Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration impossible

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Just in case it isn't obvious, phones nowadays have lots of memory and are quite good at recording and transmitting just about anything - unless you have something to hide.
_____
LRH ED 255 INT 14 Nov. 1974

But the main thing is to learn to live without it. A staff, with phones handy, gets used to using them and the more they use them, the more they use them.

HCOPL 15 Nov. 1974
As the telephone has no memory it is psychotic.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Just in case it isn't obvious, phones nowadays have lots of memory and are quite good at recording and transmitting just about anything - unless you have something to hide.
_____
LRH ED 255 INT 14 Nov. 1974

But the main thing is to learn to live without it. A staff, with phones handy, gets used to using them and the more they use them, the more they use them.

HCOPL 15 Nov. 1974
As the telephone has no memory it is psychotic.

phones today don't record the conversation, they just will keep in memory who you talked to.
 
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

phones today don't record the conversation, they just will keep in memory who you talked to.
That's why the texts from DM to Rinder are so damning. Mimsey
 

ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

My best guess on what happens next:

The Garcias mysteriously call off the case, blame the lawyers, insist no settlement has been made and start dissing ex-scientologist critics.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

phones today don't record the conversation, they just will keep in memory who you talked to.

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Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

The Judge is now going to select all three names!

Judge Whittemore puts his foot down: Scientology, cough up those phone numbers!

I have a feeling that Co$ really doesn't want to judge to see how many people on that list of 500 are Scn staff members (which violates standard arbitration rules about the arbitrator having to be independent from either party), or don't really exist.

And they REALLY don't want to risk somebody on that list being secretly on the edge of leaving Scientology, and willing to make a REALLY grand exit by ruling in the Garcias' favor.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

.

I have a feeling that Co$ really doesn't want to judge to see how many people on that list of 500 are Scn staff members (which violates standard arbitration rules about the arbitrator having to be independent from either party), or don't really exist.

And they REALLY don't want to risk somebody on that list being secretly on the edge of leaving Scientology, and willing to make a REALLY grand exit by ruling in the Garcias' favor.


Yes!

Add to that, this dirty little cult secret. . .

Even if any of the 500 candidates are NOT a staff member:

* Most are probably "Field Staff Members" (another kind of staff member)

* Even if they aren't an org staff member or a field staff member, they are still nonetheless on the cult's COMMAND CHANNEL. Ergo, they still have seniors who can order them what to do (e.g. "You are ordered to report to Flag for handling", "There is a mandatory briefing on Friday", "You have been summoned to a Court of Ethics today at 8pm", et al).

* Sea Org members are always senior in rank to non-sea org staff and public. That's why it's always quite appropriate for an elite sea org PR EXEC attending a celebrity's gala wedding at an Italian castle to get in a low-ranking public Scientologist's face and scream (in a totally in-PR kind of way): "YOU DON'T HAVE THE FUCKING RANK TO ASK THAT QUESTION!!!"​


The cosmic joke in Scientology "arbitrating" a refund cycle with a blown and declared SP is that there is WRITTEN CHURCH DOCTRINE & SCRIPTURE that explicitly states, requires in fact, that SPs:

--have no rights.

--should be tricked.

--should be lied to.

--should have their money/assets stolen.

--should be "shattered", "destroyed" and "utterly ruined" by any means.

It's not even hidden. It's right there in the green OEC volumes and also part of every Ethics Officer's, MAA's and even the International "Justice" Chief's hat pack. Yet, the US court system pretends that somehow, magically, Scientologists are going to ignore their Commodore's orders and that "justice" will somehow prevail.

Not only is there NO CHANCE that justice can ever prevail when Scientologists are adjudicating against an SP, but it is a foregone conclusion and requirement that Scientologists ensure that INJUSTICE PREVAILS in any such encounter.

It's one of those "blind spots" that the framers of the US Constitution never quite anticipated. Insane cults who lie, cheat, steal and then look you in the eye (without blinking) and give you a huge grin while they recount their theta wins of how they "got Justice in" on this planet.

