From the Knowledgism Field

ExDoE

New Member
Observing their new captain unexpectedly and inexplicably altering the course of their vessel onto a line leading directly into a minefield, an experienced ship’s crew immediately voice their concern. Mistakenly perceiving their objections as insurrection, the captain responds by summarily declaring all offenders mutineers, isolating them and sentencing them to be cast-aways.
Initiating “damage-control”, the captain issues a proclamation effectively condemning the mutineers as vile, dishonest, lazy, unproductive and dangerous, of having been long-time saboteurs and enemy agents intent on undermining and destroying the vessel and all it stands for.
Meanwhile, loudspeakers are activated all over the ship and messages transmitted to those on shore, offering assurances that all is well, the enemy source has been dealt with, the ship is secure, etc.
Much ado is made of how loud and obnoxious, how juvenile and annoying those offenders have been. How much better things will be when all that nonsense is over with.
Meanwhile, the ship holds onto its new course……


What we really need is something like ISMOLOGY!
 
The Caine Mutiny / the KN Mutiny

Observing their new captain unexpectedly and inexplicably altering the course of their vessel onto a line leading directly into a minefield, an experienced ship’s crew immediately voice their concern. Mistakenly perceiving their objections as insurrection, the captain responds by summarily declaring all offenders mutineers, isolating them and sentencing them to be cast-aways.
Initiating “damage-control”, the captain issues a proclamation effectively condemning the mutineers as vile, dishonest, lazy, unproductive and dangerous, of having been long-time saboteurs and enemy agents intent on undermining and destroying the vessel and all it stands for.
Meanwhile, loudspeakers are activated all over the ship and messages transmitted to those on shore, offering assurances that all is well, the enemy source has been dealt with, the ship is secure, etc.
Much ado is made of how loud and obnoxious, how juvenile and annoying those offenders have been. How much better things will be when all that nonsense is over with.
Meanwhile, the ship holds onto its new course……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qzz7K_E1w
 

RogerB

Crusader
A Analysis of This Thread

I post the following because I do not want falsehoods and agenda driven presentations of "viewpoints" to stand improperly evaluated and uncorrected.

Well, I’m back from my trip to Philadelphia . . . these things tend to get bigger, longer than first envisioned :D. Though it’s been a good week: I am a degree richer. :D

Had a chance to re-read this thread since getting back. Been very interesting to do a quick Data Eval on it.

For any of you guys who might be interested and who know the Data Eval Tech, this thread is a classic example of out-points like omitted data, incorrect or omitted correct sequence, opinion introduced as fact, alteration of facts, omitted facts, omitted time, altered importances, etc., etc., . . . and the one that inflamed this thread an added inapplicable.

The opening post and Thetanic’s posting of it is legit. He says he got it in a vacuum, didn’t know if it was real, what the hell it was all about, and sent to him by a name he doesn’t know. So OK, he posts it as an item of interest.

That was legit. Knowledgism is an item of interest and discussion on this board.

Then the opinions, inapplicables, omissions of data by those who have it; and misdirections start. You can see it if you read the thread from a data evaluation perspective.

I note also, that suddenly a newbie had joined the fray.

Thetanic made the opening post on 14th June 2010, 11:16 PM (NYC time). Unknownuser1 joined ESMB as a Newbie and made his/her first post on 15th June 2010, 03:34 AM . . . . that’s a mere 4 hours 18 minutes after Thetanic’s opening post!!

That’s a little extraordinary, don’t you think? . . . particularly since unknownuser1 has such spot on “insider” info on the Prosperity List, and asserts he/she knows the beginning of and why of “the upset.” The first post by unknownuser1 is a simple statement that the opening post is legit, and was posted on the Prosperity List.

Then CarmelO introduces the first full-blown added inapplicable and misdirector that incites a whole other issue of conflict and argument. Note post #10 on 15th June 2010, 04:31 AM. He posts:

thanks for verifying the authenticity.

what a sad ending.

i did the codes in 95 in Dallas, before the ranch.

Lola was there then.

firing her and calling her Red Zone is gnarly.

So, where is Lola mentioned in the opening post? Where is it mentioned in that post anything about anyone being fired or dismissed from staff? The opening post only refers to misuse of tech, false claims regarding the tech and unnamed persons acting and having acted to sabotage the tech and its delivery. So why was this “item” (with the evaluated opinion of it) of Lola being dismissed introduced? Certainly at the stage it was introduced on the thread it was an added inapplicable. What it does do is introduce a one-sided attack on the management at the ranch.

You’ll notice how the focus of this thread changed at this point . . . it went from “What are the facts relative to the Kn email cited in the opening post” to “poor Lola, why was she fired, how mean of them that done it to her (and, added later, Al)!”

I was the next poster in sequence with post #11 at 15th June 2010, 09:38 AM just before I was about to take of out of town. I didn’t have the time to do a full handle on the data, so posted off the top of my head the facts I have that relate to the opening post and to CarmelO’s mention of Lola’s dismissal. I state that the info I have re Lola is as said to me, but I do not know the truth of that.

