From Miss X - About Annie Broeker

[Veda]

Pshaww, Fair Game was cancelled, but how the SP case is handled is how it is handled, and that hasn't changed because if it's done it works and the guy is himself, which isn't a case condition and he isn't an SP anymore. You haven't studied or used this material and have a spectator only experience. You are a mere 'critic' having never written a play. How many people have you run through an engram? How many people have you done an L1C on when their dog died? How many have you helped understand their math courses? What do you know about using this data anyway? Nyah, nyah, nyah, like some sort of GAT drill goes the parrot.

Sorry, that wasn't very social. Geez, where are those circuits. Oh, there they are, 'why what a wonderful piece of investigative journalism you have done and presented us to our shock and surprise, he IS a poo poo head. Why didn't I see it earlier before all this 'time' was wasted.'

Wait a sec, that isn't the right circuit... I'll have to let this one go. I'll be back. Maybe.

OK, I'm back, and sorry about any smart alecy stuff. I sometimes let the Highlander that I am loose and I do apologize. I guess the thing is, I know all these arguments. I've done my homework and there comes a time when you move on. They are resolved. Not that what you are saying isn't valid, that there ARE things that have not been done well. YOU are absolutely right. I am choosing a different route to deal with these irrational issues which you see. I have experienced and seen at my own hands, others experience incredible gain with Scientology. I personally don't give a tat about LRH as a man. He did some outrageous stuff in a packed life. I can't claim I haven't fallen from grace. Nonetheless, Scientology works. That's what is important to me.

Again, sorry if I got steppy on toesy there. Good luck to you all. I'll be around for and field stuff as I find time. My love to each. Jim

If you think Fair Game was cancelled, then you are in deep denial.

I've "run people through engrams" and "done L1C's" and many more things - I'm no spectator.

But maybe you should become a spectator for a while and look.

Right now, you're specializing in unlooking.

 

[petraph33]

Dear Jim,
this sounds great, in theory, but belief me, I was on management lines for more than 15 years and unfortunately it does not work out that way. I am aware that I am a causative being and this is why I left and will stay well away from the subject. KSW is very clear in that there is no departure from what Ron said. I have never seen a Policy cancelled because someone found Policy is wrong and while it might have been in the early days a more research oriented subject, KSW put an end to that as well as Admin Degrades. Especially in the SO you have very tight control on it's application and enforcement of "standard" (meaning Ron's brand) ethics, tech and policy. You can now say, yes, but look at the admin scale purpose is above policy, yes, but if the purpose is to get ethics in on this planet and the universe and to keep scientology working, we are right back at the point of KSW. I am sorry, it just does not work that way. It is a well controlled "freedom" within Scio. That does not mean that all of the tech is unusuable - there are usuable basics and ideas but you can also find these elsewhere, outside of Scio. What bothers me is that in Scio there is only one way or the highway. And that is exactly what is being enforced through KSW to control everything and everyone to ensure there is no "other ideas" coming into the subject. While inside this all sounds very rational, protective and reasonable. Wow, what a subject and how it is all worked out and protected. When you look at it from the outside you realize that this is not freedom. This is total control. Come again?.....
Petra

 

[lionheart]

I agree with Veda and Petraph33.

Jim, are you really saying Fair Game wasn't applied after the supposed cancellation of it? Or are you saying those who did apply it afterwards were off-policy and not following Command Intention?

LRH devised the Fair Game policy and whatever the public status of the policy, it was LRH who set up the GO and commanded MSH and Jane Kember to apply GO policy towards "SP's" and opponents.

Jim, you say "but how the SP case is handled is how it is handled, and that hasn't changed because if it's done it works and the guy is himself, which isn't a case condition and he isn't an SP anymore"

Can you give a single example that you observed of this actually happening? The tech has several references to how an SP case can now be successfully handled. This was often accompanied by an hurrah of triumph by LRH in his tech issues. BUT when was an SP case ever handled to the point where the person wasn't an SP anymore as defined by the CofS or LRH? I believe in differentiating between what LRH said and what actually happened, between what the tech issues say and what the tech results actually were. So I would be most interested in any personal experience anyone has of the correct tech being used to un-SP an SP.

Also Jim, I would respectfully point out that people on this board try as best they can to show mutual respect while disagreeing. Classifying Veda as a "mere critic" when you clearly don't know much about Veda's history and experience is not an "appropriate tenor" to use your own phrase.

