here's a few for starters:
If you accepted a blood transfusion you were expelled from the congregation and no JW in the world was allowed to speak to you not even family members (who did not live with you)
If a person appeared unhappy at meetings etc, it was regarded as a deficiency in that person, that somewhere in his life he failed to apply spiritual knowledge, .Jehovah’s people are a happy people was the slogan printed in watchtowers.
If you missed meetings you were regarded as being spiritually weak and looked upon with suspicion by the congregation and often left out from social invitations.
You could not rise in the ranks if you did not perform well with regard to placing literature or making converts. This put enormous pressure on children of parents who wanted to see their kids do well in the organisation
Alan
Gold Meritorious Patron
I developed a rundown I call the Cult De-Oppression R/D.
The purpose of which was to find out why I and others were pre-disposed to being part of Cultic behavior.
Scientology turned out to be just a lock on earlier Cults.
The two most destructive Cults that underlay Scio (for me)were - The macho-man Cult - - which created me as anti-everything rebel - very destructive on relationships - and the British Empire Cult - very heavy on creating you as a broken piece - and submissive to people bred into higher positions.
The other fascinating part was much of my Cultic behavior stemmed from my family - more by genetic indoctrinations.
Alan
The purpose of which was to find out why I and others were pre-disposed to being part of Cultic behavior.
Scientology turned out to be just a lock on earlier Cults.
The two most destructive Cults that underlay Scio (for me)were - The macho-man Cult - - which created me as anti-everything rebel - very destructive on relationships - and the British Empire Cult - very heavy on creating you as a broken piece - and submissive to people bred into higher positions.
The other fascinating part was much of my Cultic behavior stemmed from my family - more by genetic indoctrinations.
Alan
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Would you like to publish the Cult De-Oppression Rundown for the participants of this board, Alan?
I think that would be smashing!
Vinaire
Sponsor
Alan
Gold Meritorious Patron
The problem is there are some 36 Bulletins for this rundown.
I will select some which will help separate Cult think and behavior. (Maybe!)
Here is one for the cult of the ex-cultists!
THE CULT OF THE EX-CULTISTS
In researching Program Incidents or Group Implantation Techniques the following rather deadly behavior patterns have emerged.
These are some of the tacit agreements often enforced by the Cult they belonged to and at times also enforced by the Cults of the ex-Cultists.
An ex-Cultist didn't exist before joining the Cult they are now ex from.
An ex-Cultist never has an original thought. (All thought always was from the former Cult.)
An ex-Cultist never has an original observation. (All observation always was from the former Cult.)
An ex-Cultist is always a plagiarist, who stole their ideas from the former Cult.
An ex-Cultist’s only frame of reference is the former Cult.
An ex-Cultist is and always will be created by the former Cult.
Etc., etc.
The above are often secretly and tacitly agreed upon by the ex-Cultists. TACIT SABOTAGE OF SELF AND OTHERS.
The above tacit agreements often creates BLACKNESS, STUPIDITY and UNMOCKS present time creations.
The two things that create areas of blackness on a case are:
1. Wrong Date/time. — Blocks accuracy and capabilities of Observation and thought.
2. Wrong duration. — You only existed during the time in the Cult.
These tacit agreements, incorrect dates and durations can do immense harm to a Being as they deny the beings earlier greatness.
For those of you on these lines:
1. Did you exist before your Cult?
2. Where?
3. When?
4. Repeat to a win.
5. Have you existed since leaving your Cult?
6. Where?
7. When?
8. Repeat to a win.
9. Did you have an original thought before your Cult?
10. Where?
11. When?
12. What was it?
13. What were the consequences of that?
14. Repeat to a win.
15. Have you had an original thought since leaving your Cult?
16. Where?
17. When?
18. What was it?
19. What were the consequences of that?
20. Repeat to a win.
21. Did you have an original observation before your Cult?
22. Where?
23. When?
24. What was it?
25. What were the consequences of that?
26. Repeat to a win.
27. Have you had an original observation since leaving your cult?
28. Where?
29. When?
30. What was it?
31. What were the consequences of that?
32. Repeat to a win.
As you can observe, connecting to ex-Cultists can sometimes leave you pushed out of present time and cemented into some unhealthy agreements.
It certainly can limit the scope of who you really are, and what you are really capable of.
Alan
Alan
Gold Meritorious Patron
I just read your write up on
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1958&page=18
great stuff!
Interesting parallels
Bea Kiddo
Crusader
I just read your write up on
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1958&page=18
great stuff!
Interesting parallels
Alan, Thats what I would like to be C/Sed for, k? That is cool. (The x cult thing. I have no idea why I quoted the above. I am out of it. Tired from long work day.)
Hello Jim,
I'm a late arrival to this thread. I've read your posts and am interested in getting some of your thoughts on a couple of things I've wanted to reconcile more completely, concerning the subject of outpoints observed.
One outpoint is the subject of LRH himself. If the Bridge to Total Freedom were factual, why did he have strokes, suffer from outpoints in his own thinking, and need Vistaril at the end of his life? Did this subject ever come up with Annie, and if so, what input did she have on this?
Another is, what is your envisioned handling of the situation present current in the Church? How can this situation be reverted to a more ideal scene?
Also, where are the OTs? I agree with your observed pluspoints of the tech working at lower levels. However, the idea of an OT has only been read about, never observed by myself. Namely, LRH did not manifest this state, as evidenced by his later poor health, both mental and physical. And so I find little motivation to pursue a further advance up the "Bridge". (Are you soloing? What is your motivation if so?)
I'm a late arrival to this thread. I've read your posts and am interested in getting some of your thoughts on a couple of things I've wanted to reconcile more completely, concerning the subject of outpoints observed.
