GAT 2 Auditors Sent Home?

[Lone Star]

...

 

[Terril park]

Ok you guys have won. I completely give up on trying to keep this thread on the subject of its original post. It boggles me how easily these threads Q&A (for lack of a better term) onto things that have nothing to do with the OP. It's quite an interesting phenomenon to watch. But jeez, when I'm actually interested in the subject of the OP, it sure can get annoying.

Its for the benefit of those doing Masters, PhDs, and similar so as to
mine any information that may be relevant to their research. Such
is academia. And in theory is of broad interest to all.

 

[aegerprimo]

This is something that doesn't come across clearly at all in what one reads about Scientology online. People sometimes mention that it takes time, but they hardly ever seem to state clearly just how much time, and they never emphasize it as much as it deserves. As a never-in, my first clue was just the fact that auditing is sold in blocks of 12.5 hours. That seemed like a large unit to me. From what I'd read about auditing, I was expecting something more like 2 hours as a reasonable time unit.

Some parts of Scientology do seem to offer some benefits to some people. Since those benefits always fall well short of superpowers, it's always seemed to me that there must be better ways than Scientology to get them — better, in not being contaminated with the nastier elements of Scientology. Now I'm suspecting that Scientology is just a terrible deal from a cost perspective — cost in money, and cost in time. Like one of those rent-to-own scams where you end up paying ten times the market value for what you get.

Unfortunately, wasted time is one of the easiest things to forget or gloss over in memory. Did I really spend so long doing that? It's easy to lose track, especially when you don't want to think about how much time you wasted, from your finite lifetime, that could have been spent on other things. If I spend a thousand hours on something, over a few years, then I may not want to face it: For this, I gave up my novel. Or my six-pack abs. Or being a good dancer.

I really think this point should be made more prominently when explaining Scientology to the public. It should maybe feature right in the first sentence: "Scientology is a very time-consuming practice that ...".

Ok you guys have won. I completely give up on trying to keep this thread on the subject of its original post. It boggles me how easily these threads Q&A (for lack of a better term) onto things that have nothing to do with the OP. It's quite an interesting phenomenon to watch. But jeez, when I'm actually interested in the subject of the OP, it sure can get annoying.

Scientology does NOT produce Clears and OTs… (was it this thread or another where someone mentioned it takes 100+ hours for OTs to redo the Objectives these days – um really? Ouch.)

I’m sorry iHateDuplicity – but trying to use logic to explain why OOTs are being pulled from Flag for Gat II training is not going to happen because Scientology is just – illogical. Maybe that’s why this thread keeps having a tendency to get derailed? (And believe me, I find derailed threads exasperating as well.)

It is fun to speculate WHY upper management is doing whatever it is doing - especially for us Ex-scientologists. I definitely find it interesting!

The bottom line fact - the state of Clear and OT does NOT exist. If either or both of those states did exist, anything done in Scientology would not be a waste of time or money. Masses of people would be coming into the orgs. The extreme busyness of staff members and Sea Org members take to supposedly “clear the planet” would be worth the effort.

 

[clamicide]

I'll just leave this here... seems like Fair Use to me.

don't ya love the "making amends" part of liability? Yeah, I'm cynical, but that kinda is what it looked like. Everybody else on full-time training was too busy busting their ass... you promo like this, you were either in lowers or acting PTS and had to prove yourself. Sometimes 'OLs' got called out for this sort of thing, but not the norm....

 

[Gib]

don't ya love the "making amends" part of liability? Yeah, I'm cynical, but that kinda is what it looked like. Everybody else on full-time training was too busy busting their ass... you promo like this, you were either in lowers or acting PTS and had to prove yourself. Sometimes 'OLs' got called out for this sort of thing, but not the norm....

It's a pure promo piece and not written by Dana. the whole promo piece is about putting the "fun" back into scientology. LOL

Plus, there is positioning, she says we met C/S's and ED's from all over. These folks are important people in scientology since they "know" the technology.

Plus, there's lots of mystery created in that promo piece. Come on dissemination it is.

 

[WhatWall]

What I don't get is this REVERSAL of command intention.

For at least a decade or more starting with the IAS reg events, followed by Super Power, Basic, Libraries, WTH, ABLE, Ideal Orgs, Renos, and whatever else "Nothing-for-You-Sucker-Donos", all of a sudden the attention is on ACTUALLY giving public EXCHANGE for their cash and why they came into scn in the first place?!!!

This means lost income for DM, and income for the orgs and maybe even staff pay for those pour souls!!