You requested that people treated you with the "appropriate tenor". By the same token you should also treat others in the way you wish them to treat you. (LRH reference "The way to Happiness")

To pigeonhole someone who criticises some aspects of LRH or SCN as a "mere critic" is disrespectful. LRH discouraged disagreement - we don't have to do the same, we are free beings and always were.

 

[petraph33]

I agree with Veda and Petraph33.

Jim, are you really saying Fair Game wasn't applied after the supposed cancellation of it? Or are you saying those who did apply it afterwards were off-policy and not following Command Intention?

LRH devised the Fair Game policy and whatever the public status of the policy, it was LRH who set up the GO and commanded MSH and Jane Kember to apply GO policy towards "SP's" and opponents.

Jim, you say "but how the SP case is handled is how it is handled, and that hasn't changed because if it's done it works and the guy is himself, which isn't a case condition and he isn't an SP anymore"

Can you give a single example that you observed of this actually happening? The tech has several references to how an SP case can now be successfully handled. This was often accompanied by an hurrah of triumph by LRH in his tech issues. BUT when was an SP case ever handled to the point where the person wasn't an SP anymore as defined by the CofS or LRH? I believe in differentiating between what LRH said and what actually happened, between what the tech issues say and what the tech results actually were. So I would be most interested in any personal experience anyone has of the correct tech being used to un-SP an SP.

Also Jim, I would respectfully point out that people on this board try as best they can to show mutual respect while disagreeing. Classifying Veda as a "mere critic" when you clearly don't know much about Veda's history and experience is not an "appropriate tenor" to use your own phrase.

You requested that people treated you with the "appropriate tenor". By the same token you should also treat others in the way you wish them to treat you. (LRH reference "The way to Happiness")

To pigeonhole someone who criticises some aspects of LRH or SCN as a "mere critic" is disrespectful. LRH discouraged disagreement - we don't have to do the same, we are free beings and always were.

Great post

 

[Vinaire]

Dear Jim,
this sounds great, in theory, but belief me, I was on management lines for more than 15 years and unfortunately it does not work out that way. I am aware that I am a causative being and this is why I left and will stay well away from the subject. KSW is very clear in that there is no departure from what Ron said. I have never seen a Policy cancelled because someone found Policy is wrong and while it might have been in the early days a more research oriented subject, KSW put an end to that as well as Admin Degrades. Especially in the SO you have very tight control on it's application and enforcement of "standard" (meaning Ron's brand) ethics, tech and policy. You can now say, yes, but look at the admin scale purpose is above policy, yes, but if the purpose is to get ethics in on this planet and the universe and to keep scientology working, we are right back at the point of KSW. I am sorry, it just does not work that way. It is a well controlled "freedom" within Scio. That does not mean that all of the tech is unusuable - there are usuable basics and ideas but you can also find these elsewhere, outside of Scio. What bothers me is that in Scio there is only one way or the highway. And that is exactly what is being enforced through KSW to control everything and everyone to ensure there is no "other ideas" coming into the subject. While inside this all sounds very rational, protective and reasonable. Wow, what a subject and how it is all worked out and protected. When you look at it from the outside you realize that this is not freedom. This is total control. Come again?.....
Petra

It is the interpretation of KSW within CoS, and by the critics, that is wrong. CoS is interpreting Ethics as punishment and not as rationality.

In 1967 LRH wrote:

Scientology addresses Man the Spirit, not Man the Machine. As long as we address the spirit, as long as we return to the individual some belief and faith in himself, he gets better, brighter, his IQ goes up, his ability to handle things gets better, he gets more powerful, more persistent and he becomes kinder and more merciful, more tolerant, less critical. If we start treating the Machine we get a patched up broken leg.

The spirit of Man has gotten so little acknowledgment and there’s been so much acknowledgment to the individual as a body, that people have begun to feel safe in the destruction of bodies because all a body can do is hit or fire a gun. What feeling of guilt could you possibly get? None. So we get a lessening of a feeling of moral responsibility.


Just the opposite of this is taking place in the Church of Scientology where MEST in the form of money, buildings, and bodies rules. LRH himself has been responsible for the alter-is. He could not have very well risen above his case.

But, then, LRH is no longer there. Why beat on a dead horse. He has left a philosophy and techniques that may be applied well instead of misapplied, and even be advanced.

And that is happening too. John Galusha has been a big part of that advance.

.

 

[Vinaire]

I agree with Veda and Petraph33.

Jim, are you really saying Fair Game wasn't applied after the supposed cancellation of it? Or are you saying those who did apply it afterwards were off-policy and not following Command Intention?

I would say that any "application of policy" that results in broad harm is a misapplication of that policy. Using "command intention" is just an excuse for that misapplication.

