Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration impossible

[ThetanExterior]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

It seems to me that this whole problem was caused by the Garcias signing away their rights to independent arbitration. So instead of arguing about the CoS arbitration, which we all know will be a farce, why haven't they argued that it was illegal for them to be made to sign away their rights in the first place?

Or have they already argued this? Or was it not illegal?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Is there even one issue dealing with arbitration in scientology policy? Issued before this fiasco?

My reading of all the previously published articles is that THERE ARE NO SPECIFIC ARBITRATION POLICIES.

What the COS did in a slap-dash moment of cult terror is to OFFER UP TO THE COURT THE HCOPL(s) ON COM EVS.

Obviously, there is no slightest connection between an Arbitration and a Com Ev, other than both have ill-equipped Scientologists trying to find justice without any means of doing so. That is to say, Hubbard's policies/"technology" are guaranteed to create injustice, which is why 99% of Scientologists eventually blow.

The court, in their infinite stupidity, accepted a Scientology-manned Arbitration, even though the cult's policies blatantly promote the doctrines that the COS is never wrong and anyone criticizing or suing is, by definition, an SP, a CRIMINAL and someone who HAS NO RIGHTS.

And someone who must be destroyed.

Put all that together and add in a half-gallon of KSW Scientologists manning the whole travesty and you have a manifestly malevolent mandate by the court that guarantees ALL OF THE RIGHTS OF THE PLAINTIVE WILL BE IGNORED, TRAMPLED OR WORSE.

The judge on this case is no different than the stupid IRS that ruled in favor of Scientology being a tax-exempt religion.

If there was a judge on any of those cases who was sworn supporter of the US Constitution, then this is what would have happened in those two instances:

1) The Arbitration would have been delegated to any one of the top-flight professional Arbitration-Mediation organizations that have lawyers and judges running the show according to tried-and-true, proven methodologies based on law. Thus, the Garcia's would not have been subjected to the absurd injustice of having to try to prove that Scientology is a treacherously lying criminal organization.

2) The IRS would have forced the COS to separate their "RELIGION" from the "SALES OF PRODUCTS". Thus, all pricelist donations (auditing/training) would not have been tax exempt. Likewise the properties (other than the "chapel" if it is fully dedicated to "worship") would have been liable for property taxes. And even more importantly than taxes, the COS would have been fully under the control of CONSUMER PROTECTION STATUTES AND AGENCIES. That last one would have opened the floodgates for lawyers eager to get their client's donations back for fraud. To wit, end of Scn as we know it!

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

<snip>

The judge on this case is no different than the stupid IRS that ruled in favor of Scientology being a tax-exempt religion.

If there was a judge on any of those cases who was sworn supporter of the US Constitution, then this is what would have happened in those two instances:

1) The Arbitration would have been delegated to any one of the top-flight professional Arbitration-Mediation organizations that have lawyers and judges running the show according to tried-and-true, proven methodologies based on law. Thus, the Garcia's would not have been subjected to the absurd injustice of having to try to prove that Scientology is a treacherously lying criminal organization.

2) The IRS would have forced the COS to separate their "RELIGION" from the "SALES OF PRODUCTS". Thus, all pricelist donations (auditing/training) would not have been tax exempt. Likewise the properties (other than the "chapel" if it is fully dedicated to "worship") would have been liable for property taxes. And even more importantly than taxes, the COS would have been fully under the control of CONSUMER PROTECTION STATUTES AND AGENCIES. That last one would have opened the floodgates for lawyers eager to get their client's donations back for fraud. To wit, end of Scn as we know it!

How could the CoS separate their "RELIGION" from the "SALES OF PRODUCTS", when the "SALES OF PRODUCTS" IS their "RELIGION"?* :confused2:





* I exaggerated a bit there. The "SALES OF PRODUCTS" isn't truly their entire religion.

It also includes the solicitation of "donations" for Ideal Orgs, Library Donation Projects, Way to Happiness booklets, and the unrelenting demand to increase ones IAS status.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

My guess of what happens next is Scientology will appeal to a higher court to have the judge's ruling over turned,.

Mimsey

 

[tesseract]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

My guess of what happens next is Scientology will appeal to a higher court to have the judge's ruling over turned,.