One outpoint is the subject of LRH himself. If the Bridge to Total Freedom were factual, why did he have strokes, suffer from outpoints in his own thinking, and need Vistaril at the end of his life? Did this subject ever come up with Annie, and if so, what input did she have on this?
Another is, what is your envisioned handling of the situation present current in the Church? How can this situation be reverted to a more ideal scene?
Also, where are the OTs? I agree with your observed pluspoints of the tech working at lower levels. However, the idea of an OT has only been read about, never observed by myself. Namely, LRH did not manifest this state, as evidenced by his later poor health, both mental and physical. And so I find little motivation to pursue a further advance up the "Bridge". (Are you soloing? What is your motivation if so?)
Alan
Gold Meritorious Patron
THE GURU AND CULT CREATION SEQUENCE
This is part of the Cultural De-Oppression and De-Programming Procedures.
The cycle goes approximately something like this:
1. You being fully Present.
2. Being Omni-Sovereign or Sovereign. Owning Own Universe.
3. Violation of OWN High Spiritual thoughts or Codes, Virtues, Principles, Standards, etc.
4. Being furious about having violations.
5. Plunging into confusion, guilt and remorse, etc.
6. Electing someone else to be responsible for your life, giving up more of your sovereignty.
7. Being created by whom you have elected. Beginning of cultification.
8. Creating others as cultists, creating the guru as the only one who knows.
9. Running an ‘I’m right, you’re wrong’ on anything or anyone who doesn't agree with you.
10. Developing a siege mentality as you upset more and more people.
11. Pulling in your space and cutting your connections until you will only associate with your own select people.
12. Very selective perceptions. Very fixed ideas. Tending to decline down the Zones scale into the deep Red Zone levels.
13. Subject illiterate on almost all other aspects of life and livingness.
14. Emotional abuses and running ‘you can't have’ to force compliance.
15. Resorting to physical abuses to get viewpoints applied or agreed upon.
16. Implantation and continuous program techniques to force agreement.
17. Covert drug and alcohol abuse by adherents.
18. Robotic.
19. Constantly under attack by others, which proves you were right in the first place.(Self fulfilled prophecy. Paranoid in the extreme.)
20. Believing everyone is out to get you - and they are.
The Culture De-Oppression and De-Programming Procedure which handles this is very long. The material it pulls up is very insidious. The suppression is very subtle.
It appears the Cult is more created by the adherents than the leader. A Cult is, after all, a massive solution to a problem: The violations of ones basic Codes, Virtues, Principles, Standards, etc.
As the Procedure unfolds you find you are both a Cult creator as well as being created by the Cult. It appears the Cult leader loses control of the creation at some point. Probably when they put out too many wrong whys, or they themselves commit a gross violation.
For me it has uncovered some very important areas. Enough has come to view that I now have to go through all my materials and eradicate any "cult mentality programs" I might have laid in.
You know the punishment for any implanter is to get implanted by his own implant.
For the Guru it would be to be trapped studying his own creation.
Hopefully this erases the destructive cult aspect out of all of our materials.
Alan
This is part of the Cultural De-Oppression and De-Programming Procedures.
The cycle goes approximately something like this:
1. You being fully Present.
2. Being Omni-Sovereign or Sovereign. Owning Own Universe.
3. Violation of OWN High Spiritual thoughts or Codes, Virtues, Principles, Standards, etc.
4. Being furious about having violations.
5. Plunging into confusion, guilt and remorse, etc.
6. Electing someone else to be responsible for your life, giving up more of your sovereignty.
7. Being created by whom you have elected. Beginning of cultification.
8. Creating others as cultists, creating the guru as the only one who knows.
9. Running an ‘I’m right, you’re wrong’ on anything or anyone who doesn't agree with you.
10. Developing a siege mentality as you upset more and more people.
11. Pulling in your space and cutting your connections until you will only associate with your own select people.
12. Very selective perceptions. Very fixed ideas. Tending to decline down the Zones scale into the deep Red Zone levels.
13. Subject illiterate on almost all other aspects of life and livingness.
14. Emotional abuses and running ‘you can't have’ to force compliance.
15. Resorting to physical abuses to get viewpoints applied or agreed upon.
16. Implantation and continuous program techniques to force agreement.
17. Covert drug and alcohol abuse by adherents.
18. Robotic.
19. Constantly under attack by others, which proves you were right in the first place.(Self fulfilled prophecy. Paranoid in the extreme.)
20. Believing everyone is out to get you - and they are.
The Culture De-Oppression and De-Programming Procedure which handles this is very long. The material it pulls up is very insidious. The suppression is very subtle.
It appears the Cult is more created by the adherents than the leader. A Cult is, after all, a massive solution to a problem: The violations of ones basic Codes, Virtues, Principles, Standards, etc.
As the Procedure unfolds you find you are both a Cult creator as well as being created by the Cult. It appears the Cult leader loses control of the creation at some point. Probably when they put out too many wrong whys, or they themselves commit a gross violation.
For me it has uncovered some very important areas. Enough has come to view that I now have to go through all my materials and eradicate any "cult mentality programs" I might have laid in.
You know the punishment for any implanter is to get implanted by his own implant.
For the Guru it would be to be trapped studying his own creation.
Hopefully this erases the destructive cult aspect out of all of our materials.
Alan
They cannot possibly be "subtracted" from Scientology because they were never ever a part of Scientology. They are part of that corrupt and oppressive subject practiced by the current Church of Scientology.
Perhaps if you subtracted it from that you might end up with something.
One of the best de-culting exercises one can do on one's own is a reading of The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.
It is so uncannily precise in its descriptions of the Sea Org and Scientology that it just indicates the item page after page.
Highly recommended to all.
It is so uncannily precise in its descriptions of the Sea Org and Scientology that it just indicates the item page after page.
Highly recommended to all.
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