Data series covers this well.

.

 

[lionheart]

It is the interpretation of KSW within CoS, and by the critics, that is wrong. CoS is interpreting Ethics as punishment and not as rationality.

In 1967 LRH wrote:

Scientology addresses Man the Spirit, not Man the Machine. As long as we address the spirit, as long as we return to the individual some belief and faith in himself, he gets better, brighter, his IQ goes up, his ability to handle things gets better, he gets more powerful, more persistent and he becomes kinder and more merciful, more tolerant, less critical. If we start treating the Machine we get a patched up broken leg.

The spirit of Man has gotten so little acknowledgment and there’s been so much acknowledgment to the individual as a body, that people have begun to feel safe in the destruction of bodies because all a body can do is hit or fire a gun. What feeling of guilt could you possibly get? None. So we get a lessening of a feeling of moral responsibility.


Just the opposite of this is taking place in the Church of Scientology where MEST in the form of money, buildings, and bodies rules. LRH himself has been responsible for the alter-is. He could not have very well risen above his case.

But, then, LRH is no longer there. Why beat on a dead horse. He has left a philosophy and techniques that may be applied well instead of misapplied, and even be advanced.

And that is happening too. John Galusha has been a big part of that advance.

.

I agree. All we have to do is remind ourselves of LRH's alter-is and not-is of the tech. Once we have recognised LRHs lies. Then we can view the tech newly and with un-LRHed eyes. We can untangle LRH "Source" from the tech. We can view what is logical in the tech and what is LRH-bullsh*t and apply it newly with un-LRHed eyes and minds to see what actually works and what doesn't.

This is the freedom we all inherit when we leave the CofS.

 

[Vinaire]

I agree. All we have to do is remind ourselves of LRH's alter-is and not-is of the tech. Once we have recognised LRHs lies. Then we can view the tech newly and with un-LRHed eyes. We can untangle LRH "Source" from the tech. We can view what is logical in the tech and what is LRH-bullsh*t and apply it newly with un-LRHed eyes and minds to see what actually works and what doesn't.

This is the freedom we all inherit when we leave the CofS.

Going by LRH's untested opinions is the worst one can do. That would amount to being "hypnotized" by LRH. That would also mean "not understanding" LRH because LRH had warned against this very thing. He emphasized in PDC 1 to separatie his opinions from the actual tech.

Actual tech works not because of LRH's say-so, but because it duplicates the fabric of existence.

.

 

[Vinaire]

Scientology has become misinterpreted in the West by the emphasis on mechanics and bodies.

.

 

[lionheart]

Going by LRH's untested opinions is the worst one can do. That would amount to being "hypnotized" by LRH. That would also mean "not understanding" LRH because LRH had warned against this very thing. He emphasized in PDC 1 to separatie his opinions from the actual tech.

Actual tech works not because of LRH's say-so, but because it duplicates the fabric of existence.

.

That's true. But it demonstrates another example of LRH's squirrelling and not-ising of Scn basics. In the SO, which was created and controlled by LRH, he punished those who disagreed with his opinions and enforced compliance with his "Source" Command Intention. To a lesser degree he also achieved compliance with his opinions in the non-SO Orgs. (Eg HCOPL KSW)

So I guess you are saying that SO and staff were hypnotised by Hubbard.

I wouldn't use that word myself. I prefer to say that he achieved suggestability in his SO and Org "slaves". ("all men are my slaves" - LRH admissions).

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

In 1967 LRH wrote:

Scientology addresses Man the Spirit, not Man the Machine. As long as we address the spirit, as long as we return to the individual some belief and faith in himself, he gets better, brighter, his IQ goes up, his ability to handle things gets better, he gets more powerful, more persistent and he becomes kinder and more merciful, more tolerant, less critical. If we start treating the Machine we get a patched up broken leg.

The spirit of Man has gotten so little acknowledgment and there’s been so much acknowledgment to the individual as a body, that people have begun to feel safe in the destruction of bodies because all a body can do is hit or fire a gun. What feeling of guilt could you possibly get? None. So we get a lessening of a feeling of moral responsibility.

Allright! I see Hubbards incessant, and compulsive, rant about humans being considered animals or bodies by contemporary science. I always considered that a propaganda line.. Fact is that contemporary science recognises that humans have self conscience and intelligence, and in addition to that morals and ethics. Hubbard is trying to make us really offended at that. He's inviting us into a conflict. Realize that it is a marketing/PR caper. It's called 'positioning against'.