It's important for Scientologists to always add "on this planet"--in case federal judges are unsure which part of the universe these Operating Thetans are "operating" in.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

And they REALLY don't want to risk somebody on that list being secretly on the edge of leaving Scientology, and willing to make a REALLY grand exit by ruling in the Garcias' favor.
From what little contact I have with any Scientologists anymore, my guesstimate
is that 70-80% of all of them are out and flying under the radar (UTR) nowadays.

Big risk of a mid-air collision and fatalities with a list of 500 like this. :whistling:
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

From what little contact I have with any Scientologists anymore, my guesstimate
is that 70-80% of all of them are out and flying under the radar (UTR) nowadays.

Big risk of a mid-air collision and fatalities with a list of 500 like this. :whistling:

I'm kind of mocking up in my mind, Judge calls a person on the list, says he wants to know if you will be a arbitrator for a internal dispute involving money and fraud with the CSI. Person says nope, I quit the organization. Judge calls another, same sort of answer, Judge gets thru the list and calls CSI and says he needs another 500 names and contact info as everybody on the first list quit. :happydance:
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

I'm kind of mocking up in my mind, Judge calls a person on the list, says he wants to know if you will be a arbitrator for a internal dispute involving money and fraud with the CSI. Person says nope, I quit the organization. Judge calls another, same sort of answer, Judge gets thru the list and calls CSI and says he needs another 500 names and contact info as everybody on the first list quit. :happydance:

Even better would be if the person honestly tells the Judge "Nope. If I'm an arbitrator and I rule against the Church, I will be expelled and no Scientologist will be allowed to talk to me. No Scientologist in good standing can be a fair arbitrator, and expect to remain in good standing".

A few of those, and the judge has valid cause to throw out the arbitration clause.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

I have a feeling that Co$ really doesn't want to judge to see how many people on that list of 500 are Scn staff members (which violates standard arbitration rules about the arbitrator having to be independent from either party), or don't really exist.

And they REALLY don't want to risk somebody on that list being secretly on the edge of leaving Scientology, and willing to make a REALLY grand exit by ruling in the Garcias' favor.

"So you are just a Scientology public person, not on staff, but you're also a Field Staff Member being paid by the Church to get people to buy services - who can still remain neutral in this arbitration?"


 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

From what little contact I have with any Scientologists anymore, my guesstimate
is that 70-80% of all of them are out and flying under the radar (UTR) nowadays.

Big risk of a mid-air collision and fatalities with a list of 500 like this. :whistling:

Warning: Confirmation bias ahead

That could support a number of statistics. 100,000 at peak x (70to80%) =20-30k members still imprisoned.

Fuel tank mostly full of provable bullshit methane gas such as Idle Morgues have caused the greatest expansion ever.
In flight refueling taking place with the real truth of collapsing bridge

impending stinky mid air explosion caused by Internet Expanding Data (IED)

final result: freedom across the lands as members make use of the existing safey net, while the Sea Org is lost at sea, rudderless, commandeered by a tiny psychopath screaming as the remaining mutiny crew pile into the lifeboats.

zzzzzzzzzzzzz no signal...command intention line apparently lost.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

That could support a number of statistics. 100,000 at peak x (70to80%) =20-30k members still imprisoned.
Just to be clear, my thought was that there are about 18-20,000 "still in" currently, a number that's been bandied
about for a few years and I agree with, and of those 70-80% of public are actually out and flying UTR. Just not participating
any longer but keeping up appearances because of family, children in, career, avoiding troubles, bankruptcy, age and
a looming retirement, etc.

Now it's been brought up that there's actually NEVER been a real arbitration delivered by the COS. And that would certainly
be a shocker, if true.

Looking thought my extensive historical photographic archives, I ran across a photo of a single fair and impartial arbitration
that was done in the late sixties. It consisted of a tribunal of then active members and delivered a fair and standard resolution,
I'm sure. I don't know what the outcome was . . . but I can only guess.


Arbitration.jpg
:wink2:
 
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Quote Originally Posted by Gib View Post

I'm kind of mocking up in my mind, Judge calls a person on the list, says he wants to know if you will be a arbitrator for a internal dispute involving money and fraud with the CSI. Person says nope, I quit the organization. Judge calls another, same sort of answer, Judge gets thru the list and calls CSI and says he needs another 500 names and contact info as everybody on the first list quit.
Even better would be if the person honestly tells the Judge "Nope. If I'm an arbitrator and I rule against the Church, I will be expelled and no Scientologist will be allowed to talk to me. No Scientologist in good standing can be a fair arbitrator, and expect to remain in good standing".