But the key point I made is that what is missing on this thread is the knowledge of and contents of the Post to the Prosperity List to which the post (from David and Ceil) cited in the opener of this thread is a response to. It is that missing post that caused David and Ceil of the ranch management to post as they did. I will not add my opinion of the post here . . . I’ve already mentioned it was a goof.

What I am still surprised by is that those in possession of that original, inciting post have not made that omitted data available to you folks, along with other omitted data/posts that would help resolve the mystery and conflict.

Some have wisely referred to the tech point that for a problem or conflict to exist or persist there must be an unknown. Hellooooo . . . so why has this info not been posted by those who have it yet are saying so much on this thread.

I do not condone the particular use of some tech points by David and Ceil in their post. It is not a post I would have put out. Too many upsetting generalities is one thing that is specifically off about it. But their post was in response to and intended to handle something, and unless you folks know what that was, you are flying blind in trying to opine on the matter.

And there is also other data/missing facts concerning points introduced on this thread.

Here are three missing emails that were posted on the Prosperity List.

To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat Jun 12th, 2010 2:24 AM EDT
Subject: [prosperity] Re: Move
Dear Prosperous Folks;

The posts are showing lots of good things happening; it’s so great to read about.

I’m just sending a little notice that the time has arrived for me to move on to the next phase of my journey, clearing the way for the new vision for the ranch, so I may not be here to greet you on your next visit. Until I get established in my new location, I will be out of communication, but will be thinking of you. I take with me all the precious moments we shared in Presence and connection, those are jewels I will always treasure.

Until next time, with great love & gratitude,
Lola

Nothing provocative in that . . . . Nothing about being fired; no bitching or moaning Good folks would take Lola at her word, and say; “I wish thee well my Sweet.”

So where is this “Lola got fired” stuff coming from? Who is stirring it up by forwarding it — even if true? And even if true, why the one-sided Lola is a victim, hardly done by traffic? Why is no “why” presented, other than rumor and innuendo to make the executives who allegedly fired her look bad?

I hold no agenda in all of this . . . I am simply looking at the data trail and “information” cum comments as presented . . . . and it stinks!

The next post in time sequence on the Prosperity List of importance pertaining to the subject at hand is that from The Kypers. This is the Post on the Prosperity List (owned and run by Alan’s created ACLC operation that served all the ranch clients), that created the situation to which Ceil and David responded so unfortunately.

From: Marcus and Diane Kuypers
Subject: [prosperity] Acknowledgments
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 4:00 PM

We want to share this with all of you because we have always considered the members of this list past and present to be a very intregal part of who we were, are and will be. This acknowledgement goes out with love to all of you. To name just a few Lola Wolery, Helen Geltman, Claire and Charlie Dunn, Colin Mills, Eric Wolery, Beverly Miles and all the others who put everything into getting this tech out and to helping others, we thank you.

It is our hope that you all continue to carry on this work. We would really like to stay connected to all of you so please keep in touch. You are all welcome in our home at any time.

Here's an update of what we've been doing with the tech:

Dear Friends (and I use this determinedly as I think you can appreciate this....),

I have been fortunate enough to have recently been processing with Eric Wolery and I think it is time to really acknowledge him as one of the great processors of our time! We should all be thankful to have someone who is carrying on much of the work that many others had started: Freud, Jung, Hubbard, and most recently, with Alan C. Walter. I think all of us who have participated in the search for ourselves and greater human potential owe many luminaries, researchers and each and every one of us a great debt to be at the forefront of trying to upgrade ourselves and each other.

For the past year or so, Eric and I have been working on the Paradigm Games Matrix technology. Some of you may know that this area is what Alan Walter had started to promise/promote the past several years, but had not quite released broadly. However, some of you may not be aware that Eric had been working on this tech with Alan (and was his processor for many years) when it was developed back in the early to mid 90's. But, there were many other areas that came to view and had to be addressed with other processing techniques, Codes, Cults, Ascensions, etc. that occupied much of their efforts.

When Eric left ACLC a few years ago he took his work with him and has continued to develop and refine it. Now he has a very powerful and useful set of processes that are able to cut to the core of why we do the things we do. It is wonderful to see that Eric has been able to remove himself from the old Scientology approach and make it so much more practical and realistic. This isn't some "secret technology for the initiated" anymore. I think his approach is simple, direct and useful. This is part of the evolution of processing as we learn what works, expand it, refine it and learn how to do it better, faster, and simpler.

I have found that the Paradigm Games Matrix technology is not necessarily a "one process short-cut" but is part of a set of tools that can be used to handle expeditiously whatever comes to view. Eric has managed to greatly streamline and simplify these tools to a few main ones that seem to handle most of the stuff. I think Eric has been able to carry forward, build and expand upon the processes that he and Alan had developed. These are built around the basic premise that "thoughts are things" and can be readily addressed as such. Science is continuing to reveal that our universe around us is really just holographic projections and much of those built up into "Paradigm Game Matrices." Eric has really simplified how to handle these, none of which would be possible without his being the "processor's processor!"