As for being recognised as a 'spirit'.. Bleh.. I never was in $cientology! Quite the contrary. I was being treated like a fool to be jerked around and fork over the money. - Besides, I wouldn't know why that would be so incredibly wonderful.. OTOH.. A fool is concievebly a spirit?

Is Hubbard trying to pull our leg here? - Being treated with respect or not would seem to be the question. Not being treated as a 'spirit' or a 'body', which seems rather irrelevant to me.

And people have NOT begun to feel safe in destruction of bodies! - Everyone I heve ever known, myself included, would feel guilty by causing injury and/or someones death. In fact society (in the western world at least) has been in a steady statistical uptrend for hundreds of years. We can now enjoy good healt care, safe living to an average age about 75. That age is on the increase too.

And pretty good justice!

Compare the current justice system to being Hanged, drawn and quartered as was done in the 1800rds. And witch burnings.. hmm.. As an example of some women who were 'recognised as spiritual beings' eh?

So we have here a 'stat' for the justice system of our society. Does that look like a 'downward spiral'?

 

[Vinaire]

Well, take it from here without wasting your time in "LRH bashing."

.

 

[lionheart]

Allright! I see Hubbards incessant, and compulsive, rant about humans being considered animals or bodies by contemporary science. I always considered that a propaganda line.. Fact is that contemporary science recognises that humans have self conscience and intelligence, and in addition to that morals and ethics. Hubbard is trying to make us really offended at that. He's inviting us into a conflict. Realize that it is a marketing/PR caper. It's called 'positioning against'.

As for being recognised as a 'spirit'.. Bleh.. I never was in $cientology! Quite the contrary. I was being treated like a fool to be jerked around and fork over the money. - Besides, I wouldn't know why that would be so incredibly wonderful.. OTOH.. A fool is concievebly a spirit?

Is Hubbard trying to pull our leg here? - Being treated with respect or not would seem to be the question. Not being treated as a 'spirit' or a 'body', which seems rather irrelevant to me.

And people have NOT begun to feel safe in destruction of bodies! - Everyone I heve ever known, myself included, would feel guilty by causing injury and/or someones death. In fact society (in the western world at least) has been in a steady statistical uptrend for hundreds of years. We can now enjoy good healt care, safe living to an average age about 75. That age is on the increase too.

And pretty good justice!

Compare the current justice system to being Hanged, drawn and quartered as was done in the 1800rds. And witch burnings.. hmm.. As an example of some women who were 'recognised as spiritual beings' eh?

So we have here a 'stat' for the justice system of our society. Does that look like a 'downward spiral'?

Yes, it was part of LRH's creation of cult-mentality. Scientology good, wog-world bad. Scientology equals spirit, wog-world equals machine body. Scientology good, wog-world bad. Repeat: Scientology good, wog-world bad.

I agree about a general upward trend in justice (with major fluctuations!). I did a poll long ago on here about the dwindling spiral. That is a major tenet of Scn and the major control mechanism that Hubbard used to keep us on-board.

From what I see there is generally an increasing awareness of others and increasing compassion and respect towards them. Social responsibilty does seem to have increased over the recent centuries, so I think Ron's conclusion that there is a decrease in social responsibilty is incorrect. But it is a great tactic for creating a cult.

Care about others is one factor in the improvement in health care and longevity. But another factor in this is the identification as and with the body and the consequent reluctance to let them go. So there is an element of truth in what Ron says - there has to be for any cult to be effective.

 

[lionheart]

Well, take it from here without wasting your time in "LRH bashing."

.

One person's "LRH bashing" is another person's process of viewing exactly as it is! :wink2:

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

heh.. I head a story when I was 'in'.. That Hubbard once threw a real brain at the floor during a lecture.. Smack!.. yelling: "I am NOT a brain!"

Well, if he was flatfooted the cause was not the weight of his brain.. I'll give him that.

Whether we are spirits or meatballs is a most intriquing question. A question I can't answer.. And I'll never again accept someone telling me the answer. I think it's unknowable..

I think most people see themselves as a 'person'.. A 'me'.. Not my body.. I did before I encountered $cientology. It was not something I pondered a lot.. I considered that the 'me' effect, conscience, was the brain doing what it's supposed to do... Note that I considered that I was definitly a 'spiritual' being. Only that the 'spiritual' quality was a brain function.

Well, we are either spirits or meatballs.. willy nilly.

 

[Vinaire]

One person's "LRH bashing" is another person's process of viewing exactly as it is! :wink2:

OK. Take your time.

.