A few of those, and the judge has valid cause to throw out the arbitration clause.

I seriously doubt the judge will call anybody. It will be the court staff that will do the work, and since the addresses and occupations are to be provided by the COS, it will likely be a mailing with a request to respond, much like any jury summons to impanel a jury. But the lack of response, or refusals to participate, followed up by phone calls from the curious court staff will paint the picture you want in the judges mind when he gets the feedback from his staff.

I think, however, the church will balk yet again for this reason - they will produce LRH Policy prohibiting the release of Church mailing lists, and say his order violates their religious beliefs.

Mimsey
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Latest update.

In short, scientology want to send out a letter to possible candidates from MIKE ELLIS (IJC) asking them if they would participate.
OMFG.

I suppose the idea that it comes from him is supposed to stop people immediately ringing OSA (which of course they will) so they don't get into legal trouble though IMO there is no way they wouldn't be 'briefed' anyway, no way. "Meet me at this street at midnight and I'll brief you". Oh yes, that happens. This is so totally crazy I can imagine the frenzy it is creating to try and find a way to "handle" this terrible emergency. The bolded sentence below is telling them what to say per policy! The letter is giving scientologists protection from their own organisation's other policies!! I really hope the Judge understands the complexities of this. Also the fact that NO scientologist "in good standing" is EVER going to do anything other than what they are told and expected to do - follow policy.

Even though the judge has already reacted angrily at the notion, Pope once again suggests that Judge Whittemore employ a prophylactic measure in order to protect the sanctity of Scientology from becoming infected. He’s written up a cute letter that the court could send out as if it were coming from Scientology’s International Justice Chief, Mike Ellis.

“I am writing to inquire whether you would be willing and able to participate in a religious arbitration concerning a dispute between two former Scientologists and several Scientology churches concerning claims made by the former for refunds of donations made to such churches,” begins the letter, which we have for you in full below.

Will the judge go for it? Well, he’s going to need to do something about nutty Scientologists freaking out when they get a call from a federal court. But it’s hard to see this judge submitting to Scientology’s suggestions after the heartburn he’s clearly already experienced in this case.

From the motion:

Defendants have expressed to the Court their concerns that direct contact to Scientology parishioners from a civil court about Scientology justice proceedings may cause alarm of such individuals, who did not assume their identities and contact information would be disclosed to a court without notice, as well as about the practical problems that may arise from this process. It also raises ecclesiastical questions, because parishioners may raise questions about such contacts with appropriate Church officials. Indeed, it is possible parishioners may decline to discuss the matter until contacting such persons.

To see the proposed letter: http://tonyortega.org/2017/06/03/sc...ge-calling-our-members-directly-are-you-nuts/
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Some comments:

Juicer77 • 3 hours ago

Can't even begin to guess how the good judge will react... Except a letter from the defendants asking their parishioners to contact the International Justice Chief AFTER THE JUDGE EXPRESSLY SAID THIS IS FORBIDDEN is a truly dumb move. In addition, imagine the fear when any $cientologist sees the phrase International Justice Chief. They know only too well that you only ever talk to the IJC (ha) when you're in seriously big trouble.
The Judge needs to step very carefully here. Lots of legal mines ahead but if he perseveres and is smart and cool-headed, this could end very well for the Garcias and future plaintiffs in similar cases.
http://tonyortega.org/2017/06/03/sc...ers-directly-are-you-nuts/#comment-3338493747

PickAnotherID • 3 hours ago

$cientology wants a letter sent to "parishioners" asking them to contact IJC Mike Ellis regarding their availability for an arbitration panel?? And then he, "...will instruct the arbitrators of the requirement of applying Scientology policy to the dispute in a neutral and fair manner, as required."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahaha...<gasp>...<choke>...<gasp>,,,<air>...<need air="">

I'm not even close to being a lawyer, but even I can see $cientology is telling Judge Whittemore, "We want to pick and instruct the arbitors, so we get the results we want."