In my experience, the Paradigm Games Matrix tech really undercuts most of the case areas that many of us have spent years chipping away at. It does help greatly to have had some training and knowledge about the anatomy of case areas and processing. If you are experienced with processing, you may even be able to solo process much of these game matrices, (with some occasional help). We all have many of these Matrices and they are what creates our environment, behaviors, work, companions, friends, and really everything around us, indeed, this universe! They are the mold that makes us what we are. It is the "Why" behind unwanted case conditions.

These PGM's can be huge masses and forces and may take some work and diligence to dismantle them. It is vital to get all the pieces or they will likely be recreated. It sure gets easier the more one works on it though. All the other processing I've done for these past 30 years has been "clearing out the basement" for this. The beauty of this processing is when you really can holographically duplicate the whole matrix it becomes so ridiculously simple, just a “but of course…!” Some of the Games Matrices I've handled have been: joining the physical universe, being (created as) a doctor and into the medical-industrial complex, the "cancer game", the "body game", the "family game".

Some of these are really "cults" but as far as I'm concerned these games matrices are the reason behind unwanted habits and behaviors. They are the reason behind unwanted body conditions and illnesses, even what leads to aberrant body structure and dysfunction. In my medical opinion, true health cannot be achieved without running out our Paradigm Games Matrices. Without a doubt, this has been the most case gain per processing hour I've ever done. The beauty of it is that as I have started to dismantle these matrices I start to see how they have manifested in my environment and pieces of it come to view so I can inspect it and remove it. Life becomes an on-going process!

If we want to change our world and environment then many more of us need to run out their Paradigm Games Matrices and ultimately break up these group agreements so we can move on to bigger and better games, just for fun! It doesn't take a vast number as we free up more and more Life Force and starts to snowball...!

Marcus and Diane Kuypers

I will not bother picking this apart, I don’t have the time for this type of traffic. You can read it as you wish. But I’ll tell you there is the usual smoozing bullshit and falsehood in it that you’d see in a communication that is agenda driven rather than intended to communicate simple truth.

Now, for the record, CarmelO also introduces (post #30) the item that “Al” got fired, along with other opinions and speculation. So, where is that relevant to and on the issues covered in the opening post of this thread?

Here is Al’s response to the Kyper’s post on the Prosperity List . . . . note Al’s post was a day before David and Ceil’s response to the Kyper’s post.

From: Al Leggett <[email protected]****>
Subject: RE: [prosperity] Acknowledgments
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 5:17 PM

All I can say is, HERESY!! HERESY!!!

n., pl., -sies.
1.
a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
2.
a. A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
b. Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.
[Middle English heresie, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, a choosing, faction, from haireisthai, to choose, middle voice of hairein, to take.]

: )

Al

Note we are dealing with Prosperity List posts above . . . no verbal rumor, no hidden third party. It has been stated on this thread that the “upset to the” Kn lines/Prosperity List folks “began before the Kyper’s post,” yet no specific "what" or "who’s" have been stated, but only “hidden data” used. And there is nothing of an upset vein posted on the list prior to the Kyper’s post.

Reviewing the date sequence of the posts from the particular individuals cited in this “dispute,” we see the following:

1. Jun 12th, 2010 2:24 AM EDT Lola posts she is leaving the ranch, and wishes all well.
2. June 12, 2010, 4:00 PM (EDT) The Kypers make their post across the Knowledgism lines
3. June 12, 2010, 5:17 PM (EDT) Al Leggett Posts “Heresy!”
4. June 13, 2010, 4:51 PM (EDT) David and Ceil post their response, as cited in the opener on this thread.
Now, if you are interested, re-read this thread and do an evaluation/analysis as to who is doing/saying what that is adding fuel to the fire, stirring the pot while at the same time not providing the known data that would have presented a complete picture versus only pushing the agenda of a one-sided view. And also note which “side” these folks are pushing and which side they are putting down.

And in particular note the agenda being pushed by the suddenly appearing newbies.

I actually have no axe to grind in this. I only care about the truth being known. I don’t like lies and distortions being pushed.

Further, for the record, I was put off the Prosperity List by Alan in December 2005, and have not been to the ranch since Sept. 2005. (The P. List posts above were forwarded to me by clients and friends.)

I am also not in the business of trying to accumulate clients as some accused me of when I first came on this board. I am wealthy enough to not have to bother with that. Last week I made $30K for the week . . . I simply do not need to sit down for dollars an hour listening to the same old boring stuff. I only work with a few friends who I truly like and who are smart enough to benefit from what I can do to help them. As many on this board know, I spend endless time on PM and email traffic helping folks for free . . . this because they have demonstrated they are worth it and that they have truly reached to know. There is no one on ESMB that I’ve ever asked a penny of. What I have done is recommend they go to the place I have found to have the best tech available . . . the Knowledgism Ranch. And I have never acted to poach any of the Ranch’s clients as the Kyper’s email on the Prosperity List, in my view, attempted to do.

But trying to steal the Ranch’s clients is not the issue I am on about . . . it is the corruption of a workable tech and the misrepresentation of certain elements as conveyed in that email.