Why is sadistic-DM being so "generous" all of a sudden? Is it so the public can pay up for packages and then he starts another "Debit your training account" for the "Newer Basics Books Program II library campaign" ? Or is it to get rid of those out dated Chinese made $47.00 E-meters which of course every student needs TWO of them per policy and they cannot be borrowed from another student! What about the "New and improved" course packs, books and lectures that need to be purchased by every student? It just does not make any sense that DM would allow this without some alterior motive or compensation at least 10 fold in magnitude. Maybe I'm just cynical, suspicious and jaded.......

You may have nailed it regarding the new E-meters. Ahhh, the warped mind of DM. Everyone is to co-audit and buy two meters!!! Sending the OOTs back home ASAP coincides with the kickoff of the co-auditing crusade, which starts with the E-meter sales campaign.

 

[Panda Termint]

don't ya love the "making amends" part of liability? Yeah, I'm cynical, but that kinda is what it looked like. Everybody else on full-time training was too busy busting their ass... you promo like this, you were either in lowers or acting PTS and had to prove yourself. Sometimes 'OLs' got called out for this sort of thing, but not the norm....

Nah, don't be so cynical. Dana's not an OOT, she's attending the ED and Snr C/S Conference and that's just a good example of rallying the troops back home! She's an OL, lol.

 

[degraded being]

.
.
I just read it again.

Surely they can make hotair sound like something, more competently than that.


I liked this bit:
They are being treated like kings there:

Did anyone say people don't get treated well there!!!!!!?????

 

[freethinker]

That is actually a short time for such a lineup and his org is lucky they got him back.

Submitted for your perusal . . .

Couple three years ago, I had coffee with an OOT (outer org trainee) who had gone to Flag to train up to be the Senior CS. He had just gotten back a few months earlier.

He went from not trained, the ground up to Class 6 auditor and CS (including internships); Clear Certainty Rundown CS, course supervisor training, TRs course sup, KTL sup/CS, and a few other smaller rundowns. Don’t remember which. But the point is he trained on everything he needed to anchor the technical team at his org as Senior CS. GAT I everything. While he was there, he also co-audited to Grade 3 as I recall.

Well, I asked him how long it took to do all that since I thought it was just an incredible amount of training to do in one gulp . . . one stay at Flag and on full-time training. I figured a year or two . . . or three at the very most.

He told me. Hearing his answer, any lesser mortal would have spit out her coffee but I kept my cool.
He was at Flag for eight (8) years full-time.
I’m still incredulous about this even as I write, but it’s the god-honest truth. I double checked to make sure I was hearing right. Yes, eight years.

 

[Dulloldfart]

That is actually a short time for such a lineup and his org is lucky they got him back.

I was working at David Morse & Associates (Scn insurance claims adjusting & investigations company) in LA in 2001 and shared an office with Doug Long, who later committed suicide.

He went to Flag for Senior C/S training as a Class VI. He told me he was there training for 9 years.

Paul

 

[Boojuum]

Submitted for your perusal . . .

Couple three years ago, I had coffee with an OOT (outer org trainee) who had gone to Flag to train up to be the Senior CS. He had just gotten back a few months earlier.

He went from not trained, the ground up to Class 6 auditor and CS (including internships); Clear Certainty Rundown CS, course supervisor training, TRs course sup, KTL sup/CS, and a few other smaller rundowns. Don’t remember which. But the point is he trained on everything he needed to anchor the technical team at his org as Senior CS. GAT I everything. While he was there, he also co-audited to Grade 3 as I recall.

Well, I asked him how long it took to do all that since I thought it was just an incredible amount of training to do in one gulp . . . one stay at Flag and on full-time training. I figured a year or two . . . or three at the very most.

He told me. Hearing his answer, any lesser mortal would have spit out her coffee but I kept my cool.
He was at Flag for eight (8) years full-time.
I’m still incredulous about this even as I write, but it’s the god-honest truth. I double checked to make sure I was hearing right. Yes, eight years.

Not surprising for anyone with a real understanding of Scientology training.

One of the big fibs of Scientology is that training an auditor takes a few months. The COS is incapable of removing arbitraries from training. After wandering through the various mazes of clay table, word clearing, KSW and more KSW, TR's, weird reges, weird supervisors, weird cramming officers, weird CO's, weird students, getting the correct CS and finding the correctly set up PC...it's no wonder that people take 9 years to get to a higher level of training. Add nutty to nutty and you end up with nine years to learn what you probably comprehended in 2 months.

