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From One Foot Out

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Will call tomorrow - am dying to find out why we are M & Ms '"Advance Team" now. :D

OSA finally win one - hope that raises morale amongst their battered troops 'cause they'll need it for the darker days ahead.:yes:

Advice for OSA - bring doc.s:happydance:

Maybe somebody will do a poll of who would go back under what circumstances.

Hell freezing over wouldn't do it for me.

Would amnesty - plus a $300,000 signing bonus for returning plus all the T & P to get all certs back current plus travel, acommos, etc to do that, throw in $100,000 a year for expenses until all is done. Plus 6 kha khans issued to me.

And guess what ? No thank you.

( How was that for polite and civil and giving the orginator of this e mail " a fair go )".
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I have been receiving a few emails about MR and MR anonymously, but most of them seem to be CofS trolling. This one isn't obviously so, and it was requested that I post this. So here it is. I don't agree with the perspective, but the writer could be correct. The part about the long downtrend in the CofS is obvious, though.

Message follows:

I've taken all I can take, and I can't take no more. I'm not going to tell you who I am, where I am or what I do, but I'm sitting in a position to see the big picture by connecting together the data passing through. Shit, I am surprised; I haven't seen anyone out there among you, put this together yourselves, so it I'm crossing the River Styx.

The cartel that is in control of the CofS, regardless of all the lying boasts of growth, has long been aware of its downtrending membership and income. The same public can only be squeezed for finances so much and for so long. The need to keep up the appearance of being true to a "source" that expired in 1986 does place limitations on how many times "new and improved" products and services can be successfully marketed - especially given the dwindling market. Those, who have an accustomed level of cash flow, remain bent on maintaining that level, and will consider and apply any method(s).

Bear in mind that often, with an organization that controls and takes in enormous amounts of money in ways that, if known, would endanger its continuing, the real power(s) often hide behind a figurehead who enjoys the attention while in reality acting as a lightning rod for their masters, who find it convenient for that figurehead to believe he is powerful and important. These powers can have little or no concern for how employees are treated or compensated by that figurehead, as it is no liability to them as long as the cash flow is maintained.

Powers so motivated, observing a down trending income, find this unacceptable, and are now amenable to finding or accepting a new manager / lightning rod who they believe will provide the best bang for their buck. They may encourage competition between potential candidates and the incumbent, as they can only benefit from this. The rewards of compensation of money and power make it a highly pressured competition, not unlike politics.

This downtrend would not be so steep if there was a sufficient stream of new customers, but with the negative word of mouth coming from all of those riding the exodus out of the organization, Scientology has become a very tough sell. This leaves as the greatest potential untapped market former adherents of the CofS who remain believers in the doctrine, but do not trust the current management.

The ideal choice at this time becomes a figure that former adherents could trust and rally around. Enter Mark ("Marty") Rathbun. If he could garner widespread support among the disaffected, and deliver back to CoS substantial numbers of pre-indoctrinated public, he could ride this wave to the top management position. In a blaze of celebratory promotion, and in the terms CoS members are accustomed to, it is broadly announced that "The suppressive squirrel who has been working all this time to destroy Scientology has at long last been rooted out", a "Suppressive Person Declaration" with particulars several pages long is issued, "Basic Scientology is now being restored across the planet under the caring direction of the new Executive Director International", and "A full amnesty" is declared for all those "good Scientologists driven out by out-tech and injustice".

All this, of course, hinges on Rathbun's success in garnering observable widespread support among the disaffected. To that end, Mr. Rathbun has assembled an advance team. His people apply Scientology principles to ingratiate themselves to disaffected Scientologists and then, having gained acceptability, use whatever credibility gained to promote acceptance of himself well enough that he can then step into the scene without risking negative public reaction and win people over.

It appears that he's had some success, mainly with former Sea Org members who served in his era and during their tenure had become accustomed to holding him in high esteem, but that hasn't accumulated anywhere near the substantial numbers needed to triumph over the incumbent "COB", The telling blow would be to win over the popular active "free zone" auditors, which would ultimately entail bringing them "back into the fold" so that they would turn in PC folders to CoS, and/or sign Sea Org contracts themselves, resulting in a significant flow of both paying public and staff, and giving an appearance that "all is now right" in the CoS, with a resultant marked improvement in marketability to potential fresh customers.