For my part, all I’ve discovered I have made known and available to Alan while he was alive. My stance has been to add to the workability and effectiveness of the ongoing operation . . . I think it is destructive to undermine or tear down an establishment that is doing well and doing good work . . . . why not add to and empower it?? That’s what I did . . . . why not co-ordinate our power and make more effective our reach and influence toward the helping of the society we say we wish to help and serve?

That is also why I communicate all I can of my knowledge that I think will help folks here and elsewhere. That is why I spent my $$$’s to go and present at the FZ Conference in Pasadena last October.

The Kyper’s email and Eric Wolery’s “proposition” does not do that.

And that is the tragedy of what has happened here. And David and Ceil responded erroneously . . . . and that too is a tragedy.

Now I’ve had enough of this . . . I have better things to do.

RogerB
 

RogerB

Crusader
BTW, I'm female. :)

Well, T. I shall remember and honor that from here on. It's funny how an image can be created by an avatar picture . . . . it just seemed so masculine!

PS: I got the message that you had no other traffic from the P. List when you opened this thread:yes: And I well understand you going into a WTF on the item you received. Hence the validity of posting it here as you did.

Rog
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I post the following because I do not want falsehoods and agenda driven presentations of "viewpoints" to stand improperly evaluated and uncorrected.

Well, I’m back from my trip to Philadelphia . . . these things tend to get bigger, longer than first envisioned :D. Though it’s been a good week: I am a degree richer. :D

Had a chance to re-read this thread since getting back. Been very interesting to do a quick Data Eval on it.

For any of you guys who might be interested and who know the Data Eval Tech, this thread is a classic example of out-points like omitted data, incorrect or omitted correct sequence, opinion introduced as fact, alteration of facts, omitted facts, omitted time, altered importances, etc., etc., . . . and the one that inflamed this thread an added inapplicable.

The opening post and Thetanic’s posting of it is legit. He says he got it in a vacuum, didn’t know if it was real, what the hell it was all about, and sent to him by a name he doesn’t know. So OK, he posts it as an item of interest.

That was legit. Knowledgism is an item of interest and discussion on this board.

Then the opinions, inapplicables, omissions of data by those who have it; and misdirections start. You can see it if you read the thread from a data evaluation perspective.

I note also, that suddenly a newbie had joined the fray.

Thetanic made the opening post on 14th June 2010, 11:16 PM (NYC time). Unknownuser1 joined ESMB as a Newbie and made his/her first post on 15th June 2010, 03:34 AM . . . . that’s a mere 4 hours 18 minutes after Thetanic’s opening post!!

That’s a little extraordinary, don’t you think? . . . particularly since unknownuser1 has such spot on “insider” info on the Prosperity List, and asserts he/she knows the beginning of and why of “the upset.” The first post by unknownuser1 is a simple statement that the opening post is legit, and was posted on the Prosperity List.

Then CarmelO introduces the first full-blown added inapplicable and misdirector that incites a whole other issue of conflict and argument. Note post #10 on 15th June 2010, 04:31 AM. He posts:



So, where is Lola mentioned in the opening post? Where is it mentioned in that post anything about anyone being fired or dismissed from staff? The opening post only refers to misuse of tech, false claims regarding the tech and unnamed persons acting and having acted to sabotage the tech and its delivery. So why was this “item” (with the evaluated opinion of it) of Lola being dismissed introduced? Certainly at the stage it was introduced on the thread it was an added inapplicable. What it does do is introduce a one-sided attack on the management at the ranch.

You’ll notice how the focus of this thread changed at this point . . . it went from “What are the facts relative to the Kn email cited in the opening post” to “poor Lola, why was she fired, how mean of them that done it to her (and, added later, Al)!”

I was the next poster in sequence with post #11 at 15th June 2010, 09:38 AM just before I was about to take of out of town. I didn’t have the time to do a full handle on the data, so posted off the top of my head the facts I have that relate to the opening post and to CarmelO’s mention of Lola’s dismissal. I state that the info I have re Lola is as said to me, but I do not know the truth of that.

But the key point I made is that what is missing on this thread is the knowledge of and contents of the Post to the Prosperity List to which the post (from David and Ceil) cited in the opener of this thread is a response to. It is that missing post that caused David and Ceil of the ranch management to post as they did. I will not add my opinion of the post here . . . I’ve already mentioned it was a goof.

What I am still surprised by is that those in possession of that original, inciting post have not made that omitted data available to you folks, along with other omitted data/posts that would help resolve the mystery and conflict.

Some have wisely referred to the tech point that for a problem or conflict to exist or persist there must be an unknown. Hellooooo . . . so why has this info not been posted by those who have it yet are saying so much on this thread.

I do not condone the particular use of some tech points by David and Ceil in their post. It is not a post I would have put out. Too many upsetting generalities is one thing that is specifically off about it. But their post was in response to and intended to handle something, and unless you folks know what that was, you are flying blind in trying to opine on the matter.

And there is also other data/missing facts concerning points introduced on this thread.

Here are three missing emails that were posted on the Prosperity List.



Nothing provocative in that . . . . Nothing about being fired; no bitching or moaning Good folks would take Lola at her word, and say; “I wish thee well my Sweet.”