Judge Whittemore declaring, on the record, $cientology arbitration is a sham in 5...4...3...2...1...
http://tonyortega.org/2017/06/03/sc...ers-directly-are-you-nuts/#comment-3338473799

MarcabExpat chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03 • 43 minutes ago

Chuck, it could turn out this way, or it could turn out that "putting the ethics/arbitration system into the legal process" could be a great thing. If the Garcias win this case, it will set a precedent that says the arbitration system is officially a sham, and allow thousands of people to sue for refunds without having to face that system. It's a legal gamble, but it's worth it.


chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03 MarcabExpat • 17 minutes ago

Yea. And it is a great thing that the judge is doing what he's doing, that is unprecedented in Scientology's "legal" history for a judge to try to enforce secular legal steps back on Scientology's supposedly solely secular legal agreements, and totally agree this looks fruitful.
http://tonyortega.org/2017/06/03/sc...ers-directly-are-you-nuts/#comment-3338613620
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

This notification that the Church wants to send out to all the potential arbitrators appears to be attempting to address the Catch-22 presented by the High Crime of bringing a civil suit against the Church. Agreeing to participate as an arbitrator without “calling the matter” to the IJC could be used as grounds for an SP Declare. Of course, by calling the matter to the IJC it is implied that you will do whatever the IJC tells you to do. Just informing the IJC that you are going to be an arbitrator doesn’t cut it. Also, the list of crimes and high crimes is loaded with other snares that can be arbitrarily interpreted by the Church as grounds for an SP Declare or loss of good standing. Ergo, the letter is stating that the IJC will inform the potential arbitrator of Church policy, which I assume would delicately include this list of Crimes and High Crimes. In other words, rule against the Church and you are screwed.

Also, if a Scientologist tells the court that they are no longer a Scientologist then that can be taken as publicly departing Scientology which is in itself a high crime.

So these people can’t agree to participating in the civil suit or deny being Scientologists without coordinating with the IJC.

_____
https://www.holysmoke.org/cos/crime-syndicate-ethics.html

HIGH CRIMES of the Church of Scientology

162) Bringing civil suit against any Scientology organization or Scientologist, including the nopayment of bills or failure to refund, without first calling the matter to the attention of the International Justice Chief and receiving a reply.

230) It is a high crime to publicy depart Scientology.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

Latest update.

In short, scientology want to send out a letter to possible candidates from MIKE ELLIS (IJC) asking them if they would participate.
OMFG.

I suppose the idea that it comes from him is supposed to stop people immediately ringing OSA (which of course they will) so they don't get into legal trouble though IMO there is no way they wouldn't be 'briefed' anyway, no way. "Meet me at this street at midnight and I'll brief you". Oh yes, that happens. This is so totally crazy I can imagine the frenzy it is creating to try and find a way to "handle" this terrible emergency. The bolded sentence below is telling them what to say per policy! The letter is giving scientologists protection from their own organisation's other policies!! I really hope the Judge understands the complexities of this. Also the fact that NO scientologist "in good standing" is EVER going to do anything other than what they are told and expected to do - follow policy.



From the motion:
Even though the judge has already reacted angrily at the notion, Pope once again suggests that Judge Whittemore employ a prophylactic measure in order to protect the sanctity of Scientology from becoming infected. He’s written up a cute letter that the court could send out as if it were coming from Scientology’s International Justice Chief, Mike Ellis.

I am writing to inquire whether you would be willing and able to participate in a religious arbitration concerning a dispute between two former Scientologists and several Scientology churches concerning claims made by the former for refunds of donations made to such churches,” begins the letter, which we have for you in full below.

Will the judge go for it? Well, he’s going to need to do something about nutty Scientologists freaking out when they get a call from a federal court. But it’s hard to see this judge submitting to Scientology’s suggestions after the heartburn he’s clearly already experienced in this case.

If this is truly a "religious arbitration" any Scientologists in Good Standing (who wish to remain so) are compelled to follow their "religious scriptures" which clearly instruct on the proper way to handle SP's.