Mimsey

I have an almost shiny 1 € coin here that says, settlement.
I'm not willing to bet more because it's a scientology case and that means, anything can happen, anytime.
It's like when sentences don't end the way you octopus


On a more serious note, I suspect they will complain about the ruling as unconstitutional, insofar as the chosen arbitrators "need" to stay in contact with their "church" for their "spiritual processing", which the court ruling forbids. They'll probably try to exploit that situation for a while to play the victim, for their own parishioners and the few gullible sympathisants. Then, "suddenly" there'll be a settlement offering (because the lawyers keep telling Dave that the situation is getting serious).
Ironically, as set out at the Underground Bunker in the comments, trying to settle now makes it necessary for CoS to ask for the hold on the lawsuit being lifted and that might (the experts are not sure) put them in danger of the judge ruling that the arbitration process is unfeasible/nonexistent. That might open the doors to future litigation for refunds.
Or the judge rules at some point during choosing the arbitrators, or during arbitration, that the arbitration process is unfeasible and/or unfair.
So many possibilities...

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Lots of great comments at the Bunker, I thought.

There is no way in Xenu's hell the Church is going to generate a list of 500 Scientologists in good standing for distribution to the court or anyone. They don't want Scientologists to know this case even exists let alone giving them a reason to find out what it is about.

I am a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences and this just became a little more popcorn worthy.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

I have an almost shiny 1 € coin here that says, settlement.
I'm not willing to bet more because it's a scientology case and that means, anything can happen, anytime.
It's like when sentences don't end the way you octopus


On a more serious note, I suspect they will complain about the ruling as unconstitutional, insofar as the chosen arbitrators "need" to stay in contact with their "church" for their "spiritual processing", which the court ruling forbids. They'll probably try to exploit that situation for a while to play the victim, for their own parishioners and the few gullible sympathisants. Then, "suddenly" there'll be a settlement offering (because the lawyers keep telling Dave that the situation is getting serious).
Ironically, as set out at the Underground Bunker in the comments, trying to settle now makes it necessary for CoS to ask for the hold on the lawsuit being lifted and that might (the experts are not sure) put them in danger of the judge ruling that the arbitration process is unfeasible/nonexistent. That might open the doors to future litigation for refunds.
Or the judge rules at some point during choosing the arbitrators, or during arbitration, that the arbitration process is unfeasible and/or unfair.
So many possibilities...

Yes, yes, yes! So many possibilities!

Let's not rule out the distinct possibility that the Garcias suddenly and mysteriously drop their lawsuit, publicly fire their attorneys and then publish a 1000 page, madly hand-scribbled manifesto from a remote log cabin[SUP]1[/SUP], detailing how Tony Ortega and the Russians hacked their litigation and brought about its demise.

It doesn't have to make any sense--it's Scientology!

LOL


.



[SUP]1[/SUP] LINK

 

[Karen#1]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

My reading of all the previously published articles is that THERE ARE NO SPECIFIC ARBITRATION POLICIES.

What the COS did in a slap-dash moment of cult terror is to OFFER UP TO THE COURT THE HCOPL(s) ON COM EVS.

Obviously, there is no slightest connection between an Arbitration and a Com Ev, other than both have ill-equipped Scientologists trying to find justice without any means of doing so. That is to say, Hubbard's policies/"technology" are guaranteed to create injustice, which is why 99% of Scientologists eventually blow.

The court, in their infinite stupidity, accepted a Scientology-manned Arbitration, even though the cult's policies blatantly promote the doctrines that the COS is never wrong and anyone criticizing or suing is, by definition, an SP, a CRIMINAL and someone who HAS NO RIGHTS.

And someone who must be destroyed.

Put all that together and add in a half-gallon of KSW Scientologists manning the whole travesty and you have a manifestly malevolent mandate by the court that guarantees ALL OF THE RIGHTS OF THE PLAINTIVE WILL BE IGNORED, TRAMPLED OR WORSE.

The judge on this case is no different than the stupid IRS that ruled in favor of Scientology being a tax-exempt religion.

If there was a judge on any of those cases who was sworn supporter of the US Constitution, then this is what would have happened in those two instances:

1) The Arbitration would have been delegated to any one of the top-flight professional Arbitration-Mediation organizations that have lawyers and judges running the show according to tried-and-true, proven methodologies based on law. Thus, the Garcia's would not have been subjected to the absurd injustice of having to try to prove that Scientology is a treacherously lying criminal organization.