So where is this “Lola got fired” stuff coming from? Who is stirring it up by forwarding it — even if true? And even if true, why the one-sided Lola is a victim, hardly done by traffic? Why is no “why” presented, other than rumor and innuendo to make the executives who allegedly fired her look bad?

I hold no agenda in all of this . . . I am simply looking at the data trail and “information” cum comments as presented . . . . and it stinks!

The next post in time sequence on the Prosperity List of importance pertaining to the subject at hand is that from The Kypers. This is the Post on the Prosperity List (owned and run by Alan’s created ACLC operation that served all the ranch clients), that created the situation to which Ceil and David responded so unfortunately.



I will not bother picking this apart, I don’t have the time for this type of traffic. You can read it as you wish. But I’ll tell you there is the usual smoozing bullshit and falsehood in it that you’d see in a communication that is agenda driven rather than intended to communicate simple truth.

Now, for the record, CarmelO also introduces (post #30) the item that “Al” got fired, along with other opinions and speculation. So, where is that relevant to and on the issues covered in the opening post of this thread?

Here is Al’s response to the Kyper’s post on the Prosperity List . . . . note Al’s post was a day before David and Ceil’s response to the Kyper’s post.



Note we are dealing with Prosperity List posts above . . . no verbal rumor, no hidden third party. It has been stated on this thread that the “upset to the” Kn lines/Prosperity List folks “began before the Kyper’s post,” yet no specific "what" or "who’s" have been stated, but only “hidden data” used. And there is nothing of an upset vein posted on the list prior to the Kyper’s post.

Reviewing the date sequence of the posts from the particular individuals cited in this “dispute,” we see the following:

1. Jun 12th, 2010 2:24 AM EDT Lola posts she is leaving the ranch, and wishes all well.
2. June 12, 2010, 4:00 PM (EDT) The Kypers make their post across the Knowledgism lines
3. June 12, 2010, 5:17 PM (EDT) Al Leggett Posts “Heresy!”
4. June 13, 2010, 4:51 PM (EDT) David and Ceil post their response, as cited in the opener on this thread.
Now, if you are interested, re-read this thread and do an evaluation/analysis as to who is doing/saying what that is adding fuel to the fire, stirring the pot while at the same time not providing the known data that would have presented a complete picture versus only pushing the agenda of a one-sided view. And also note which “side” these folks are pushing and which side they are putting down.

And in particular note the agenda being pushed by the suddenly appearing newbies.

I actually have no axe to grind in this. I only care about the truth being known. I don’t like lies and distortions being pushed.

Further, for the record, I was put off the Prosperity List by Alan in December 2005, and have not been to the ranch since Sept. 2005. (The P. List posts above were forwarded to me by clients and friends.)

I am also not in the business of trying to accumulate clients as some accused me of when I first came on this board. I am wealthy enough to not have to bother with that. Last week I made $30K for the week . . . I simply do not need to sit down for dollars an hour listening to the same old boring stuff. I only work with a few friends who I truly like and who are smart enough to benefit from what I can do to help them. As many on this board know, I spend endless time on PM and email traffic helping folks for free . . . this because they have demonstrated they are worth it and that they have truly reached to know. There is no one on ESMB that I’ve ever asked a penny of. What I have done is recommend they go to the place I have found to have the best tech available . . . the Knowledgism Ranch. And I have never acted to poach any of the Ranch’s clients as the Kyper’s email on the Prosperity List, in my view, attempted to do.

But trying to steal the Ranch’s clients is not the issue I am on about . . . it is the corruption of a workable tech and the misrepresentation of certain elements as conveyed in that email.

For my part, all I’ve discovered I have made known and available to Alan while he was alive. My stance has been to add to the workability and effectiveness of the ongoing operation . . . I think it is destructive to undermine or tear down an establishment that is doing well and doing good work . . . . why not add to and empower it?? That’s what I did . . . . why not co-ordinate our power and make more effective our reach and influence toward the helping of the society we say we wish to help and serve?

That is also why I communicate all I can of my knowledge that I think will help folks here and elsewhere. That is why I spent my $$$’s to go and present at the FZ Conference in Pasadena last October.

The Kyper’s email and Eric Wolery’s “proposition” does not do that.

And that is the tragedy of what has happened here. And David and Ceil responded erroneously . . . . and that too is a tragedy.

Now I’ve had enough of this . . . I have better things to do.

RogerB

"When the going gets tough,the tough get going". Lol!

I'm primarily a "standard techie" with an enormous heretical bent.

Visited the ranch , Alan and Ceil. The only names I can remember,
Plus the beautiful brown eyed girl who was Alan's co-processor name forgotten.

We all went ext over lunch.

Spent a decade trying to resolve FZ conflicts.

Would love to do so here.

Anyone has any issues on this are welcome to communicate with me.

Done data series.
 
Thetanic made the opening post on 14th June 2010, 11:16 PM (NYC time). Unknownuser1 joined ESMB as a Newbie and made his/her first post on 15th June 2010, 03:34 AM . . . . that’s a mere 4 hours 18 minutes after Thetanic’s opening post!!