The COS glorifies mis-guided rules that sound wonderful. I.e. 100% workable tech. Flubless auditors.

In 9 years of full time training, you could get a PhD in just about any subject area. You could become an MD (albeit in residency)! Or you could be a CLVI CS and get busted every six months for the rest of your life.

 

[Dulloldfart]

One exception to the insanity of CofS training is the RIDIDI regime, read it — drill it — do it, as (rarely) practised on non-professional co-audits of various kinds over the years. Sometimes in an RPF it's very fast, sometimes they add in silly arbitraries. But it can work very well when you have a good co-audit sup who can get the student co-auditors into session and auditing (badly! but they are auditing), dig the pc out of a hole where needed and turn the session back to the co-audit twin to take it from there. You can make some good auditors fast that way, even though they don't have "proper" certs to hang on the wall to get suspended by some bullshit exec later on.

Paul

 

[TG1]

Where did he post that? I just checked and didn't see that on his blog. Is it in the comments section?

Just saw this question. Here it is:

http://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientology-library-fail/#comment-17875

 

[iHateDuplicity]

One exception to the insanity of CofS training is the RIDIDI regime, read it — drill it — do it, as (rarely) practised on non-professional co-audits of various kinds over the years. Sometimes in an RPF it's very fast, sometimes they add in silly arbitraries. But it can work very well when you have a good co-audit sup who can get the student co-auditors into session and auditing (badly! but they are auditing), dig the pc out of a hole where needed and turn the session back to the co-audit twin to take it from there. You can make some good auditors fast that way, even though they don't have "proper" certs to hang on the wall to get suspended by some bullshit exec later on.

Paul

You got it. The RPF is the only place in the Scilon world where co-audits are actually done, and done per the issues. It's a forced co-audit situation so they have to follow the co-audit issues. And for some strange reason, no one else looks at what the RPF is doing and says "Hey, that looks easy. Look, there are people who have no training whatsoever co-auditing every conceivable action on the Bridge. They even co-audit the OT levels. Why aren't doing that?" Just another face palm.

 

[Dulloldfart]

And for some strange reason, no one else looks at what the RPF is doing and says "Hey, that looks easy. Look, there are people who have no training whatsoever co-auditing every conceivable action on the Bridge. They even co-audit the OT levels. Why aren't doing that?" Just another face palm.

At Saint Hill in the mid-70s there was a HUGE staff co-audit running. Paulette Ausley was on a Flag Mission to run it, and also pilot what was issued as the Co-Audit Series issues. That was quite fun and literally had a hundred people doing it, green as anything, with questions like how do you turn on this meter? Having just listened to Hubbard in a tape praising this sort of thing I threw my nice new Mark V to someone and said "Catch!" She dropped it. Anyway, this co-audit lasted for a couple of months, gradually dwindling.

-----

At AOSHUK around 1982 there was a small non-professional OT3 staff co-audit running for about a week. I got a New OT IV session in it before it was stopped.

At ITO around 1991 there was a similar one at ITO with about 3 pairs going, which lasted a week. It was wonderful as I got 2 or 3 sessions from Sylvia Collins/Grout/Crundall, who at the time was an interned Grad V I believe. Not exactly the spirit of a RIDIDI co-audit but I wasn't complaining. I managed to finish off New OT IV, which I had been in the middle of for ten years. I didn't get any case gain to speak of from that auditing, but it meant I could now do other things like start on KTL, so I was a happy camper.

Both co-audits got cancelled very quickly from uplines as they were "out-tech." Totally in line with Int Management's policy on staff auditing, namely

No auditing is better than any auditing.​

Paul

 

[Lulu Belle]

One exception to the insanity of CofS training is the RIDIDI regime, read it — drill it — do it, as (rarely) practised on non-professional co-audits of various kinds over the years. Sometimes in an RPF it's very fast, sometimes they add in silly arbitraries. But it can work very well when you have a good co-audit sup who can get the student co-auditors into session and auditing (badly! but they are auditing), dig the pc out of a hole where needed and turn the session back to the co-audit twin to take it from there. You can make some good auditors fast that way, even though they don't have "proper" certs to hang on the wall to get suspended by some bullshit exec later on.

Paul

My impression has always been that where Marty got his auditor training was on the RPF. He definitely wasn't a tech person on staff; wasn't anywhere near tech lines. Am I wrong about that?

 

[Dulloldfart]

My impression has always been that where Marty got his auditor training was on the RPF. He definitely wasn't a tech person on staff; wasn't anywhere near tech lines. Am I wrong about that?

