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Fundamentalist KSW Independent Scientology

Gib

Crusader
Bottom line, a lot of the processing stuff is SO INTERESTING, that I cannot understand how any seeker would not value it. About the only stuff I object to is Sec Checking and running "implants".

interesting is one thing.

what's it supposed to do

is another thing.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
Really? I'd love to see the scientific articles you are basing that assessment on.

I'd love to see one tiny iota of "science" Hubbard based his "tech" on.

(Hubbards bullshit claims of case studies and patients, which there is zero evidence ever existed, don't count. Hubbard was a master at using specific numbers and science-y sounding crap to convince the gullible and uneducated there was some actual scientific foundation to his laughable bullshit.)
 
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Gib

Crusader
I love to see one tiny iota of "science" Hubbard based his "tech" on.

(Hubbards bullshit claims of case studies and patients, which there is zero evidence ever existed, don't count. Hubbard was a master at using specific numbers and science-y sounding crap to convince the gullible and uneducated there was some actual scientific foundation to his laughable bullshit.)

hubbard created his own game with his rules.

unfortunately he used the mind as the playing ground.

He didn't use some MEST object like a football.

I'd rather play football. there da rules don't change so often.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I'd love to see one tiny iota of "science" Hubbard based his "tech" on.

(Hubbards bullshit claims of case studies and patients, which there is zero evidence ever existed, don't count. Hubbard was a master at using specific numbers and science-y sounding crap to convince the gullible and uneducated there was some actual scientific foundation to his laughable bullshit.)

I never said his stuff was based in science. It wasn't. Don't be silly.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
interesting is one thing.

what's it supposed to do

is another thing.

I completely agree. It doesn't do what he said it would do. However, a person who doesn't acknowledge that auditing does something for the "preclear" doesn't understand how you bait a trap.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Re: FIS: The solution is to reinstate the original OT levels.

It was Hubbard, not Miscavige, who changed the OT levels after OT 3.
That is why I said "DM caused the original OT levels to be cancelled..." :coolwink: I figured if I was going to be sarcastic, I should do so consistent with Fundamentalist Independent Scientology mythology. :devil:

I actually find Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists embracing the original OT levels fascinating for that very reason. What will they say when somebody points out that it was Ron who cancelled and/or replaced them? How is that consistent with KSW? Enquiring minds want to know. :coolwink:
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: FIS: The solution is to reinstate the original OT levels.

That is why I said "DM caused the original OT levels to be cancelled..." :coolwink: I figured if I was going to be sarcastic, I should do so consistent with Fundamentalist Independent Scientology mythology. :devil:

I actually find Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists embracing the original OT levels fascinating for that very reason. What will they say when somebody points out that it was Ron who cancelled and/or replaced them? How is that consistent with KSW? Enquiring minds want to know. :coolwink:

Original OT levels are embraced by most FZ/Indies whether or not fundamentalist.

AFAIK it was not LRH that cancelled them.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Re: FIS: The solution is to reinstate the original OT levels.

That is why I said "DM caused the original OT levels to be cancelled..." :coolwink: I figured if I was going to be sarcastic, I should do so consistent with Fundamentalist Independent Scientology mythology. :devil:

I actually find Fundamentalist Independent Scientologists embracing the original OT levels fascinating for that very reason. What will they say when somebody points out that it was Ron who cancelled and/or replaced them?

-snip-

I assumed you were kidding around, but this is the FZ section, and the occasional FZoner who lurks is likely to be surrounded by people who believe that Hubbard was a war hero who healed himself from his crippling war wounds with Dianetics, and that Hubbard was a high level Naval intelligence officer.

Hubbard, they think, is their best friend, who wants them to become "OT." It's not likely that such folks will be interested in anything that will burst their bubble.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I don't refute that there has been a trail of death and mayhem in Hubbard's wake.

I do deny that it comes from auditing.

I completely agree. It doesn't do what he said it would do. However, a person who doesn't acknowledge that auditing does something for the "preclear" doesn't understand how you bait a trap.

guidance-0808-lg-12718714.jpg
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: FIS: "set up a training space in each continent" New FIS Sea Org? FIST?

FIS = Fundamentalist Independent Scientology.

Will FIS be establishing its own Sea Org per the below?

Will we see Fundamentalist Independent Scientology Technology (FIST) on the Third and Fourth Dynamics?