Rathbun has not had notable success in this effort, almost universally being rebuffed in his attempts to make inroads directly with operating "free zone" opinion leaders. It appears that for the most part, they have experience of conflicts with the CoS in which Rathbun was an aggressor toward them, and they are unimpressed with what some regard as Rathbun's "charisma". The result is that he must try to find and win over some other substantive "public", out of desperation, or else fail in his bid to out-maneuver the incumbent "COB". It isn't enough to wage campaigns to discredit and weaken David Miscavige. He, MR, must demonstrate that he brings more income stream to the table.

The remaining avenues are (a) starting his own service facility and attracting a large volume of new public, and/or (b) recovering the numbers of disaffected former customers accumulated and accessible through the Freezone lists, XSO, Ex-Scientologist Message Board and other internet opinion machines. The latter, unlikely as it is, is less formidable than the former. It is less work, less demanding, and far less time consuming to change opinions here with clever and well placed PR activities, as challenging as that is, than it is to build up a following among those uninitiated to Scientology.

This has been the focus of MR's recent activities. Working from the playbook he learned so well as a high CoS official, Rathbun evades engagement with unsupportive elements, so as to avoid unflattering, detrimental exposure. His PR training taught him to employ others, i.e., an "advance team", to "handle" opinion leaders to create a more favorable predisposition ahead of his personal appearance in an area. This is the mission assigned to Karen De La Carriere, Mike Laws (surprisingly*) and perhaps others not openly known to be agents or associates of Rathbun.

*("Surprisingly", because Laws operates with support from the highest levels behind the CoS, has operated with impunity within the CoS and maintained his connections with CoS execs and public even as he quietly backed and provided for Rathbun's "landing out of the CoS" in Texas from the very beginning, and had always lurked quietly in the background of Rathbun's self-promotional activities from the very beginning. So much for his "Marty befriended me when my dog died" shore story).

I have put myself as far out on a limb as I feel is warranted here, and I will not apologize for presenting no additional proof, names, evidence or documents. This report has been done, at my risk, as a courtesy to you all. Understand this: whether you support and/or contribute to David Miscavige's Church of Scientology, or to Mark Rathbun and his efforts, in the end you are supporting the same machine, with or without superficial cosmetic change. Those of you who have left behind the oppression of the CoS would be well advised to consider "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".

What an interesting post.

Thank you, thetanic, for providing it as very important food for thought.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
And I sincerely believe that OSA will DA anyone it thinks might be causing them a problem. Yep, I think they will.

On the other hand, to help their own operatives I sincerely believe OSA will DA them to help them prove they are anti-scn. Yep, I believe they will.

So, do I believe OSA will DA both friends and enemies to make their own program work? Yep.

Dealing with OSA ... and expecting the truth ? :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Jus sayin;
 
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Free Being Me

Crusader
And I sincerely believe that OSA will DA anyone it thinks might be causing them a problem. Yep, I think they will.

On the other hand, to help their own operatives I sincerely believe OSA will GA them to help them prove they are anti-scn. Yep, I believe they will.

So, do I believe OSA will DA both friends and enemies to make their own program work? Yep.

Dealing with OSA ... and expecting the truth ? :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Jus sayin;

Yeah, I believe you're right A.T. I don't know a lot about OSA other than what I read here. The CIA will create plausible events and documentation to give an agent an amount of believability when needed for 'proof'. Kind of a classic cloak and dagger approach. I go by the maxim there's no honor among thieves...or liars.
 
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dexter gelfand

Patron Meritorious
I can confirm honestly and absolutely that nothing I have communicated came from anyone in OSA, or anyone connected to anyone in OSA, Emma.
Between you and Kevin Mackey, I've been shown about someone in OSA with an apparent connection to a fellow ESMB'er who seems to have enough of an axe to grind with the whole ball of wax to have leaked out statements that aren't without plausibility.
Kevin has commented on my Facebook his interpretation that this means any statements against the Marty team can be dismissed as an "OSA operation". and clearly you also find it preferable to buy into that theory.
As long as we're going to speculate (and that's all these ideas are-speculation), I have to wonder why you find it so hard to believe that a CoS or OSA insider could be finding it harder and harder to go along with the company line, and feel a need to do the right thing. Isn't that how most of us came to be on ESMB? Wasn't that part of your own journey?
I can't help but notice that the 2 or 3 people who seem so adamant to refuse to even consider the possibility that there's something to the suggestion that Mike Laws may not be the altruistic warm fuzzy guy with such a sympathy-inviting life he's busy creating a self-image of are fellow Aussies.
Food for thought.

