From the Horse's Mouth

[Kathy (ImOut)]

Thanks for all your help and answers on here. I wasn't quite certain what to expect, or if I should even post, but I'm glad that I did.

After reading for hours on end, I've noticed that most, if not all, of the people here cited the fact that they wanted to help others/make a difference as a main reason for joining Scientology. I do not doubt the truth of that whatsoever. But, that being the motivation, why choose Scientology? They don't have a great track record for helping others or making a difference. There are countless other organizations out there that do have a great track record. Why not join the Christian church, which has roughly 400,000 missionaries worldwide who have a well-established record of impact. Why not join the Red Cross? Peace Corps? There are literally thousands of groups tailored to match specific areas of concern and conviction. What about Scientology convinced you that you could do the most good with them?

I too was "young" when I got in - 25 - and a wreck. You can read my story as to why I got in.

But the point, after being a JW for 3 years as a kid, I couldn't stand mainstream religion and I was looking for something to help me. I didn't get in to "do the most good with them". I got in to do the most good for ME.

While I was first looking as Scn I was also looking at the Mormon religion since one of my very good friend's at the time was Mormon. But I didn't want the rules. And one of the first things I'd read about Scn was the ever famous quote: "What's true for you..." I wanted to believe in the parts that were real to me and not have to swallow all of it. But that later changed and you had to swallow all of it whether it was "true for you" or not.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

But, that being the motivation, why choose Scientology?

That presumes that all help is equivalent help. If one simply sought to "do good" in a socially approved way, your question would be a reasonable one. However, the particular value of the subject of scientology lies in the auditing tech and how it can help individuals resolve mental considerations they have which may be experienced as self-limiting.

The problem lies in the organizational cult which grew up around Hubbard and which seeks to control the membership by controlling access to the subject of scientology. People join the Co$ at of a desire to promote the benefits of scientology auditing. The end result is that the abusive practices of the church too often cause unnecessary hardships and ultimately tends to undermine the efforts to help others.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Alanzo]

...

The problem lies in the organizational cult which grew up around Hubbard and which seeks to control the membership by controlling access to the subject of scientology. ...


Mark A. Baker

The organizational cult "which grew up around" Hubbard?

How about the organizational cult that Hubbard intentionally created and continually worked very hard to keep there?

Cults don't "just grow up around" someone.

They put them there and enforce them and even think up new ways of coercion and manipulation to keep people enslaved in them.

"Grew up around Hubbard".

Good one, Mark!

 

[Div6]

Scientology as an applied religious philosophy appeared to have answers and a "workable" technology. Christianity had too much "baggage", as did most other "mainstream" religions. Red Cross, etc, appeared more interested in perpetuating the beauracracy than really helping others. In scn, if you changed yourself, you changed the world, so it seemed like "the greatest good".

And to some degree it was true. To a point. But when the group eclipses personal freedoms, watch out.

 

[fiveyearzen]

Okay, I'm covering several things at once here in machine gun fashion... not really and order to it.

It's good to see that you all have a sense of humor about your experiences. It also makes posts more fun to read. I understand your concerns about the "freezoners," and I wouldn't like it either if I were you. I don't particularly like it being me. Thanks for the warnings, although I have reached a place in my life (finally!) where I have a profound peace about my spiritual life, my relationship with God, and my religion, so I doubt anybody will be converting me soon.

It seems that many of the practices within scientology (I mean those which benefit the individual) that people like are just slight variations on common psychology. I'm sure that has something to do with why LRH forbade his followers any involvement with the psychological community. With regard to auditing, there is an ongoing debate in psychology about whether repressed memories should be brought to the surface or not. One side says that they should, in an effort to release them. I tend to ally myself with the other side, which says that repressed memories are repressed for a good reason. The mind will deal with them when it is capable and ready.