2) The IRS would have forced the COS to separate their "RELIGION" from the "SALES OF PRODUCTS". Thus, all pricelist donations (auditing/training) would not have been tax exempt. Likewise the properties (other than the "chapel" if it is fully dedicated to "worship") would have been liable for property taxes. And even more importantly than taxes, the COS would have been fully under the control of CONSUMER PROTECTION STATUTES AND AGENCIES. That last one would have opened the floodgates for lawyers eager to get their client's donations back for fraud. To wit, end of Scn as we know it!

Judge Waldrip of Comal County District court ruled as a finding after weighing 2 years of evidence ::::​

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Judge Waldrip of Comal County District court ruled as a finding after weighing 2 years of evidence ::::​

Yes! That was a wondrous and rare moment of light in what has otherwise been 67 years of the Scientology-induced "Dark Ages" of judicial blindness.

If only other judges and jurisprudence regulatory agencies had such clarity! Judge Waldrip's conclusion was like a moon-less, pitch black night, suddenly illuminated by a momentary, fleeting flash of lightning!

Yayyy for the brightness of functionally rational people!

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

My reading of all the previously published articles is that THERE ARE NO SPECIFIC ARBITRATION POLICIES.

What the COS did in a slap-dash moment of cult terror is to OFFER UP TO THE COURT THE HCOPL(s) ON COM EVS.

Obviously, there is no slightest connection between an Arbitration and a Com Ev, other than both have ill-equipped Scientologists trying to find justice without any means of doing so. That is to say, Hubbard's policies/"technology" are guaranteed to create injustice, which is why 99% of Scientologists eventually blow.

The court, in their infinite stupidity, accepted a Scientology-manned Arbitration, even though the cult's policies blatantly promote the doctrines that the COS is never wrong and anyone criticizing or suing is, by definition, an SP, a CRIMINAL and someone who HAS NO RIGHTS.

And someone who must be destroyed.

Put all that together and add in a half-gallon of KSW Scientologists manning the whole travesty and you have a manifestly malevolent mandate by the court that guarantees ALL OF THE RIGHTS OF THE PLAINTIVE WILL BE IGNORED, TRAMPLED OR WORSE.

The judge on this case is no different than the stupid IRS that ruled in favor of Scientology being a tax-exempt religion.

If there was a judge on any of those cases who was sworn supporter of the US Constitution, then this is what would have happened in those two instances:

1) The Arbitration would have been delegated to any one of the top-flight professional Arbitration-Mediation organizations that have lawyers and judges running the show according to tried-and-true, proven methodologies based on law. Thus, the Garcia's would not have been subjected to the absurd injustice of having to try to prove that Scientology is a treacherously lying criminal organization.

2) The IRS would have forced the COS to separate their "RELIGION" from the "SALES OF PRODUCTS". Thus, all pricelist donations (auditing/training) would not have been tax exempt. Likewise the properties (other than the "chapel" if it is fully dedicated to "worship") would have been liable for property taxes. And even more importantly than taxes, the COS would have been fully under the control of CONSUMER PROTECTION STATUTES AND AGENCIES. That last one would have opened the floodgates for lawyers eager to get their client's donations back for fraud. To wit, end of Scn as we know it!

I get it now.....Com EV = Arbitration = A =A =A = Fraud....I get it...scientology is showing the court how to know how to know by their actions what is FRAUD.
NO Clay Demo required..it is fully cleared now and scientology can demonstrate and use their fraud_ability
isn't that what the course case is all about?? Fraud...yes I thought so....thanks Pass....next checksheet target

 

[Free to shine]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

OK, here's the latest. I really, really hope the Judge starts to get the picture.

Scientology submits names of 500 members to federal court as ordered, but there’s a catch

The church has asked Whittemore to choose just one arbitrator from the list of 500 names as the Garcia’s choice, and then the church will reveal its choice for the second arbitrator, and so on.

So after Judge Whittemore pretty angrily put his foot down and said he’d select the entire three-person panel, Scientology is telling him he can only select one. And not by telephone.

We’ll be interested to see how the judge reacts to that.

http://tonyortega.org/2017/04/27/sc...00-members-to-federal-court-but-with-a-catch/

 

[Knows]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

I think Judge Whittemore may now get total certainty and understanding just what Scientology really is

Can't wait to see how he responds...