That’s a little extraordinary, don’t you think? . . . particularly since unknownuser1 has such spot on “insider” info on the Prosperity List, and asserts he/she knows the beginning of and why of “the upset.” The first post by unknownuser1 is a simple statement that the opening post is legit, and was posted on the Prosperity List.

suspicious, but not good enough for a grand jury to indite

Then CarmelO introduces the first full-blown added inapplicable and misdirector that incites a whole other issue of conflict and argument. Note post #10 on 15th June 2010, 04:31 AM. He posts:
thanks for verifying the authenticity.

what a sad ending.

i did the codes in 95 in Dallas, before the ranch.

Lola was there then.

firing her and calling her Red Zone is gnarly.

So, where is Lola mentioned in the opening post? Where is it mentioned in that post anything about anyone being fired or dismissed from staff? The opening post only refers to misuse of tech, false claims regarding the tech and unnamed persons acting and having acted to sabotage the tech and its delivery. So why was this “item” (with the evaluated opinion of it) of Lola being dismissed introduced? Certainly at the stage it was introduced on the thread it was an added inapplicable. What it does do is introduce a one-sided attack on the management at the ranch.

At the point in time where I posted that post #10, I had been hearing for weeks about the upset generated by Lola and Al's termination. Since I haven't been on the Prosperity List for a decade, I was completely unaware of any posts leading to the ending of the Prosperity List post which is the main part of post #1. I was working on the knowledge of the upsets generated by the terminations combined with that post of David Nelson and signed off by Ceil Stanford.

You’ll notice how the focus of this thread changed at this point . . . it went from “What are the facts relative to the Kn email cited in the opening post” to “poor Lola, why was she fired, how mean of them that done it to her (and, added later, Al)!”

I was the next poster in sequence with post #11 at 15th June 2010, 09:38 AM just before I was about to take off out of town. I didn’t have the time to do a full handle on the data, so posted off the top of my head the facts I have that relate to the opening post and to CarmelO’s mention of Lola’s dismissal. I state that the info I have re Lola is as said to me, but I do not know the truth of that.

But the key point I made is that what is missing on this thread is the knowledge of and contents of the Post to the Prosperity List to which the post (from David and Ceil) cited in the opener of this thread is a response to. It is that missing post that caused David and Ceil of the ranch management to post as they did. I will not add my opinion of the post here . . . I’ve already mentioned it was a goof.

What I am still surprised by is that those in possession of that original, inciting post have not made that omitted data available to you folks, along with other omitted data/posts that would help resolve the mystery and conflict.

Some have wisely referred to the tech point that for a problem or conflict to exist or persist there must be an unknown. Hellooooo . . . so why has this info not been posted by those who have it yet are saying so much on this thread.

I do not condone the particular use of some tech points by David and Ceil in their post. It is not a post I would have put out. Too many upsetting generalities is one thing that is specifically off about it. But their post was in response to and intended to handle something, and unless you folks know what that was, you are flying blind in trying to opine on the matter.

And there is also other data/missing facts concerning points introduced on this thread.

Here are three missing emails that were posted on the Prosperity List.



Nothing provocative in that . . . . Nothing about being fired; no bitching or moaning Good folks would take Lola at her word, and say; “I wish thee well my Sweet.”

So where is this “Lola got fired” stuff coming from? Who is stirring it up by forwarding it — even if true? And even if true, why the one-sided Lola is a victim, hardly done by traffic? Why is no “why” presented, other than rumor and innuendo to make the executives who allegedly fired her look bad?

I hold no agenda in all of this . . . I am simply looking at the data trail and “information” cum comments as presented . . . . and it stinks!

The next post in time sequence on the Prosperity List of importance pertaining to the subject at hand is that from The Kypers. This is the Post on the Prosperity List (owned and run by Alan’s created ACLC operation that served all the ranch clients), that created the situation to which Ceil and David responded so unfortunately.



I will not bother picking this apart, I don’t have the time for this type of traffic. You can read it as you wish. But I’ll tell you there is the usual smoozing bullshit and falsehood in it that you’d see in a communication that is agenda driven rather than intended to communicate simple truth.

Now, for the record, CarmelO also introduces (post #30) the item that “Al” got fired, along with other opinions and speculation. So, where is that relevant to and on the issues covered in the opening post of this thread?

Here is Al’s response to the Kyper’s post on the Prosperity List . . . . note Al’s post was a day before David and Ceil’s response to the Kyper’s post.



Note we are dealing with Prosperity List posts above . . . no verbal rumor, no hidden third party. It has been stated on this thread that the “upset to the” Kn lines/Prosperity List folks “began before the Kyper’s post,” yet no specific "what" or "who’s" have been stated, but only “hidden data” used. And there is nothing of an upset vein posted on the list prior to the Kyper’s post.

