Gary Lerner has left the Church of Scientology

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
Tons, starting with the crimes he blames solely on DM which in fact originated with LRH. I'm not going to do the work for you. The evidence is all over the Interwebs, all you need is Google and a bit of spare time.

"I'm not going to do the work for you" :hysterical: Uh I'm not exactly new here. I was kind of looking for what you were talking about as it was a vague statement. I've read the same stuff everybody else has. But what I see over there is consistent with politics and other religions. People filter out what they want to and accept what they want. Truth unfortunately is often subjective and some are more willing to accept faults in others than others are. I'm not trying to justify anybody's actions I'm just stating the fact that people come to different conclusions given the same information.


Agreed - I started out as a huge Marty fan. I admired him for having the cojones to stand up to the Church. But the more I read, the more I realized what he was trying to do: Whitewash Hubbard by shifting the blame for the Church's crimes to DM. Marty's media interviews only talked about David Miscavige. One wonders what would have happened if they asked Marty about LRH and then did a bit of follow-up research. Lucky for Marty, they didn't. But I'm sure that will change soon... like my old man used to say, shit always floats to the top.

Sure I agree he doesn't want to "confront" what a sack of shit the guy was but this is a very tricky cult with bits of truth sprinkled around. It's very difficult to sort out what scn really is and people will come to their own conclusions at their own pace and some will probably hang on for the rest of their lives. Unfortunately you can't mandate beliefs.

With all due respect, if a person still believes in Hubbard and Scientology, that person is still "in."

Not in my opinion. David Miscavige is a criminal psychotic posing as "man's best friend" even though elron started all this shit. Anyone who walks away from further support of this lunatic and makes it public is helping putting an end to this clown and doing the world a favor. People can sort out their beliefs later and will be in a situation where they are no longer disciplined for looking.

For me, the first big hint was his position on Lisa McPherson. He doesn't believe she died because she got the Introspection Rundown instead of proper medical and psychological care. He believes she died because DM altered the tech. This is all on his blog.

Yeah I agree the guy is deluded. But from his viewpoint he's probably seen Intro RDs that went ok. And by ok I mean somebody who seemed happy with it and wasn't about to jump out of a window. I've done tons of auditing and have no illusions about it making clears or ots but you can finish an action and feel fine or even good about it or you can feel psychotic and suicidal. I've had all of the above. Anyone who thinks auditing or other scio actions do NOTHING is misinformed. It just doesn't do what's claimed.

Does he have the intention to create an organization as criminal as the Co$? Marty believes in LRH's tech, which is the source of most of Co$'s criminality. You can't create a proper Scientology organization WITHOUT the criminality. It's written into the tech, and KSW says the tech is infallible and unalterable.

I've seen this dozens of times with auditors. One auditor would try to beat the crap out of you "following tech to the letter" and another wouldn't with the exact same references and supervision. It came down to the nature of the individual. The interpretation of "tech" is just as subjective as the interpretation of any other information. They try to act like it's not but it is.

But in the end MR won't have the opportunity to have a reign of terror because scn is done. The cat is out of the bag and the world is saying a big "thanks but no thanks". There is no mechanism to remove DM, and MR has no entitlement to the funds, trademarks or resources of the church. All MR can do is start his own FZ branch and I wouldn't hold my breath for that to become a huge hit.

I hope you are right. In my opinion, as long as Marty still offers his services, the Cult of Scientology still exists.

I wish this crap could be erased from planet Earth but barring nuclear war or an asteroid impact I don't see that happening.

P.S. The "Much Love" thing is pretty weird. Former members will see that as phony affection so don't expect that to go over too well here.
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
The "Much Love" thing is pretty weird. Former members will see that as phony affection so don't expect that to go over too well here.

Yes, someone else commented on it. I use it as the sig on my blog (which is aimed primarily at non-Scientologists). It always cracked me up, the way LRH signed some of his directives "Love, Ron: and the way the faithful adopted that to ML. I especially liked getting comms from people who weren't happy with me signed "ML". This was in a WISE environment, by the way. So I picked it up because it makes me smile. I think of it as satire. But in deference to you, Thrak...