I've tried to refrain from promoting my own opinions and beliefs. I'm only 34, and I think many people here probably have much more wisdom and experience than I. Still, I'd like to reply to a common thread in the posts. No religion, organization, etc. is going to fix the world. It will never work for one simple reason: some people just don't want to be helped. Many people (and I used to be one of them) enjoy being miserable. But I don't think that means we can't change the world immediately around us. I think we do that every day, whether we know it or not, whether we want to or not. Maybe it's the way we respond to the rude sales clerk. Maybe it's holding a door open for somebody. Maybe it's something much bigger and more obvious. We are presented hundreds of opportunites every day to change the world. It won't end starvation or war or racism, but it will make a difference in one other person's life, which is profound. I grew up in a Baptist church being very unfulfilled. It wasn't until I distanced myself, then came back and approached God on my own terms (not how all my Sunday school teachers said I should) that I really began to grow. I had previously thought that Christianity could save the world. Now I see that it can't. In fact, that's a guaruntee of my faith: the world is fallen, and it will be until the end of time. My battle is to inject as much love as I possibly can into the equation. There is no greater calling, IMHO, than to love - from our friends and family to our worst enemies. Any religion or life teaching without love as its foundation is empty. THAT is where I think Scientology fails miserably, and although I hear it expressed in different ways, that seems to be the unanimous reason that people left.

Now you can all meet at my place to hold hands around the campfire and sing, "Cumbaya."

 

[Free to shine]

My battle is to inject as much love as I possibly can into the equation. There is no greater calling, IMHO, than to love - from our friends and family to our worst enemies. Any religion or life teaching without love as its foundation is empty. THAT is where I think Scientology fails miserably, and although I hear it expressed in different ways, that seems to be the unanimous reason that people left.

Now you can all meet at my place to hold hands around the campfire and sing, "Cumbaya."

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[Zander]

I would first like to say that I am NOT an ex-scientologist. I have no affiliation with the group, past or present (or future, for that matter). I would second like to ask that you excuse me for any intrusion onto your board and thank you for allowing me a small voice here.

Third, I would like to use that voice to ask one simple question (with introduction). I am a high school English teacher. I began researching Scientology when my students posed some questions that I could not answer in any informed manner. My preliminary research led me to much deeper research, because I frankly could not believe what I was reading. After much probing, I have formed a tentative conclusion that the Chruch of Scientology is, in fact, criminal and dangerously close to terrorist (if it hasn't already crossed that line). However, being an English teacher, I am all too aware of the issue with source credibility, and I would like to know what those who have interacted with the "church" think. Please try to remain objective. My simple question is this: Do you believe that the Church of Scientology is criminal?

I would like to offer a slightly contrary view to this question, althought that doesn't mean I disagree with any of the specifics described by others.

I would not describe the cofs as 'criminal' or 'terrorist' as a summary word when trying to make an accurate analysis, but that doesn't mean they have not commited criminal acts because they have.

You said that your conclusion is that they are "criminal and dangerously close to terrorist (if it hasn't already crossed that line).".

In that one sentence you are associating the cofs with the mafia and with Al Quaeda, and however much most of us here have had very bad experiences with them I don't think that comparison is helpful at all. Have they been involved in drug-running? Have they planted bombs in government buildings? Do they have suicide bombers? No.

It also smacks of exactly the same kind of propaganda that the cofs uses in describing the Anonymous demonstrators as criminals and terrorists. I believe that if we were to use the same propaganda methods in countering the cofs we would be weakening our position in opposing them.

Also, I personally would like to get away from that kind of emotive trigger word type thinking and try to see things exactly how they are, which is not easy at all.

But if you are looking for a single word summary of the cofs, I would say that the word cult is a much better description for them. And if criminal acts are identified, described and prosecuted all well and good, but let's see the whole picture.

But welcome fiveyearzen, and thanks for posing the question. It makes us all think about the issues

Zander

 

[Feral]

Good post Zander,

How about "zealous cult", or a 'fanatatical cult"

 

[Zander]

Good post Zander,

How about "zealous cult", or a 'fanatatical cult"

Thanks, yes sounds good to me!

'fanatatical' I like it (sorry, I guess you didn't mean that typo)

"They are a goddammed fanatical cult!"

Yeah, it fits for me (I just had to add the 'goddammed' for effect).

Zander

 

[Pixie]

I would like to offer a slightly contrary view to this question, althought that doesn't mean I disagree with any of the specifics described by others.

I would not describe the cofs as 'criminal' or 'terrorist' as a summary word when trying to make an accurate analysis, but that doesn't mean they have not commited criminal acts because they have.

You said that your conclusion is that they are "criminal and dangerously close to terrorist (if it hasn't already crossed that line).".

In that one sentence you are associating the cofs with the mafia and with Al Quaeda, and however much most of us here have had very bad experiences with them I don't think that comparison is helpful at all. Have they been involved in drug-running? Have they planted bombs in government buildings? Do they have suicide bombers? No.