FIS: "the action for us to take is to set up a training space in each continent" ("What caused the 70's boom")
http://www.iscientology.org/scientology-blog/446-what-caused-the-70-s-boom

Poor Tom, he's really quite clueless when it comes to the full history.

It was Alan Walter that built 10 missions (Tom listed most of them) sending those 100's of people to upper orgs. Hubbard smashed Alan in 1970 and Alan in defeat turned his missions into orgs. They promptly failed. The stat boom was created by crush regging, postulate checks, etc. Actions which led to the immediate demise of all those orgs. By 1975 every one of those orgs was back to small and struggling and are still that way to this very moment.

Gotta pity the man, he's so far up Hubbard's dead ass I fear he'll never come out of the poop.
 

RogerB

Crusader
Reading those posts by Tom Martiniano above that were transferred from somewhere else.

Tom, I do't know when you got into $cn, but I see you mention the post you were on in 1986.

You speak of "what boomed $cn" in the '70's. Ummm, you missed the correct data in your eval. Probably because it was not available to you, and certainly you have not cited the explicit what, whys and who's.

You also jumbled up some time . . .

The "Study Tech" was first introduced around 1964-5.

In August, 1969, Alan Walter had 1,000+ fully paid SHSBC course paid for on behalf of the staff and public of his several Missions . . . and this in the US alone. In 1967-8 I was producing 55 new names a week as PES for the London Day org and a further 25 per week for Fnd . . . this from properly utilizing and training FSMs and doing effective Intro lectures . . . the lectures were such that SHSBC students used to come up to London to sit in on them so they could take the handling of this successful action back to the US to use in Missions.

The release of OT3 is not the why of the "boom" . . . the why of it began earlier with effective individuals applying the tech and successfully interesting new public and giving the gains that were real to them . . . . that expansion (where ever it is referred to as occurring but is not stated by you) that was visible "in the '70's" was the result of effectively getting folks on lines at Missions and Div 6's in the '60's.

Ummm, anyone who thinks the expansion is the result of "OT3 being discovered and released" is rather imputing magical spiritual powers as the why :biggrin: :nervous:

As to SO management "booming the Orgs" . . . don't kid yourself! I have seen and watched SO management do nothing but crash the stats of the Orgs . . . . for the record, since you may not know, I got on lines in 1957, and was one of the characters that set up the center in Sydney (in 1968) that became the Org . . . . so I have lived the history of this thing.

I can assure you that doing an analysis retroactively and only of the type of data you cite really does miss the real whats, whys, whos . . . .

RogerB
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
There are thousands and thousands of pcs in each continent who are stalled Dianetic Clears that need help. I’ve helped a lot of them and I assure you they are in big trouble

Good to know that these super-duper "Clears" are in big trouble. That seems so very strange. I mean being that they are Homo Novi why is it that they are not doing supercalafragalisticly amazingly well in life now that they are "Clear" and no longer have that nasty reactive mind getting in their road?

Why Tom?

Oh, that's right, because they have theta cooties bedeviling them.

And all those poor broke or dead OT VIII completions? Gonna blame it all on DM I guess?

Tom, consider yourself "Qual Summoned". Come over here and start on your next OT Level - Truth Revealed. (PM me for the specific thread topics when you arrive.)
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Ahhh, the dead, suicided, recovering/recovered ex's have nothing to do with it. :giggle:

Cognitive Dissonance
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cognitive dissonance
"psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously."

Denial
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denial
"6: a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality."

Well, certainly there may be people that feel their auditing caused their problems. Perhaps that's true. My personal belief is that auditing doesn't cause problems, but the organization does use it to bait a trap (promised OT abilities or Clear State, solution of the person's "ruin", etc.)
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, certainly there may be people that feel their auditing caused their problems. Perhaps that's true. My personal belief is that auditing doesn't cause problems, but the organization does use it to bait a trap (promised OT abilities or Clear State, solution of the person's "ruin", etc.)

I'd just point out that not all auditors and C/Ses are equal. I don't discount that "bad" auditing or C/Sing could damage a person's mental state.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I never said his stuff was based in science. It wasn't. Don't be silly.

Well, certainly there may be people that feel their auditing caused their problems. Perhaps that's true. My personal belief is that auditing doesn't cause problems, but the organization does use it to bait a trap (promised OT abilities or Clear State, solution of the person's "ruin", etc.)