Reviewing the date sequence of the posts from the particular individuals cited in this “dispute,” we see the following:

1. Jun 12th, 2010 2:24 AM EDT Lola posts she is leaving the ranch, and wishes all well.
2. June 12, 2010, 4:00 PM (EDT) The Kypers make their post across the Knowledgism lines
3. June 12, 2010, 5:17 PM (EDT) Al Leggett Posts “Heresy!”
4. June 13, 2010, 4:51 PM (EDT) David and Ceil post their response, as cited in the opener on this thread.
Now, if you are interested, re-read this thread and do an evaluation/analysis as to who is doing/saying what that is adding fuel to the fire, stirring the pot while at the same time not providing the known data that would have presented a complete picture versus only pushing the agenda of a one-sided view. And also note which “side” these folks are pushing and which side they are putting down.

And in particular note the agenda being pushed by the suddenly appearing newbies.

I actually have no axe to grind in this. I only care about the truth being known. I don’t like lies and distortions being pushed.

Further, for the record, I was put off the Prosperity List by Alan in December 2005, and have not been to the ranch since Sept. 2005. (The P. List posts above were forwarded to me by clients and friends.)




I am also not in the business of trying to accumulate clients as some accused me of when I first came on this board. I am wealthy enough to not have to bother with that. Last week I made $30K for the week . . . I simply do not need to sit down for dollars an hour listening to the same old boring stuff. I only work with a few friends who I truly like and who are smart enough to benefit from what I can do to help them. As many on this board know, I spend endless time on PM and email traffic helping folks for free . . . this because they have demonstrated they are worth it and that they have truly reached to know. There is no one on ESMB that I’ve ever asked a penny of. What I have done is recommend they go to the place I have found to have the best tech available . . . the Knowledgism Ranch. And I have never acted to poach any of the Ranch’s clients as the Kyper’s email on the Prosperity List, in my view, attempted to do.

But trying to steal the Ranch’s clients is not the issue I am on about . . . it is the corruption of a workable tech and the misrepresentation of certain elements as conveyed in that email.

For my part, all I’ve discovered I have made known and available to Alan while he was alive. My stance has been to add to the workability and effectiveness of the ongoing operation . . . I think it is destructive to undermine or tear down an establishment that is doing well and doing good work . . . . why not add to and empower it?? That’s what I did . . . . why not co-ordinate our power and make more effective our reach and influence toward the helping of the society we say we wish to help and serve?

That is also why I communicate all I can of my knowledge that I think will help folks here and elsewhere. That is why I spent my $$$’s to go and present at the FZ Conference in Pasadena last October.

Roger, you are nothing, if not honorable, intelligent, literate, level headed, and responsible. When everyone else is losing their heads, you are cool under fire.

The Kyper’s email and Eric Wolery’s “proposition” does not do that.

What is / was Eric's proposition?

And that is the tragedy of what has happened here. And David and Ceil responded erroneously . . . . and that too is a tragedy.

Now I’ve had enough of this . . . I have better things to do.

RogerB

We all have better things to do, and / or to talk about.

Thank You

May i now point everyone's attention over to a thread on ESMB, that I particularly admire (it is the thread that I, personally have gotten the most from):

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=14524
 
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ExDoE

New Member
This has been an interesting thread. Generally speaking, it has been fairly accurate.

I can say that there are many different viewpoints and many different interests here. As far as this unfolding drama, I have no doubt that it would have been resolved many moons ago had the appropriate communication been practiced.

At least there are people on this board who seem to know how to communicate. Sometimes it's a bit incomplete and sometimes a bit biased, but all things considered, pretty good. And this is a good way to resolve problems.

I haven't had a whole lot to say about it yet as I just don't know how much good would come of it. I don't know how much help it would be in resolving the problem to hand. I always liked the "to hand." : )

Many people have evolved the tech and I think that is inevitable. I see that as a good thing and hope it will continue.

Ex
 
Well, T. I shall remember and honor that from here on. It's funny how an image can be created by an avatar picture . . . . it just seemed so masculine!

PS: I got the message that you had no other traffic from the P. List when you opened this thread:yes: And I well understand you going into a WTF on the item you received. Hence the validity of posting it here as you did.

Rog

Well, she is a BALLSY female. :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker
 
The 2nd post on this thread appears to be from the now banned Lisa Ann Marie, not UnknownUser1.

ROGER: Thetanic made the opening post on 14th June 2010, 11:16 PM (NYC time). Unknownuser1 joined ESMB as a Newbie and made his/her first post on 15th June 2010, 03:34 AM . . . . that’s a mere 4 hours 18 minutes after Thetanic’s opening post!!

You are correct, as to #2 being LAM. Unknownuser1 was the 8th poster. However, allowing for difference in time zones in reported times, Roger is correct about the 4h18m time differential on uku1's post.

This need not be interpreted as "suspicious" activity on uku1's part, it could be a synchronistic coincidence. In my experience such things do happen, especially among scientologists and the like. :coolwink:

It might also easily be as a result of information received from a friend already on esmb who saw the thread and, knowing of the likelihood of uku1's interest in the topic, personally "tipped him off" as to its existence. Or, possible not. Only uku1 knows for sure, and there is no reason he must explain himself. :)


Mark A. Baker
 
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And that is the tragedy of what has happened here. And David and Ceil responded erroneously . . . . and that too is a tragedy.