It also smacks of exactly the same kind of propaganda that the cofs uses in describing the Anonymous demonstrators as criminals and terrorists. I believe that if we were to use the same propaganda methods in countering the cofs we would be weakening our position in opposing them.

Also, I personally would like to get away from that kind of emotive trigger word type thinking and try to see things exactly how they are, which is not easy at all.

But if you are looking for a single word summary of the cofs, I would say that the word cult is a much better description for them. And if criminal acts are identified, described and prosecuted all well and good, but let's see the whole picture.

But welcome fiveyearzen, and thanks for posing the question. It makes us all think about the issues

Zander

If you do not believe that splitting up families, enforcing abortions, making people get married, making people get divorced, toturing people on the RPF, locking people up with no food and little water for weeks on end, lying to people, pretending to be a 'church' when you're a cult just to avoid taxes, beating people up, not making sure a sick person get's to hospital so that they result in deat i.e. Lisa McPhearson, taking people's medication away and giving them 'vits' causing them to become more ill, causing people's suicides, kicking people out onto the street and leaving them homeless with no money and no passports, contacting your employer and telling them lies resulting in getting sacked, locking people in a room and screaming 'criminal' every five minutes for days on end.. I could go on Zander.. so if this is not 'criminal', then I do not know what is.

 

[Pixie]

To Zander

Zaner, perhaps this video may help you to think about what is criminal and what is not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn7H_upel20

 

[Zander]

If you do not believe that splitting up families, enforcing abortions, making people get married, making people get divorced, toturing people on the RPF, locking people up with no food and little water for weeks on end, lying to people, pretending to be a 'church' when you're a cult just to avoid taxes, beating people up, not making sure a sick person get's to hospital so that they result in deat i.e. Lisa McPhearson, taking people's medication away and giving them 'vits' causing them to become more ill, causing people's suicides, kicking people out onto the street and leaving them homeless with no money and no passports, contacting your employer and telling them lies resulting in getting sacked, locking people in a room and screaming 'criminal' every five minutes for days on end.. I could go on Zander.. so if this is not 'criminal', then I do not know what is.

Yes I believe all those things and I believe those acts are criminal (I did not say they weren't guilty of those).

All specifics are welcome to the discussion.

In an informal discussion I may even call them criminal as well.

I answered in that way because the OP is a teacher looking for analysis of the 'cofs' and I don't think that would be the correct single-word summary, there is a lot more to it.

Like it or not, there is also a lot there that is not criminal, otherwise we would never have stayed.

Yes, expose the criminal acts and uncover the abuses, I have no objection. Include all specifics and make the argument well. But I wouldn't call them a 'criminal organisation' because that to me sounds like the mafia and it would be too easy for them to shoot that argument down.

For me it would be more accurate to say that they are an 'abusive' organisation with criminal elements.

Perhaps we are only really arguing terminology here, I don't dispute any facts.

I have seen that video before, yes shocking.

Zander

 

[Pixie]

Yes I believe all those things and I believe those acts are criminal (I did not say they weren't guilty of those).

All specifics are welcome to the discussion.

In an informal discussion I may even call them criminal as well.

I answered in that way because the OP is a teacher looking for analysis of the 'cofs' and I don't think that would be the correct single-word summary, there is a lot more to it.

Like it or not, there is also a lot there that is not criminal, otherwise we would never have stayed.

Yes, expose the criminal acts and uncover the abuses, I have no objection. Include all specifics and make the argument well. But I wouldn't call them a 'criminal organisation' because that to me sounds like the mafia and it would be too easy for them to shoot that argument down.

For me it would be more accurate to say that they are an 'abusive' organisation with criminal elements.

Perhaps we are only really arguing terminology here, I don't dispute any facts.

I have seen that video before, yes shocking.

Zander

That's fine Zander and you are welcome to word it in whichever way you want, however, when lron decided to create his hypnotic and mind bending cult, he did it to enslave men, make loads of money and avoid paying taxes. We can of course agree to disagree here, but I personally have no doubt whatsoever that the 'church' of $cientology is a 'criminal organtization'.

 

[Zander]

That's fine Zander and you are welcome to word it in whichever way you want, however, when lron decided to create his hypnotic and mind bending cult, he did it to enslave men, make loads of money and avoid paying taxes. We can of course agree to disagree here, but I personally have no doubt whatsoever that the 'church' of $cientology is a 'criminal organtization'.