Sincerely yours,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
In my experience it is far more likely that they would not have left the Church of Scientology at all if they didn't have Marty's shack to go to. For years a major deterrent for people who contemplated leaving the COS was that they would be forever deprived of the "tech" and lose their "spiritual eternity." You may laugh, but that is what they believed and what kept them in the COS. I personally knew a number of people who were unhappy with heavy regging, fending off Sea Org recruitment of their kids, etc. but wouldn't leave because they couldn't conceive practicing Scientology outside the Church.

In addition, prior to Marty's shack many people faced a life of true isolation and loneliness if the left the COS. All of their friends were Scientologists and had been for years. Their family members were Scientologists, who frequently couldn't be convinced to leave because: (a) they would be deprived of the tech and lose their spiritual eternities; and (b) they would deprived of their friends. Marty's shack gives them an community to go to so they won't be alone.

Marty's shack apparently gives them a community to go to that is more effective, welcoming or, to be frank, seductive. Perhaps in part because of attitudes like yours and, to be honest, mine in frequent past posts.

Bitter tasting medicine is not effective if you can't convince an adult to take it. Or if they are told, or the clear implication is, that they were morons.

/

Exactly this...!

James
 

Veda

Sponsor
But this is not new. There were always alternatives, especially in the last 30 years. There have been individuals and groups providing the "tech," and the camaraderie of like-minded people, for decades.

Marty has provided a place where LRH&LRH tech acolytes can go to comfortably stagnate, and to blame David Miscavige for "altering" the magnificent mental mouse-trap, built by their guru, LRH.

It reminds me of Ron's Orgs, with the exception that it applies Scientology PR tech (sometimes), and does not (usually) place on display some of its nuttier aspects.

Note that the most successful FZ group, to this day, is Ron's Orgs, and that Scientology does best as a cult.

So Marty is starting another cult - well, whoopee.

"There is nothing actually wrong with L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. It's a marketing problem."

The idea is that Miscavige has screwed up the "marketing" of Scientology. Once he's gone - and he will eventually go - the slick PR and slick "ARC"-types will take over, and these are already visible here and there, in both the $cientology and FZ/Indie Scientology.
 

Carmel

Crusader
Marty only arrived and provided his shack, less than a year ago. A year ago, ESMB had already been in full swing for over two and a half years, and the Freezone had been in full swing for decades.

As has been pointed out, people could get Scn tech in the Freezone, and a year ago, you could just about say that most would have more friends "out" than "in"........For those who didn't, at least there were many of like mind to befriend.

I'd agree though, that Marty's shack is indeed seductive, and that's one of the things I most object to. "This CofS or this CofS?" - The more pleasant option prolongs and camouflages the agony, and would only spread it to others......It does nothing to help one face it nor get rid of it. With the more pleasant option, the lies persist, and those running the show ensure that they do............That isn't doing anyone a favour.

I agree with "gradients" when it comes to helping people see and get out. It doesn't help if and when ya blow someone off with a bombardment of info, off the bat. It usually results in them rejecting everything and anything you have to say - By the same token though, it's harmful to pretend that all is well when it is not, and to mislead or hide the lies which keep people trapped.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
"I'm not going to do the work for you" :hysterical: Uh I'm not exactly new here. I was kind of looking for what you were talking about as it was a vague statement. I've read the same stuff everybody else has. But what I see over there is consistent with politics and other religions. People filter out what they want to and accept what they want. Truth unfortunately is often subjective and some are more willing to accept faults in others than others are. I'm not trying to justify anybody's actions I'm just stating the fact that people come to different conclusions given the same information.

Pretty much what I was going to say, though with the addition that we all start from different places and experience different things while we're in Scn, thus the outcomes are not invariant.

In general, it seems those technically trained are less likely to fully leave Scn. I've not done any statistics on this, mind you, it's just my observation over the last decade or so.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
One HUGE difference between Marty's Shack and Davy's Crack is that as far as I know Marty suggests no prohibition on freely reading the Internet. The M&Ms on his blog might be heavily pushing the party line, with a few dissenters here and there, but no-one is saying not to explore for oneself.