 

[lionheart]

heh.. I head a story when I was 'in'.. That Hubbard once threw a real brain at the floor during a lecture.. Smack!.. yelling: "I am NOT a brain!"

Well, if he was flatfooted the cause was not the weight of his brain.. I'll give him that.

Whether we are spirits or meatballs is a most intriquing question. A question I can't answer.. And I'll never again accept someone telling me the answer. I think it's unknowable..

I think most people see themselves as a 'person'.. A 'me'.. Not my body.. I did before I encountered $cientology. It was not something I pondered a lot.. I considered that the 'me' effect, conscience, was the brain doing what it's supposed to do... Note that I considered that I was definitly a 'spiritual' being. Only that the 'spiritual' quality was a brain function.

Well, we are either spirits or meatballs.. willy nilly.

What you resist you become! Didn't poor Ron end up with a brain tumour? Or is my memory of what I've read defective?

I think he protested being a brain rather too much for his own good.

For some reason I'm reminded of the sad story of the neighbour coming across the dying Ron in the barn or garage and poor Ron saying "Ron's not here." There are no words to express the sad irony ....

 

[lionheart]

OK. Take your time.

.

Thanks. You too.

You imply "viewing exactly as it is" is something one will come out of in time.

What would be the position, once one has finished "viewing exactly as it is"?

Is there a superior position to adopt once one has finished "viewing exactly as it is"?

How can one finish "viewing exactly as it is"?

Are LRH's axioms invalid?

 

[Vinaire]

Allright! I see Hubbards incessant, and compulsive, rant about humans being considered animals or bodies by contemporary science. I always considered that a propaganda line.. Fact is that contemporary science recognises that humans have self conscience and intelligence, and in addition to that morals and ethics. Hubbard is trying to make us really offended at that. He's inviting us into a conflict. Realize that it is a marketing/PR caper. It's called 'positioning against'.

As for being recognised as a 'spirit'.. Bleh.. I never was in $cientology! Quite the contrary. I was being treated like a fool to be jerked around and fork over the money. - Besides, I wouldn't know why that would be so incredibly wonderful.. OTOH.. A fool is concievebly a spirit?

Is Hubbard trying to pull our leg here? - Being treated with respect or not would seem to be the question. Not being treated as a 'spirit' or a 'body', which seems rather irrelevant to me.

And people have NOT begun to feel safe in destruction of bodies! - Everyone I heve ever known, myself included, would feel guilty by causing injury and/or someones death. In fact society (in the western world at least) has been in a steady statistical uptrend for hundreds of years. We can now enjoy good healt care, safe living to an average age about 75. That age is on the increase too.

And pretty good justice!

Compare the current justice system to being Hanged, drawn and quartered as was done in the 1800rds. And witch burnings.. hmm.. As an example of some women who were 'recognised as spiritual beings' eh?

So we have here a 'stat' for the justice system of our society. Does that look like a 'downward spiral'?

I doubt if westerners can ever duplicate the viewpoint in the Vedas and in Buddhism. It is very much misduplicated by the majority in east itself. I wonder if even LRH duplicated it fully.

"Destruction of bodies" is the wrong issue. You can hurt life that way too. The actual issue is treating life as bodies by just focusing on mechanics and bodies.

Look at the corporate world of America. Why is the junk food being promoted in massive quantities and not being quarantined? And then we find all that worry about health. Our problems are our own creation due to fixation on bodies.

.

 

[Div6]

I was reflecting on this thread on the way in to work this morning....
Application of the data series has a vital pre-requisite, and that is being able to LOOK. Not with pre-conceived ideas, but to just Look.
This ability seems rare. But it is the essence of applying the data series. Otherwise the "outpoints are in the eye of the beholder".

I see this way too much on the C\S lines in orgs. When you have executives running around, violating the "Ivory Tower Rule" invariably they tend to "C\S" others for what they themselves need. And once that occurs, you have lost the integrity of the subject in it's entirety, and are just in it for the money.

This also touches on other aspects. The whole idea of "optimal solutions" (ie: greatest good for the greatest number) should be upgraded, as it leaves too much open to potential abuse. What we want are "perfect" solutions. Solutions optimum for ALL dynamics. Otherwise you perpetuate a games condition that will never run out. To me, that was what the "elite" of the SO was supposed to be about.


One last thought...if "Old St. HIll" was actually staffed by 95% SP's (which is what appears to be the case, from the list of people declared) then shouldn't we throw out ALL of the original OEC, except for the most basic of policies? In fact, shouldn't the "does not violate HCOPLs" be limited to the Management Series and Know-How PL's?