Love, Dex



Oh Look! I wonder who could have actually sent this email out originally?

Could it be the same tin foil hat wearer who posted this on Facebook?

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=520612&postcount=9799

I found out who the source of this DA about Mike Laws is today and it nearly blew my tiny mind. I promised not to say publicly but was given OK to say privately so if anyone is interested let me know. You won't friggin believe this.

Also Dexter (I'm sure you will read this) can you please confirm or deny that you have passed this DA onto Zinj about the same time you passed it onto me (around December 2010).
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
I can confirm honestly and absolutely that nothing I have communicated came from anyone in OSA, or anyone connected to anyone in OSA, Emma.
Between you and Kevin Mackey, I've been shown about someone in OSA with an apparent connection to a fellow ESMB'er who seems to have enough of an axe to grind with the whole ball of wax to have leaked out statements that aren't without plausibility.
Kevin has commented on my Facebook his interpretation that this means any statements against the Marty team can be dismissed as an "OSA operation". and clearly you also find it preferable to buy into that theory.
As long as we're going to speculate (and that's all these ideas are-speculation), I have to wonder why you find it so hard to believe that a CoS or OSA insider could be finding it harder and harder to go along with the company line, and feel a need to do the right thing. Isn't that how most of us came to be on ESMB? Wasn't that part of your own journey?
I can't help but notice that the 2 or 3 people who seem so adamant to refuse to even consider the possibility that there's something to the suggestion that Mike Laws may not be the altruistic warm fuzzy guy with such a sympathy-inviting life he's busy creating a self-image of are fellow Aussies.
Food for thought.

Love, Dex
Dex, my good man, I am too many years out of the loop to know who has connections to what - or OSA.

It just remains my sincere belief OSA will do, say, create sits or docs that will benefit what they want to accomplish.

And as has been chronicals of all over, it is not unusual for the same organization to run ops with cross purposes.

And as scio has prided itself on infiltrating enemies does it not follow the scio has been infiltrated by others, too ?

Maybe this leak is even coming from a deep plant - I have no idea.

Fleshed out verified facts are scarce.
 
Dex, my good man, I am too many years out of the loop to know who has connections to what - or OSA.

It just remains my sincere belief OSA will do, say, create sits or docs that will benefit what they want to accomplish.

And as has been chronicals of all over, it is not unusual for the same organization to run ops with cross purposes.

And as scio has prided itself on infiltrating enemies does it not follow the scio has been infiltrated by others, too ?

Maybe this leak is even coming from a deep plant - I have no idea.

Fleshed out verified facts are scarce.

THAT^^^^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcrEqIpi6sg

in the end, each of us has to do what we believe deep in our consciousness to be true.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
I can confirm honestly and absolutely that nothing I have communicated came from anyone in OSA, or anyone connected to anyone in OSA, Emma.
Between you and Kevin Mackey, I've been shown about someone in OSA with an apparent connection to a fellow ESMB'er who seems to have enough of an axe to grind with the whole ball of wax to have leaked out statements that aren't without plausibility.
Kevin has commented on my Facebook his interpretation that this means any statements against the Marty team can be dismissed as an "OSA operation". and clearly you also find it preferable to buy into that theory.
As long as we're going to speculate (and that's all these ideas are-speculation), I have to wonder why you find it so hard to believe that a CoS or OSA insider could be finding it harder and harder to go along with the company line, and feel a need to do the right thing. Isn't that how most of us came to be on ESMB? Wasn't that part of your own journey?
I can't help but notice that the 2 or 3 people who seem so adamant to refuse to even consider the possibility that there's something to the suggestion that Mike Laws may not be the altruistic warm fuzzy guy with such a sympathy-inviting life he's busy creating a self-image of are fellow Aussies.
Food for thought.

Love, Dex

Dex, I am one of the many who do not believe what was in that email about Mike Laws and Karen. I am not an Aussie, as you know, but I have come to like Mike Laws and find him credible. He's his own man and it took years to rise above the sufferings of the past.

That he wants to help SO members after they leave is commendable. So few help in the first place. I mean, what are you doing these days besides hanging up your shingle for the interested alone?

As well, I am really disappointed that you would presume that these Aussie's who have spoken up for him are ignorant and that being an Aussie has anything to do with it.