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

I think Judge Whittemore may now get total certainty and understanding just what Scientology really is

Can't wait to see how he responds...

I don't want to paste the picture/art work because it might violate copyrights but this pretty much encapsulates it all:

https://drawception.com/panel/drawing/nd993336/skunk-playing-poker/

 

[Free to shine]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

The Garcias respond via their attorney.

On Thursday we learned that Scientology’s attorneys did submit 500 names, but without contact information. They said that it would be better if the judge gives them a name from the list and then Scientology’s “International Justice Chief,” Mike Ellis, would actually reach out to the church member. And Scientology also asked the judge to select only one arbitrator, not all three. After Whittemore chooses the first arbitrator on behalf of the Garcias, the church wants to choose its own arbitrator, and those two panelists would choose the third.

Now, the Garcias have filed an answer with the help of their attorney Ted Babbitt, and you can probably predict the message: Scientology, were you not listening?

Full Documents: http://tonyortega.org/2017/04/29/ga...t-paying-attention-to-an-angry-federal-judge/

J. Swift • a day ago

In my view, the Church clearly wants to perform sec checks upon all potential arbitrators. The sec check would be a way to ensure that the three arbitrators had no hidden crimes or evil purposes to harm Scientology or David Miscavige by ruling against either. However, as this would violate the judge's order to not contact potential arbitrators and thus bias them, the Church has now contemptuously ignored the Court's terms and is seeking to enforce its terms for arbitrator selection upon the Court. This is Scientology's usual contempt of what it calls wog law.

The Church's defiance of a court order may well result in Judge Whittemore issuing to the Church an Order to Show Cause (OSC) as to why the stay should not be lifted and the matter sent to trial. The Judge could also rule that the Church is in contempt.

The matter narrows. Clearly there can now be seen both inequity and unconscionability in Scientology's arbitration procedure. Although courts treat secular and religious arbitration with a “presumption in favor of arbitration,” when an impasse is reached between the parties that favors one side due to inequity and unconscionability, the matter can be ordered to trial if it appears that an arbitration would violate fundamental public policy by denying one party justice. Scientology here wants to essentially treat arbitration as a contract of adhesion in which it has the deciding power to predetermine the outcome.

*****
The big question in American courts:

When does communal pressure from a religious community constitute a form of duress sufficient to invalidate an agreement to arbitrate before a religious panel?


Garcia has argued that the SP Doctrine and Disconnection are forms of duress sufficient to invalidate Scientology's arbitration, i.e. it is a high crime for a Scientologist to act or testify against the Church in a legal procedure. High crimes include:

Public statements against Scientology or Scientologists but not to Committees of Evidence duly convened.

Proposing, advising or voting for legislation or ordinances, rules or laws directed toward the suppression of Scientology.

Testifying hostilely before state or public inquiries into Scientology to suppress it.


Scientology itself precludes arbitration by design; there can be no possibility of arbitration in Scientology and that is why an arbitration has never occurred. Rather, the SP Declare, Disconnection, and Fair Game have been widely used and abused for decades to settle all matters in Scientology's favor. For this reason, Scientology is now in uncharted waters and must default to LRH's dictum:

"Somebody some day will say ‘this is illegal.’ By then be sure the orgs [Scientology organizations] say what is legal or not." - L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard, Communications Office Policy Letter, 4 January 1966, "LRH Relationship to Orgs"


The problem here is that the court is not obliged to accept this dictum as it is a de facto violation of public policy. The Garcia case may prove to be a pivotal matter in asking the IRS to reexamine Scientology's tax exemption under the doctrine of illegality.

The illegality doctrine acts as a check to assure that the federal government does not support through tax exemption an organization engaged in behavior the government is charged with preventing. As a district court noted in an oft-quoted passage, if it were not for the limits of the illegality doctrine, "...Fagan's school for pickpockets would qualify for a charitable trust." Green v. Connally, 330 F. Supp. 1150 (D.C.D.C. 1971) (three judge panel), aff'd per curiam sub nom., Coit v. Green, 404 U.S. 997 (1971). The government has an interest in not subsidizing criminal activity.

http://tonyortega.org/2017/04/29/ga...to-an-angry-federal-judge/#comment-3280506307

 

[ThetanExterior]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

When the Garcias were scientologists they agreed that any dispute should be handled by the scientology arbitration system, just as any scientologist would, because they believed that the scientology system of justice would be fair.