So a new M&M might not directly seek out natterboards such as ours, but Googling almost any term to do with Scn is likely to end up with hits on OCMB, ESMB, and various websites of different flavours running the whole gamut from Hubbard sycophant to rabid critic. Eventually they will start reaching outside the comforting velvet-lined box they are hiding in. :)

Paul
 

smartone

My Own Boss
''When I was told about this blog I was finally given proof. Not just my feelings but PROOF about all of the CRAP that David Miscavage has unleashed on this planet. I won’t tirade over all of it now. BUT little Squirrel needs to know that I have “spotted” you and you really really have no concept about what a pissed off OT can do for you. You’ve fucked with my Bridge and Whole Track and you are gonna pay dearly for that MASSIVE OVERT!''


I'm wondering just what can an OT do for DM :whistling:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
''When I was told about this blog I was finally given proof. Not just my feelings but PROOF about all of the CRAP that David Miscavage has unleashed on this planet. I won’t tirade over all of it now. BUT little Squirrel needs to know that I have “spotted” you and you really really have no concept about what a pissed off OT can do for you. You’ve fucked with my Bridge and Whole Track and you are gonna pay dearly for that MASSIVE OVERT!''


I'm wondering just what can an OT do for DM :whistling:


lolololololololololol!

ANSWER: For those occasions where DM is traveling and cannot get to his workout room, an OT can use postulates to mock themselves up as a punching bag.
 

J. Swift

Patron with Honors
1. Momentum is everything. People are leaving CoS in droves. IMO, CoS senior management is in a panic because the situation has gotten completely out of control online and in the media. The situation inside of CoS appears to be spiraling out of control. Marty, Mike, and the Indies are carrying the momentum. For me it's, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way!" The Indies are leading and are scoring massive PR hits on DM and OSA. I am always in favor of supporting winning momentum. That is why I like Anonymous as well as the Indies. I like the "Big Tent" approach here.

2. CoS cannot exist as The Church of IAS Regging & Sec Checking indefinitely. DM can only beat SO and his OT's before they collapse or blow and start posting online.

2A. DM blinked.

3. Marty's blog can be read by everyone and criticized by everyone. He is not hiding his blog. It is out in plain sight. He is entitled to have his POV, rules, and a sense of decorum on his board.

4. The Independents should practice and enjoy Scientology. So should CoS Scientologists. My argument is that the truth about Hubbard is the truth about Hubbard. Those two things can co-exist. Hubbard's conduct does not falsify the practice Scientology. This is where Scientologists are mistaken: One does not have to lie about LRH in order to practice Scientology.

5. What I am saying to the Independents is that the truth about LRH can be told, and, Scientology can still be practiced. The Independents harm their own cause when they ignore, deny, or lie about Hubbard.

6. Scientologists who want to practice need to man up and say, "Yeah, Hubbard was a bastard who wrote this marvelous Tech. Go figure!" Anything else is a lie.

7. Start with LRH. Start telling the truth about LRH and then start telling the truth about COB, CoS, the Ideal Orgs, etc and then one realizes that the truth is more important than telling lies to protect the group or to protect LRH. LRH is dead. His work must stand or fall on its own.

8. If people need to lie to disseminate Scientology, then Scientology is a lie.

9. Scientologists in general do not know what to do with Hubbard so they whitewash him or lie about him. What I would do is to present Hubbard as an American Original, warts and all. History is populated by accomplished bastards. Scientologists have to take the bad with the good when it comes to Hubbard. Many already have.

10. LRH died in 1986. DM is the guy in charge now and is therefore responsible for all of the evil in CoS. DM has a choice: He does not have to enforce Disconnection. He does not have to destroy people. He can eliminate the RPF with the stroke of a pen.

11. TPark, a thetan is senior to KSW. Correct? And yes, if you are in LA, let's meet to show that we are both gentlemen.

/////
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
What I would do is to present Hubbard as an American Original

But he isn't. Hubbard would like us to THINK he's an original, but may parts of the tech were adopted from somewhere else. Nothing wrong with that - but Hubbard presents this stuff as his own, with his "Until now, Mankind has never been able to discover an answer" song-and-dance.