I have no problem with your viewpoint whatsoever Pixie or any of the facts you have pointed out.

We would only differ when on the campaign trail against the cofs, where I feel that "criminal" or "terrorist" (especially) as summary descriptions would not be useful weapons in the argument. But informally, no problem.....

But as I have said, that does not deny any criminal and/or abusive acts they have performed which should all be employed to expose them.

That's just my view on the matter....

Zander

 

[WrongPlaceRightTime]

If fiveyearzen is still reading this thread I want to tell you that there are elements within Scientology that can make a person go crazy. A person can become so introverted on Ethics handlings that they will actually become in agreement with the insinuations of out-ethicness and spiral into a deep depression that can sometimes result in suicide as it did with my own father back in 2001. Scientology is criminal and it justifies it's criminality under the guise of "saving mankind". My dad was a man, part of man kind too, but he was not saved- he was kicked to the curb because NO, Scientology CANNOT help you with that.

 

[Reasonable Lady]

There is another criminal aspect to the church, its labor practices. The church gets around this by being a church and currently (so I've read) calling its staff "volunters". There are two shifts, "Day" (Mon-Fri, roughly 8AM to 6PM) and "Foundation" (Mon- Fri, roughly 6PM to 11PM and all day Sat and Sun). A staff member will work one or both shifts. Their pay will be based on a certain percentage of that week's income. It is way below min. wage, usually way below $100. And aside from the bad pay, it is not unheard of for all staff to be confined to the org all night when stats are down and be writing letters to public or whatever to get the stats back up, it is basically punishment. I am sure that all of the above violates any and all local and federal labor laws.
Someone who has experienced church "housing" could describe that, I'm sure that that violates housing codes.

RL

 

[sallydannce]

...

But if you are looking for a single word summary of the cofs, I would say that the word cult is a much better description for them. And if criminal acts are identified, described and prosecuted all well and good, but let's see the whole picture.

But welcome fiveyearzen, and thanks for posing the question. It makes us all think about the issues

Zander

One word I would add is "destructive" - scientology is a destructive cult. As part of that destructive behaviour, criminal acts are committed, IMO inadvertently.

Why do I say "inadvertently"? Aren't these criminal acts done with intent? IMO, no. That is far too a black & white view of this group.

I know a bit about the Office of Special Affairs (OSA). After the 1980's guardian office (GO) criminal activities (where they were caught), there was an ethos to not do anything illegal. Before anyone guns me down here, this is how it was. Illegal situations were to be avoided. Illegal meaning the laws of the land. Everything was carefully worked out in accordance with the laws of the land. Legal strategies were always considered before actions were taken. The golden rule was "don't do anything illegal" with a sub-heading of "have a clever defense at the ready if you are accused of crimes", followed by tiny sub-text - "don't get caught".

The thinking behind the "don't do anything illegal" is that criminal activity weakens the group. Makes it vulnerable. EVERYTHING is geared towards preservation of the group. That point is an ABSOLUTE. Non-negotiable.

The last thing that scientology wants to be accused of & found guilty of is criminal activity. This would weaken the group significantly - as happened when the GO puppets got caught. At the end of the day this whole thing is about the survival of the group. Scientology must survive, according to Hubbard's doctrine. The future according to Hubbard was that Scientology is the only hope mankind has.

Scientology is fighting for the right to survive, the right to save the universe. They really believe that stuff. All their legal hits on others are to remove anything that may weaken this imperative idea that they hold the only tech to save the world. The religious cloaking is also for this purpose. The megalomaniac world of Hubbard's doctrine, is to protect the tech no matter what.

The insane mistakes that are made, many of which could be deemed crimes (if able to be proven), are merely a challenge to scientology. Individual members/staff screwing up weaken the potential survival of this "vital" tech to save the universe. Whacko to any outsider, I know, but this is how it works. So if any individual members do get involved in criminal activity which implicates the group, the group will close ranks and shut down to prevent any attempts at allowing "wog" (society) justice to be applied. If scientology believes they can protect the group, they will. Otherwise they will throw the member out to the wolves.

The thing about groups like this is that proving things, the criminal stuff that is done in the heat of this zealous pursuit, is tricky. Damn tricky.