I also am shocked at what you posted on Facebook about ESMB. I think you have taken all this way too far. It borders on paranoia. Please consider that you have been fed disformation and rethink what you have been saying about Mike Laws and ESMB. We welcomed you here, just as we did Mike.
 

dexter gelfand

Patron Meritorious
Mary, what you think is what you think, what you feel is what you feel, and like any of us, you are rightfully free to express it. No problem.The only thing I will comment on is your suggestion that I have been "fed information". That assumption is absolutely incorrect. When I pass along facts, it means I know them to be true. My information doesn't come from dubious sources such as OSA or people with connections to OSA. That is just laughable. If someone from OSA passed information to me directly or through another, you actually believe I would pass it along as being factual? Exactly what time yesterday did you think I was born, Mary?

It does appear that someone in or connected to OSA sent out information that agrees with what much of what I have found out completely independently. That gives that OSA source a shade of credibility, but who can be sure what their motive was? Doesn't matter, in relation to this issue. That source has no relation to my sources.

Pardon me for having enough integrity to speak up when I see people with a terrible history of abusing others seeking to gain new influence. I stand by my words and actions. Bear in mind, Mike Laws IS here as an advance man for Marty Rathbun. To accept Mike is to accept Marty. There is a preponderance of evidence that there is little that David Miscavige has done, that Marty hasn't, and Marty glosses over this in pointing his finger at Miscavige.

Love, Dex
 
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Free Being Me

Crusader
I'm seeing OSA being mentioned. As well as unnamed sources. As well as reliability. But with no names, what's being said and done by whom for what purpose this looks like 20 questions. What I'm seeing is secrecy must be maintained but let's vaguely discuss it publicly on an open message board. This is becoming silly.
 

dexter gelfand

Patron Meritorious
I'm seeing OSA being mentioned. As well as unnamed sources. As well as reliability. But with no names, what's being said and done by whom for what purpose this looks like 20 questions. What I'm seeing is secrecy must be maintained but let's vaguely discuss it publicly on an open message board. This is becoming silly.
This is why I didn't initiate this conversation, Free. Others chose to copy and paste from my Facebook here on ESMB and comment on it, drawing me into the conversation.

Love, Dex
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
When I pass along facts, it means I know them to be true. My information doesn't come from dubious sources such as OSA or people with connections to OSA. That is just laughable. If someone from OSA passed information to me directly or through another, you actually believe I would pass it along as being factual? Exactly what time yesterday did you think I was born, Mary?

It does appear that someone in or connected to OSA sent out information that agrees with what much of what I have found out completely independently. That gives that OSA source a shade of credibility, but who can be sure what their motive was? Doesn't matter, in relation to this issue. That source has no relation to my sources.

Pardon me for having enough integrity to speak up when I see people with a terrible history of abusing others seeking to gain new influence. I stand by my words and actions. Bear in mind, Mike Laws IS here as an advance man for Marty Rathbun. To accept Mike is to accept Marty. There is a preponderance of evidence that there is little that David Miscavige has done, that Marty hasn't, and Marty glosses over this in pointing his finger at Miscavige.

Love, Dex

Dex, we ex's who have been out a long time, as well as Anons, seem to evaluate information much more objectively than the FZers and Indies.

At least half of those of us who are active protestors have been the subject of OSA black PR campaigns.

The rule is, "DOX or SFU" or "DOX or GFO".

"Dox" doesn't mean "I heard it from a good friend", because that friend may have received something that was also hearsay. It takes less than a few minutes to spread rumours. Often those spreading them have good intentions.
Other times, they are just people with an appetite for gossip.

If you don't have a copy of an actual email or post by Marty Rathbun or Mike Laws, if you don't have any actual "evidence" of any kind, then you are simply spreading hearsay. And spreading rumors against someone (Mike Laws) who has been known to be extremely helpful to us in Aus for assisting others speaking out is damaging to the ex movement.

We all know Mike Laws is friends with Marty Rathbun. I don't have an issue with this. He has publicly stated it, that's no secret. I have also known him to keep things confidential FROM Marty Rathbun when asked.

Beyond the simple truth that the two are friends, there is absolutely no dox or evidence that anything else said here is true, based on facts or dox, and anything other than destructive rumours.

Frankly, Dex, this is the second set of vicious rumours in the last two weeks that have come out of the FZ.

So please, respect the rule and don't take any further part in this gossip. The rule is "Dox or shut the fuck up". Provide the dox, right here, for us all to see. Because that email was only hearsay.
 

dexter gelfand

Patron Meritorious
"Dox" doesn't mean "I heard it from a good friend", because that friend may have received something that was also hearsay.