However, now that they are no longer scientologists and have presumably been declared as suppressive persons the scientology arbitration system obviously no longer applies to them.

Why can't the judge say that by labelling them SPs the CoS has effectively cancelled any past agreements and therefore this arbitration system no longer applies?

This so-called religion has kicked them out so it makes no sense to force them to be subjected to their justice system.

It seems to me that some common sense is needed here.

 

[Knows]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

When the Garcias were scientologists they agreed that any dispute should be handled by the scientology arbitration system, just as any scientologist would, because they believed that the scientology system of justice would be fair.

However, now that they are no longer scientologists and have presumably been declared as suppressive persons the scientology arbitration system obviously no longer applies to them.

Why can't the judge say that by labelling them SPs the CoS has effectively cancelled any past agreements and therefore this arbitration system no longer applies?

This so-called religion has kicked them out so it makes no sense to force them to be subjected to their justice system.

It seems to me that some common sense is needed here.

Well, you have not received the EP of the Wog Justice System....where NO Common sense is used.

 

[Free to shine]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

When the Garcias were scientologists they agreed that any dispute should be handled by the scientology arbitration system, just as any scientologist would, because they believed that the scientology system of justice would be fair.

However, now that they are no longer scientologists and have presumably been declared as suppressive persons the scientology arbitration system obviously no longer applies to them.

Why can't the judge say that by labelling them SPs the CoS has effectively cancelled any past agreements and therefore this arbitration system no longer applies?

This so-called religion has kicked them out so it makes no sense to force them to be subjected to their justice system.

It seems to me that some common sense is needed here.

Exactly!!!

I should have quoted Mr Babbit's response, it is great. The whole situation is bizarre and I personally think it could be a pivotal one if the Garcias can last the distance.

 

[Free to shine]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

The Judge is now going to select all three names!

Judge Whittemore puts his foot down: Scientology, cough up those phone numbers!

It didn’t take Tampa federal Judge James Whittemore very long to issue a new order after Scientology essentially thumbed its nose at his previous one, and wow, does he appear steamed.

In the new order, which we have for you below, the judge has given the Church of Scientology just ten days to fork over the telephone numbers and occupations left off of a list of 500 names the church had previously submitted under seal, which supposedly represent 500 Los Angeles-area church members in good standing.

http://tonyortega.org/2017/05/02/ju...own-scientology-cough-up-those-phone-numbers/


One of the comments:

John P. • 6 hours ago

First, the obligatory disclosure: I'm not a lawyer. And I don't play one on TV.

That said, in the tons of legal stuff I have to review for work at Global Capitalism HQ, since court cases can affect the value of our investments in a company, I've learned to pick out a few hints about what's going on when looking at documents.

I have come to suspect that judges are concerned about being overturned on appeal (something judges hate because it's personally embarrassing) when they put a lot of case citations and argument in a ruling on a relatively simple question.

Here, Whittemore issued a brutally terse one-page ruling (one page including the header and his signature). No legal argument, no footnotes to tons of case law justifying his reasoning. Just "do it my way or else!"

My impression is thus that the judge is extremely confident that his version of the procedure, where he gets to pick all three arbitrators, which conflicts with the cult's published procedure where each side picks one and the two then pick a third, will be upheld. And he has to know that the famously litigious cult is going to appeal, either after the final verdict or perhaps even with a writ of mandamus in the middle of this trial. If he were any less than supremely confident, he would have filled the ruling with all sorts of argumentation about why the Court has the authority to modify arbitration procedures.

http://tonyortega.org/2017/05/02/ju...gh-up-those-phone-numbers/#comment-3285330319

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

.

Scieno-Scenario: Judge Whittemore begins calling random names on the "LIST OF 500 SCIENTOLOGISTS IN GOOD STANDING" that the Church of Scientology submitted to the court. Scientologists receiving his phone call react in ways that a "wog" judge would not predict or have any way of understanding.

Sample responses when the judge calls Scientologists directly:

-- "A judge? Jeez, I don't know about any of this. You need to put this in writing..."

-- "This is very offline coming to me from a court. You need to put this particle on standard justice lines so my church can route it to me directly, per KSW."

-- "Let me get back to you after I check with my church to get r-factored, briefed and study the relevant LRH policies they tell me need to be applied."