I can't be bothered to look it up. From memory he spent a year or more on the Freewinds doing "tech training" under the auspices of Greg Wilhere (Hansueli Stahli?), basically on a self-study trip. He trained up to "Grad V," maybe, but since he Q'd and A'd completely with the checksheet and the "sup" didn't succeed in keeping him to the checksheet — if he even tried — he studied "the equivalent of the Briefing Course." Dunno if he did one single tech training course in a proper courseroom, you know, with a sup who was there while he was and roll call and all that stuff. Probably he was too high-profile to mix with the plebs.

Now, that isn't to say a smart student can't effectively study something without a sup breathing down his neck, but it's not Scientology.

I don't think he did an RPF trip per se, even for a week.

Paul

 

[iHateDuplicity]

At Saint Hill in the mid-70s there was a HUGE staff co-audit running. Paulette Ausley was on a Flag Mission to run it, and also pilot what was issued as the Co-Audit Series issues. That was quite fun and literally had a hundred people doing it, green as anything, with questions like how do you turn on this meter? Having just listened to Hubbard in a tape praising this sort of thing I threw my nice new Mark V to someone and said "Catch!" She dropped it. Anyway, this co-audit lasted for a couple of months, gradually dwindling.

-----

At AOSHUK around 1982 there was a small non-professional OT3 staff co-audit running for about a week. I got a New OT IV session in it before it was stopped.

At ITO around 1991 there was a similar one at ITO with about 3 pairs going, which lasted a week. It was wonderful as I got 2 or 3 sessions from Sylvia Collins/Grout/Crundall, who at the time was an interned Grad V I believe. Not exactly the spirit of a RIDIDI co-audit but I wasn't complaining. I managed to finish off New OT IV, which I had been in the middle of for ten years. I didn't get any case gain to speak of from that auditing, but it meant I could now do other things like start on KTL, so I was a happy camper.

Both co-audits got cancelled very quickly from uplines as they were "out-tech." Totally in line with Int Management's policy on staff auditing, namely

No auditing is better than any auditing.​

Paul

Wow, Paul, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You are spot on about management's policy on staff auditing. That's exactly how management has, without cancelling any issues, made it impossible for any co-auditing (staff or public) to happen now. Just by heavily discouraging it, calling it "out-tech", etc. And now, as I mentioned earlier, Dwarf Midget gets to stand on a stage and tell everyone they can do it now and they all fall down and praise him like the blathering idiots they are, not realizing that HE was the one who was stopping them from doing it in the first place.

Sometimes I really think the ignorant masses who are the majority of Scilon public and staff deserve everything they get, just for being so stupid.

 

[Dulloldfart]

I'll just toss in a little bit of "credit where credit is due."

In the HGB around 1991-3 ish, there was some eval done uplines, which noted that there was no staff Bridge progress going on. There was a push, especially from Cathy Rinder, to get Sector Heads like CO FB, CO FCB and others through OT3 and NOTs. This included a group of maybe a dozen RTC-trained people to fire in to PAC orgs as execs. As a sup I got to sup a dozen or so of them on OT1-3, in between being taken off post.

The idea I heard was "How can these management-type people manage the sectors under them when they didn't know what they were selling and delivering?" along with some idea that they would benefit case-wise from being OT3 and above and it would help them on their posts.

In line with that unreal-management idea, someone uplines had noticed that almost no-one in Flag Bureaux had ever had auditing or tech training, beyond maybe a sec check. So for 2 years or so the HQS Course was on Product 1 (from memory that line-up was Staff Status 1 and 2, Sea Org Etiquette Course, HQS, 3rd Class Mission School). The HQS Course had been watered down from what it was in the 70s, but it still contained proper co-auditing between the students on Self Analysis on 2 lists, roughly 10 hours each way. It got dropped after a couple of years for already-discussed reasons, but it was great while it lasted.

To be honest, almost all of the students who got through all those courses properly including the HQS Course were from Bridge, and they got to study 5 hours a day like they were meant to. Almost all the FB newbies got ripped off and put straight on post once they were through Staff Status 2 or so.

Paul

 

[Bea Kiddo]

My impression has always been that where Marty got his auditor training was on the RPF. He definitely wasn't a tech person on staff; wasn't anywhere near tech lines. Am I wrong about that?

Marty was on tech lines as far as I know. Are you sure?

Did he audit TC? He would have to have certs to do that.

But also he was involved in some tech handlings at CCI, but I could not say for sure whether or not he had done training. I did not really have enough interaction with him to know for sure.