How about presenting Hubbard as an American Bullshit Artist?

DM has a choice: He does not have to enforce Disconnection. He does not have to destroy people. He can eliminate the RPF with the stroke of a pen.

If he believes in LRH technology and KSW, then no, he does not have a choice. Per Hubbard, Hubbard's policies are unalterable. Everyone jumps on DM for squirreling the tech. Wouldn't eliminating the RPF and striking out the "or disconnect" part of "handle or disconnect" be squirreling LRH's tech?

ML,
Caliwog
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
If he believes in LRH technology and KSW, then no, he does not have a choice. Per Hubbard, Hubbard's policies are unalterable. Everyone jumps on DM for squirreling the tech. Wouldn't eliminating the RPF and striking out the "or disconnect" part of "handle or disconnect" be squirreling LRH's tech?

ML,
Caliwog

I've seen nothing to suggest that a) dm is a scientologist or that b) lrh's work is unalterable. He doesn't get auditing, he doesn't take courses and he's altered tech before so he can do whatever he wants and he's running things exactly the way he wants to. There are so many contradictory references in scn that there is a huge amount leeway to interpret things. If he were a decent human being people would be able to tell I assure you.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
1. Momentum is everything. People are leaving CoS in droves. IMO, CoS senior management is in a panic because the situation has gotten completely out of control online and in the media. The situation inside of CoS appears to be spiraling out of control. Marty, Mike, and the Indies are carrying the momentum. For me it's, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way!" The Indies are leading and are scoring massive PR hits on DM and OSA. I am always in favor of supporting winning momentum. That is why I like Anonymous as well as the Indies. I like the "Big Tent" approach here.

2. CoS cannot exist as The Church of IAS Regging & Sec Checking indefinitely. DM can only beat SO and his OT's before they collapse or blow and start posting online.

2A. DM blinked.

3. Marty's blog can be read by everyone and criticized by everyone. He is not hiding his blog. It is out in plain sight. He is entitled to have his POV, rules, and a sense of decorum on his board.

4. The Independents should practice and enjoy Scientology. So should CoS Scientologists. My argument is that the truth about Hubbard is the truth about Hubbard. Those two things can co-exist. Hubbard's conduct does not falsify the practice Scientology. This is where Scientologists are mistaken: One does not have to lie about LRH in order to practice Scientology.

5. What I am saying to the Independents is that the truth about LRH can be told, and, Scientology can still be practiced. The Independents harm their own cause when they ignore, deny, or lie about Hubbard.

6. Scientologists who want to practice need to man up and say, "Yeah, Hubbard was a bastard who wrote this marvelous Tech. Go figure!" Anything else is a lie.

7. Start with LRH. Start telling the truth about LRH and then start telling the truth about COB, CoS, the Ideal Orgs, etc and then one realizes that the truth is more important than telling lies to protect the group or to protect LRH. LRH is dead. His work must stand or fall on its own.

8. If people need to lie to disseminate Scientology, then Scientology is a lie.

9. Scientologists in general do not know what to do with Hubbard so they whitewash him or lie about him. What I would do is to present Hubbard as an American Original, warts and all. History is populated by accomplished bastards. Scientologists have to take the bad with the good when it comes to Hubbard. Many already have.

10. LRH died in 1986. DM is the guy in charge now and is therefore responsible for all of the evil in CoS. DM has a choice: He does not have to enforce Disconnection. He does not have to destroy people. He can eliminate the RPF with the stroke of a pen.

11. TPark, a thetan is senior to KSW. Correct? And yes, if you are in LA, let's meet to show that we are both gentlemen.

/////

Great post!

I'm in London UK. Its possible I may visit LA again. You ever in London let me know.
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
I've seen nothing to suggest that ... lrh's work is unalterable.