If you have access to and can search the major legal databases of the world you will find no criminal legal cases against scientology. You will find many many civil legal cases (people suing) but no criminal cases, excepting the 1980's GO one previously mentioned. I may be wrong here and would be very interested in seeing any criminal cases against scientololgy. I just don't know of any.

The heavy thought reform (mind control) techniques that Hubbard so subtly & so cleverly incorporated in his doctrines means you have a group of people who believe they must protect his work at any cost. This includes not committing acts which would weaken their right to protect the tech - to survive. A very twisted way of seeing things.

This is what makes the group destructive, zealous & fanatical. That intense in-built drive to protect the "only tech" that can save the world. Things get quite muddy in the middle of that type of thinking.

Sorry this is a bit long but feel I needed to try to fully elucidate these concepts. Not sure I have succeeded but going to hit "submit reply" anyway.

 

[fiveyearzen]

In that one sentence you are associating the cofs with the mafia and with Al Quaeda, and however much most of us here have had very bad experiences with them I don't think that comparison is helpful at all. Have they been involved in drug-running? Have they planted bombs in government buildings? Do they have suicide bombers? No.

It also smacks of exactly the same kind of propaganda that the cofs uses in describing the Anonymous demonstrators as criminals and terrorists. I believe that if we were to use the same propaganda methods in countering the cofs we would be weakening our position in opposing them.

I absolutely would put them in the same category as the mafia and Al Quaeda. If Scientology were run by Afghans, then they'd all be sitting in Guantanamo Bay right now. I'd say that the mafia is a much better comparison. In that regard, I'd say the mafia is a little better, because they don't engage in the wholesale targeting of the very people who support them. l have no doubt that the FBI is currently building a case against the cos. I have no proof of that, but if the FBI isn't, then they need an overhaul.

Pixie is right, and all the things she listed are just the tip of the iceberg. Sure, they haven't bombed anybody... yet, but they have infiltrated hundreds of government offices and stolen documents, for ONE example. If that isn't terrorist, I don't know what is. You can say all that stuff is in the past, but from what I hear here, it is still very much a part of the organization. If it were isolated incidents carried out without the knowledge of superiors, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly. However, the internet is foaming with documents and communications from the leadership specifically ordering these things to be carried out. Because of that, I think the cos easily falls under RICO.

I couldn't have said that with any authority before coming here. Thanks again to everybody for their responses and links. I fully understand the need for some to still defend Scientology. I can imagine what it must feel like upon realizing what the cos has done. Nobody enjoys feeling like a duped fool, and that's probably the first reaction, which in turn leads to some sort of justification. I don't believe anybody in the cos is a fool. Taken advantage of, yes, but one should never feel guilt or embarassment for trusting another person. The violator is who should feel those things. People join the cos out of a desire to help, better themselves, be a part of something greater than themselves, etc. The cos plays right into that, and the one thing they have made a science of is lying. When they are discovered, they fall back on the same tactics that rapists use: make the victim feel as if they were the ones who are somehow responsible.

 

[Pixie]

If fiveyearzen is still reading this thread I want to tell you that there are elements within Scientology that can make a person go crazy. A person can become so introverted on Ethics handlings that they will actually become in agreement with the insinuations of out-ethicness and spiral into a deep depression that can sometimes result in suicide as it did with my own father back in 2001. Scientology is criminal and it justifies it's criminality under the guise of "saving mankind". My dad was a man, part of man kind too, but he was not saved- he was kicked to the curb because NO, Scientology CANNOT help you with that.

Absolutely! This is the way it was set up, hubbard wanted 'slaves' and nothing less, $cientology is a criminal organization and there is by far enough hard evidence to state this as fact, and anyone who thinks hubbard set it up to 'help' people is deluded, Operation Snow White was the tip of an immense iceberg, a criminal organization without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Alanzo]

Absolutely! This is the way it was set up, hubbard wanted 'slaves' and nothing less, $cientology is a criminal organization and there is by far enough hard evidence to state this as fact, and anyone who thinks hubbard set it up to 'help' people is deluded, Operation Snow White was the tip of an immense iceberg, a criminal organization without a shadow of a doubt.

3 more, Pixie!

I may seem like an old softie now.

But ask Fluffy and Vinaire: Inside me, is a critic of OAK!

I NEED you to achieve your status on the ESMB Bridge to Total Status!!