-- "Let me get back to you after I contact my ethics officer and he tells me what I think about this."
​

After the judge fails on the first 499 phone calls to find any Scientologist who is willing to cooperate directly with him (without COS interference), Judge Whittemore dials Scientologist in good standing #500 and introduces himself and the reason for his phone call.

SCIENTOLOGIST #500
Did you say you are a judge?

JUDGE WHITTEMORE
Yes.

SCIENTOLOLGIST #500
Jeez, I don't know about any of this.
My religion has strict policies about
never talking to reporters and junk like that.

JUDGE WHITTEMORE
But I am not a reporter. I am
a federal judge. Do you understand?

SCIENTOLOGIST #500
Jeez, I don't know...
But, I don't understand why
you are calling me.
Isn't that verbal data?

JUDGE WHITTEMORE
Whattttt?

SCIENTOLOGIST #500
This whole thing sounds really squirelly.
You really need to put this in writing.

JUDGE WHITTEMORE
...and if I send it to you in writing, then are you
willing to participate as a reasonable and fair arbitrator?

SCIENTOLOGIST
I am willing to be fair--but I am
definitely not going to go into
agreement with being reasonable.

JUDGE WHITTEMORE
Whattttttt? I don't get it.
Certainly Scientology must want
its members to be reasonable, don't they?

SCIENTOLOGIST #500
Reasonable or not reasonable,
I just can't discuss any of this on
the phone with you.

JUDGE WHITTEMORE
Can you at least tell me the reason?

SCIENTOLOGIST #500
Okay, it's because Ron states in scripture
that "Telephones are psychotic".

JUDGE WHITTEMORE
OMG! LOL!


​

The judge's final reaction is what what Scientologists call a "major cognition" and "end phenomena". The "ability attained" at such moments is the ability to be "clear" headed enough to get as far away from these homo novi as humanly possible.

 

[Gib]

Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

.

SCIENTOLOGIST #500
Okay, it's because Ron states in scripture
that "Telephones are psychotic".

​

actually, as you know, the more fuller quote is telephones are psychotic because they have no memory. I read a comment by J Swift over at Tony O blog that got me thinking: ( http://tonyortega.org/2017/05/02/ju...y-cough-up-those-phone-numbers/#disqus_thread )

J. Swift • 8 hours ago

[FONT=&amp]Will the Church tell Judge Whittemore that the 500 Scientologists do not have telephones because telephones, per L. Ron Hubbard, are psychotic and have no memory? RTC President Warren McShane claimed that David Miscavige did not use a telephone very often and probably no longer had a cell phone. McShane told Ray Jeffrey this during deposition in Rathbun v. Miscavige et. al.:

...RJ: When David Miscavige is going about his duties and he is making phone calls, is there some practice that he conferences you in on all of his phone calls?

WM: Well, one, he rarely makes phone calls, and it depends upon what the topic is when he does. If it relates to my activities, I would be on the phone call.

RJ: Okay. I didn't ask a very good question. If -- I'm trying to find out, is there any sort of standard protocol that anytime David Miscavige is on the telephone, Warren McShane is on there with him? There's nothing like that, is there?

WM: There's no standard protocol, no.

RJ: Okay.

WM: It depends on what the topic is of the phone call.

RJ: It would be as-needed?

WM: Yes, but like I explained, it's very rare. He (Captain Miscavige) doesn't use the phone.

RJ: And your basis for saying that is what?

WM: My 30 years experience working with him.

RJ: Well, if he spends 12 hours in a day outside your presence, how do you know he doesn't just wait to have phone calls when he's in -- in private?

WM: Because phone calls, per our scripture, are not a standard form of communication. Like Mr. Hubbard says, phones are psychotic, they have no memory, so we don't use them very often...

WJ: And by the way, what kind of cell phones and Blackberries and that sort of thing does David Miscavige have?

WM: He's got a Blackberry. He used to have a cell phone. I don't think he has a cell phone anymore....​

[/FONT]

And here is hubbard's rhetoric and even Ray Jefferies fell for it to a certain degree.

Of course phones do not have memory, they are just walkie talkies. Who is supposed to have memories are each person talking to each other and remembering the conversation, phones have nothing to do with it, LOL

Of course the ultimate rhetoric is that clears have perfect recall of this life and OT's have perfect recall of the whole track.