"Such suppressive acts include...Intentional and unauthorized alteration of LRH technology, policy, issues or checksheets." -- HCO POLICY LETTER OF 23 DECEMBER 1965RB SUPPRESSIVE ACTS - SUPPRESSION OF SCIENTOLOGY AND SCIENTOLOGISTS

Not to mention all of KSW ("Hammering out of existence incorrect technology....Knocking out incorrect applications...Closing the door on any possibility of incorrect technology.")

Also, one doesn't have to get auditing or take courses to be a Scientologist - it's a beingness. At least, that's what the Scientologists say!

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Such suppressive acts include...Intentional and unauthorized alteration of LRH technology, policy, issues or checksheets." -- HCO POLICY LETTER OF 23 DECEMBER 1965RB SUPPRESSIVE ACTS - SUPPRESSION OF SCIENTOLOGY AND SCIENTOLOGISTS

Not to mention all of KSW ("Hammering out of existence incorrect technology....Knocking out incorrect applications...Closing the door on any possibility of incorrect technology.")

Also, one doesn't have to get auditing or take courses to be a Scientologist - it's a beingness. At least, that's what the Scientologists say!

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com

Once again you think I'm a newbie. See the Golden Age of Drech, The Basics, and New and Improved OT VII - guaranteed to overrun your brain out and totally clear your bank $$$. KSW is words on paper. dm does what he feels will maximize profits without remorse. I would watch Greg and Deb Barnes videos to see how "standard" things run at Flag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Sh3hLn6PM
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

6. Scientologists who want to practice need to man up and say, "Yeah, Hubbard was a bastard who wrote this marvelous Tech. Go figure!" Anything else is a lie.

-snip-

That's an old PR line used by Scientology apologists.

Nothing that you're saying is new.

Did Marty love-bomb you?

Whatever happened to you, it hasn't made you any smarter - but you'll probably confuse some people who've just walked away from Scientology and are at the early stages of sorting out things.

I guess that's a kind of stat isn't it?

Give my regards to the body snatchers and the pod people - they're *so* misunderstood.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Once again you think I'm a newbie. See the Golden Age of Drech, The Basics, and New and Improved OT VII - guaranteed to overrun your brain out and totally clear your bank $$$. KSW is words on paper. dm does what he feels will maximize profits without remorse. I would watch Greg and Deb Barnes videos to see how "standard" things run at Flag.

-snip-

[/url]

You're complaining about the slave bracelets being too tight, and chafing.

They can be loosened.

It's one of the older gimmicks: loose, tighter, too tight, loosen, OK now? :)

Most Scientologists don't know what Scientology was, or is. Miscavige, at least, has seen the entire subject, much of which is kept from the rank-and-file who complain when their slave bracelets chafe.

Miscavige knows what Scientology is, and is attempting to apply it.

Since he's not Hubbard, people aren't willing to put up with as much; plus Hubbard, in his prime, was a lot slicker.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I think that the tightness of the slave bracelets isn't really the issue. Currently however, there's a push to rediscover them as wonderful fashion accessories; rather than as limitations.

Zinj
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
You're complaining about the slave bracelets being too tight, and chafing.

They can be loosened.

It's one of the older gimmicks: loose, tighter, too tight, loosen, OK now? :)

Most Scientologists don't know what Scientology was, or is. Miscavige, at least, has seen the entire subject, much of which is kept from the rank-and-file who complain when their slave bracelets chafe.

Miscavige knows what Scientology is, and is attempting to apply it.

Since he's not Hubbard, people aren't willing to put up with as much; plus Hubbard, in his prime, was a lot slicker.

Not quite seeing how the bracelet analogy ties into my post. I'm not of the "everything was great until dm came a long" camp.

My point is that anyone who thinks dm's hands are totally handcuffed to ksw and "the tech" and is only "following orders" is misinformed. Yeah sure he can only change things so much but to quote Marc Headley "dm uses tech to make himself right".

dm's only interest in scn is in the power and money it gives him. The ideal org program is yet another example of how he does whatever he wants in plain contradiction of hubbard's written policy to line his own pockets.

He is "applying scn" to the extent of trying to jam it into every possible place he can and make every dollar he can as flubbo would have but he is very much doing it his way and isn't concerned about what is on paper and it's just another cult myth that he is concerned about that.
 
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