Good and well-intended points, Gotta, but not applicable. Surely you have one or two people in your life you can take at their word, so do I. What if one of those people told you that they had direct experience with someone themselves that was in some way notable? THAT is my situation. Maybe that's hearsay for you, but its fact for me. Sometimes being in possession of facts charges a person with a sense of responsibility, you know?

Love, Dex
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
This is why I didn't initiate this conversation, Free. Others chose to copy and paste from my Facebook here on ESMB and comment on it, drawing me into the conversation.

Love, Dex

Your open message on FB, mentioning Emma and ESMB has arrived here. That lack of finesse on your part is really your own undoing. So publicly placing a statement on FB that anyone can read is your idea of not initiating this conversation? Did it ever occur to you some one might copy and paste what you put out into the public domain? I don't follow the logic of your reasoning or that someone else is at fault.

I hold to my original statement. Vague inferences, mentions of OSA, cryptic sources, etc. are nothing but shadows. Who, what, where and why with docs. Other wise it's rumor mill. I admit I'm not 'in the know' about what's going on with this issue or need for secrecy but really, this is turning into some elementary school game.

*Could it be you wanted that FB post noticed Dex? And why would you want that?
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Good and well-intended points, Gotta, but not applicable. Surely you have one or two people in your life you can take at their word, so do I. What if one of those people told you that they had direct experience with someone themselves that was in some way notable? THAT is my situation. Maybe that's hearsay for you, but its fact for me. Sometimes being in possession of facts charges a person with a sense of responsibility, you know?

Love, Dex

Actually, Dex, when it comes to matters like who is OSA and who is not, even my best friends have to provide dox.

Because many of them have made mistakes in who they trust or have pieced together truth with rumors and come up with conclusions that were completely wrong. All with the best of intentions.

We have since learned from those mistakes.

If this person had an ACTUAL conversation with Mike Laws or Marty or overheard an actual conversation, then you should post it. The weird email rumour Thetanic posted is completely unverified.

Otherwise, you make yourself an unreliable source.

Here is an example: I mentioned my personal upset with an Anon, right? But it was known. It was not secret. Folks on both sides knew it had nothing to do with OSA, that we were both trustworthy but just didn't get along.

Then this OTHER jerkoff (who probably WAS an OSAbot) gets in the middle. Cuts and pieces statements I made that had nothing to do with the person, adds his own comments and rumours, then does the same to the other person, sending stuff to me by backchannels. Classic 3rd party shit. And sends these out as PMs and emails to those on our FB friends lists. At first, the Anon believed it. Then he eventually learned what happened, but it took a bit of untangling. He finally saw the actual emails that had nothing to do with him (where bits and pieces were cut and pasted to other emails to make it appear I wrote it) and the fabrications were pointed out. It took almost 3 months to sort out, but it got completely sorted out.

ALL who witnessed this are now very strict on the "Dox or SFU".

So post the conversation that you say was firsthand, please.
 
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Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Most coins have two sides.

I'll admit there are a couple of people that I'll take their word period and accept if they got had then I got had, too.

For most others there has to be proof, period.

But friends with Marty Rathub or Mike Rinder ? Nope. Not sorry, but that alone takes my hat out of the ring. There are people I like that are friends with M & M but I would NOT, absolutely NOT ever discuss anything of a sensitive nature with them - just would not. I can like somebody that I don't trust.

And I appreciate people vouch for their friends. Good. Other than two dear friends mentioned..... it'll take docs.

I have to side with those who have had OSA black ops run on them. I'd rather be wrong than, er, duped. Just me I guess.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Good and well-intended points, Gotta, but not applicable. Surely you have one or two people in your life you can take at their word, so do I. What if one of those people told you that they had direct experience with someone themselves that was in some way notable? THAT is my situation. Maybe that's hearsay for you, but its fact for me. Sometimes being in possession of facts charges a person with a sense of responsibility, you know?

Love, Dex

Hmmmm...I don't Mike Laws from Adam. I don't follow M&M or their blogs. Yet one or two people have enough whispering authority to create facts. And these facts and secretive innuendo are enough to post publicly with out any real statement. I'm not advocating anyone's side, just trying figure out these 'facts' that charge one with responsibility.

*Note-I was disappointed as well Dex with your open but secret FB post.
 
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