If the arbitrators were truly objective and concluded the Garcia's got defrauded and ruled in their favor they'd be risking the loss of their family, friends, and eternity. From a Scientological point of view this is NOT like having a gun put to your head. It is much worse. If you get shot then you've suffered a complete loss of just this present lifetime. But IJC can threaten your eternity, endless trillions of years. :omg:

I'm sure that that sounds silly to most, but many Scientologists truly believe that, or at least believe there is a possibility that it is true, and are unwilling to call the bluff of the CoS and risk losing the bet with their eternity at stake.

I'm wondering (from a legal point of view) if an arbitrator appears to be favoring the Garcia's during the proceedings if the CoS can SP Declare him mid way through the arbitration, using some other reason having nothing to do with the current arbitration. And then they'd have to replace that arbitrator with one in Good Standing. It would certainly send a chilling message to the remaining arbitrators; it would be the equivalent of putting a head on a pike.

It sounds crazy, I know. But I wouldn't be it past the CoS to attempt such a thing. There is a LOT at stake here for CoS; this isn't a minor insignificant case. It's a test case actually, and if the Garcia's win and collect all their money the CoS defrauded them out of there will be a long line of other EX'es blowing up the phone lines of the attorney the next morning.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

If this is truly a "religious arbitration" any Scientologists in Good Standing (who wish to remain so) are compelled to follow their "religious scriptures" which clearly instruct on the proper way to handle SP's.

If the arbitrators were truly objective and concluded the Garcia's got defrauded and ruled in their favor they'd be risking the loss of their family, friends, and eternity. From a Scientological point of view this is NOT like having a gun put to your head. It is much worse. If you get shot then you've suffered a complete loss of just this present lifetime. But IJC can threaten your eternity, endless trillions of years. :omg:

I'm sure that that sounds silly to most, but many Scientologists truly believe that, or at least believe there is a possibility that it is true, and are unwilling to call the bluff of the CoS and risk losing the bet with their eternity at stake.

I'm wondering (from a legal point of view) if an arbitrator appears to be favoring the Garcia's during the proceedings if the CoS can SP Declare him mid way through the arbitration, using some other reason having nothing to do with the current arbitration. And then they'd have to replace that arbitrator with one in Good Standing. It would certainly send a chilling message to the remaining arbitrators; it would be the equivalent of putting a head on a pike.

The judge already indicated that the Church was not to communicate or interfere with potential arbitrators so I'd think this would apply for arbitrators for whom all parties have agreed. An SP Declare would constitute interference, yes?

I am curious what kind of restraint the court might put on the IJC if they permit potential or active arbitrators to communicate with the IJC. Would these be conducted like a deposition, with transcripts and representation? If the IJC refers to a policy will they be required to provide those policies to the court, etc.?

If anything, this might actually create a unique situation where for a period of time it is impossible for the Church to declare someone - although, I'm sure after the case is concluded one way or the other the Church would have the last word on the arbitrator's performance.

Like the Wollersheim case this may be another one of those deals where the Church manipulated themselves into a corner by making things too mafia-esque. Maybe if the Church provided full disclosure before people signed these arbitration agreements they would be upheld but do they tell people exactly what it means, for example, to be a "member in good standing" or the nature of coercion arbitrators may be exposed to or how these things can be arbitrarily changed without notification to or agreement of the signer?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Re: Garcias back in court in fraud lawsuit after Scientology makes arbitration imposs

.

I would be profoundly shocked if this sham arbitration procedure (despite the Judge's best efforts) ever rendered a positive outcome for the Garcias.

The minutiae of how prospective arbitrators/mediators are selected and legally noticed is very unlikely to have much meaning, simply because:

1. ALL ARBITRATORS WILL BE SCIENTOLOGISTS IN GOOD STANDING.

2. SCIENTOLOGISTS-IN-GOOD-STANDING WILL ALWAYS 100% RULE IN FAVOR OF THE ETHICAL COS AS OPPOSED TO THE EVIL SPs THAT ARE ATTACKING THEM.

3. SCIENTOLOGISTS-IN-GOOD-STANDING WHO WOULDN'T RULE IN FAVOR OF THE COS 100% OF THE TIME WOULD NO LONGER BE IN-GOOD-STANDING AND THEREFORE UNQUALIFIED TO BE AN ARBITRATOR.
 
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