Have you ever heard of Lisa McPherson, just one example of someone who received auditing and well, it didn't work out for her. How about Rex Fowler, there's guy who's a shining example of auditing. Just because you have a personal belief doesn't rid negative results of hubbard's scientology as testimony of ex's here, and make your belief a universal truth. I sincerely appreciate the maybe and perhaps, there's more here at ESMB that the freezone/protech threads, please look around, people have died, many survivors are seeking professional counseling to recover from this auditing that supposedly doesn't cause problems.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Yes, of course I'm familiar with the McPherson case, and the abuse she suffered. It's quite a stretch to call that auditing, since nobody is asking any questions, and nobody is inspecting their experience and reporting. I'm sorry, but evoking this is a strong appeal to emotion, but rationally completely inapplicable. Of course there are actions that people loosely call "auditing" and which could be harmful to a person. However, the basics of asking a person a question, getting an answer, and acknowledging the answer are NOT unhealthy. To assert such would be ridiculous.

Of course, in any environment of coercion, all bets are off. My own experience of auditing was quite interesting and I think beneficial (as did all my friends and relations), though as I said, they would have happily sang if I left the Church and never did any more auditing.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Yes, of course I'm familiar with the McPherson case, and the abuse she suffered. It's quite a stretch to call that auditing, since nobody is asking any questions, and nobody is inspecting their experience and reporting. I'm sorry, but evoking this is a strong appeal to emotion, but rationally completely inapplicable. Of course there are actions that people loosely call "auditing" and which could be harmful to a person. However, the basics of asking a person a question, getting an answer, and acknowledging the answer are NOT unhealthy. To assert such would be ridiculous.

Of course, in any environment of coercion, all bets are off. My own experience of auditing was quite interesting and I think beneficial (as did all my friends and relations), though as I said, they would have happily sang if I left the Church and never did any more auditing.

Real examples of people who have received auditing isn't an appeal to emotion, although if you want to feel compassion for those harmed, it's okay and not a logical fallacy to do so. You are oversimplifying your case and you well know there's an entire indoctrination process called scientology to ask these questions, come on. Both people cited, Lisa and Rex both received extensive auditing. I would enjoy talking with you much more if you stop minimizing the deaths and mental trauma caused by hubbard's scientology, but then again, cognitive dissonance and denial are interesting to watch. Sigh.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Real examples of people who have received auditing isn't an appeal to emotion, although if you want to feel compassion for those harmed, it's okay and not a logical fallacy to do so. You are oversimplifying your case and you well know there's an entire indoctrination process called scientology to ask these questions, come on. Both people cited, Lisa and Rex both received extensive auditing. I would enjoy talking with you much more if you stop minimizing the deaths and mental trauma caused by hubbard's scientology, but then again, cognitive dissonance and denial are interesting to watch. Sigh.

I appreciate the continued dialog, but I don't feel your assessment of cognitive dissonance is valid. Yes, as my sigfile expresses, I'm not an advocate of Dianetics & Scientology en toto. As a package (whole system), I advise people to stay away. However, regarding auditing, which I've done with people "Book One" style with NO indoctrination and with good results (nobody went "Clear"), or other auditing actions minus the coercive cult indoctrination system, I don't see problems. I don't minimize what others have gone through.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I appreciate the continued dialog, but I don't feel your assessment of cognitive dissonance is valid. Yes, as my sigfile expresses, I'm not an advocate of Dianetics & Scientology en toto. As a package (whole system), I advise people to stay away. However, regarding auditing, which I've done with people "Book One" style with NO indoctrination and with good results (nobody went "Clear"), or other auditing actions minus the coercive cult indoctrination system, I don't see problems. I don't minimize what others have gone through.

Okay, so dianetics and scientology aren't safe, you don't recommend them but you use them. They don't work as advertised and never have but you don't see any problems even though people have died and seek real therapeutic counseling afterwards if they are able to. That's cognitive dissonance and I kindly wish you well working through it.

:)
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Okay, so dianetics and scientology aren't safe, you don't recommend them but you use them. They don't work as advertised and never have but you don't see any problems even though people have died and seek real therapeutic counseling afterwards if they are able to. That's cognitive dissonance and I kindly wish you well working through it.

:)

Again, you've managed to misunderstand. Elements of dianetics and scientology are safe, they don't do what is claimed, but they do have beneficial effects. I don't see any problem with people using those parts, despite people having died or been destroyed by using other parts. :)
 
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