Well, for my part and I'm certain I am not alone in this, it was the nature of the response of the current leadership of the aclc that I found to be disturbingly inappropriate, rather than the specific arguments that resulted in initiating that particular flamewar. :omg:

I do appreciate your comments seeking to clarify the history of this particular "prosperity list" exchange. But they don't really address the extremity of the reactivity of the "official response" made on that list. Not that I consider it to be incumbent on you, Rog, to explain away the irrationalities & reactivities of others. What little I've seen of Alan's tech improvements appear to me to be quite valuable. Unfortunately, those heated comments of Mr. Nelson & Ms. Stanford do nothing to assure one of the wisdom of their own individual judgements.


Now I’ve had enough of this . . . I have better things to do.

RogerB

I for one hope you don't stray too far, Rog, as the idea of having your contributions to a "new prosperity list thread" here on esmb is an attractive one to me.


Mark A. Baker
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
...
Here are three missing emails that were posted on the Prosperity List.
...

From: Marcus and Diane Kuypers
Subject: [prosperity] Acknowledgments
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 4:00 PM
...
When Eric left ACLC a few years ago he took his work with him and has continued to develop and refine it. Now he has a very powerful and useful set of processes that are able to cut to the core of why we do the things we do. It is wonderful to see that Eric has been able to remove himself from the old Scientology approach and make it so much more practical and realistic. This isn't some "secret technology for the initiated" anymore. I think his approach is simple, direct and useful. This is part of the evolution of processing as we learn what works, expand it, refine it and learn how to do it better, faster, and simpler.
...

Thanks Roger for providing the context of the OP.

I can see the reason Ceil and David reacted.

The quoted 'succes story' from Markus and Diane is at least bad taste to me for the following:

  1. It states that Eric has the Games Matrix tech with him and he is using it (Was he authorized? Does he have it all?) But this point of the communication would not be really bad if it would come as just a success story and a validation of this tech).
    :)
  2. It states that Eric developed further on this tech and made it better. This in my view is a degradation of the Games Matrix tech and a put down of the ACLC. It implies that the Games Matrix tech in possession of ACLC is missing the latest breackthougts made by Eric and it remained more complex that it should (Eric's is "better, faster, simpler").
    :no:
  3. The above has been communicated using ACLC comm lines! :grouch: Well, that is really bad taste to me, I see the damage done to ACLC, and I fully understand (but no approve) Ceil and David reaction.

I'm not a knowledgist, I have no idea how the Ranch is organized nor what its legal setup and client agreements are. I am for an "Open Souce" Tech (free to use and modify, like in free software, with the requirement that all further developments build on top of that tech remain free and are shared).

But I also understand that the Knowledgism tech has been developed by great efforts by Alan and ACLC staff and ACLC has all the rights to protect it and deliver/license it for compensation as they see fit.

Eric can call his "improved" tech something else, find his own clients and do his business out of ACLC comm lines.


About Ceil and David reaction, it is an understandable but an unfortunate reaction indeed. Something along this line would have been better:

"We are happy that what Eric has learned at the ACLC has been of help to him and his clients, we just want to make clear that the full Games Matrix tech has not yet been released (with the exception of few wrtitings) not even to Eric and remember you that the ACLC is the only training center where you can get the full and original Games Matrix tech (when relesed) along with all the ... (promo of the ACLC)..."
... and then make sure that the list gets moderated so that no other people use it to distract people from the ACLC.

I believe that is how my PR guru Dale Carnegie :biglove: would have handled it.

 

Eelo Ars

Patron
to Roger

I wondered what had happened that you were no longer posting "Roger's Journal" on the prosperity list. I greatly enjoyed your journal, and would like to see it again. How 'bout starting one here? And if things don't go well, you can kick yourself off; or I can kick myself off. :)
 

RogerB

Crusader
I wondered what had happened that you were no longer posting "Roger's Journal" on the prosperity list. I greatly enjoyed your journal, and would like to see it again. How 'bout starting one here? And if things don't go well, you can kick yourself off; or I can kick myself off. :)

Now that's a nice gentlemanly/lady-like comment, and with good humor :D

I like it:happydance:

Actually, not a bad idea . . . .Roger's Journal: that should ruffle some feathers!:yes:

But I'll tell the truth, I am so very much behind in things I need to do . . . I just got off the phone with someone to do with some consulting vis a vis my book, and that traffic needs be addressed. Virginia is a little miffed that I've spent so much time on ESMB and the Ozzie scene we just put to bed, and neglected our joint venture.

Though, I was thinking this morning that my case advances and tech discoveries ought be recorded somewhere as I know there are folks who can benefit from the info. The info has only been shared with a small group that I coach . . . so a Roger's Journal is a good thought.

Rog
 

FoTi

Crusader
Now that's a nice gentlemanly/lady-like comment, and with good humor :D

I like it:happydance:

Actually, not a bad idea . . . .Roger's Journal: that should ruffle some feathers!:yes:


Though, I was thinking this morning that my case advances and tech discoveries ought be recorded somewhere as I know there are folks who can benefit from the info. The info has only been shared with a small group that I coach . . . so a Roger's Journal is a good thought.

Rog

Yeh....Roger's Journal is a good thought. I hope it becomes more than just a thought. :yes:
 
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