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Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender & Queer as a 3 Dollar Bill

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I never met John Mac, but I'd heard he was indeed a sweet gay man. I'm surprised to hear that FZ has carried the 1.1 over into their practice. But it sounds like there's an open debate about it, at least, and that's what was never allowed in scn: openness and debate. Sounds healthy.

Another sweet gay man in scn -- bisexual, ackshully -- was William Burroughs. He wrote the book "Naked Lunch," and with Alan Ginsberg, Burroughs penned most of the queer lit of the beat era. Anyway, scn finally pissed him off, and he wrote a short book called "Naked Scientology." I just got a copy a few weeks ago, and it's a major hoot.

xoxo

outlaw

'Nova Express' and especially 'The Wild Boys' are heavily Scn influenced.

Zinj
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Hi Outlawgal and welcome to the board. :happydance:

I remember my first interview in Scn I was asked about any "out 2D activity" and innocently told them about a brief experimentation with another woman. I was shocked when the auditors response was to show me the tech dictionary definition of an overt.

I argued with her that it wasn't an overt because nobody was hurt and it was fully consenting, and apart from that, don't most women get a little curious somewhere in their 20s?

I could tell from that first interview that anything other than rigid hetrosexuality was considered perverse and that I had a little lable pinned to me from that time on.

This really conflicted with me because I had known a lot of gay men and had shared a house with a delightful gay guy who'd taught me how to accept people (and cook!). I also had some lovely lesbian friends who taught me to be strong as a woman (and drink heaps!).

I'm so glad to be free of the church and it's hatred of anyone or anything that doesn't fit into Hubbard's small minded view of how things "should be".

I'm so glad you are free to be exactly who you want to be.
 

Pixie

Crusader
Pixie -- I'm glad to see your post, and I'm angry on your behalf. Yeah -- creating a button that they can later push. Damn. But thass a point of view I never looked at before. Thank you! :thumbsup:

Missing out on hot experiences? Today's tranny youth are transitioning at 18 years old. I was 40 when I transitioned, and in those days that was positively young. From time to time, I think about the really hot experiences I missed from waiting as long as I did. Que sera, sera.

Thanks for the great, friendly post. :flowers2:

xoxo

outlaw

Thanks Outlawgal!! Glad you liked my post. Indeed, creating buttons was their forte as far as I could see, and that's the twist in their sword. Anyway, you're in the right place here, a friendly bunch for the most part, and I appreciate your response.

Warmest.. Pixie :thumbsup:

P.S. Thanks for the flowers..:hug:
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I never met John Mac, but I'd heard he was indeed a sweet gay man. I'm surprised to hear that FZ has carried the 1.1 over into their practice. But it sounds like there's an open debate about it, at least, and that's what was never allowed in scn: openness and debate. Sounds healthy.


outlaw

John Mac was the first lecturer I heard, way way back. What gentleness he had, I loved it so and thought that was Scientology. Perhaps that's why I could never understand in later years why any kind of sexual difference was immediately assigned 1.1. I just never believed it in my heart, or the statement that ALL Psychiatrists are bad and out to destroy you. I don't like blanket statements!

Unfortunately being raised within the confines of the tech I had no experience of gayness. Mine was a black and white world for a long time until I was spat out to find my own way in the 'degraded and dreadful world of wogs'. When my heart was so badly broken that I wanted to die I was sent the most beautiful gay guy to help me mend, the best girlfriend a gal could ask for. He saved my life and sanity with his understanding, his care, his surprise champagne and strawberry breakfasts on grey days. One day he took me and a few others to a karoke bar and proceeded to sing YMCA in a way that not only brought the house down, but showed me what courage and fun was all about. I loved him dearly and to this day my claws come out when I hear that fucking dismissive judgement of "1.1" and "degraded".

We all have different things to learn and experience, and we are individuals. As it should be.

An Aussie saying you may like - "bent as a wet tram ticket". Well why not? :happydance:
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Well Bea... when I wuz born, my birth cert said male. I wuz born in a state where they letcha change the gender on yer birth cert if yer a tranny, so my birth cert now says female. Who said if it isn't written, it isn't true? :wink:

Tranny fashion show?! Dollar tips?? Ummmm... sounds more like a strip show. No, really. It does. But yeah, it does sound like hilarious good fun. There's a whole lot funny about trannies. Funny but not mean. Thanks fer not being mean. :thumbsup:

And you got declared for experimenting with a same sex partner?? Aw, that just sucks. That so sucks. Thank goodness, it sounds yer sex life is fun and fulfilling these days. :happydance:

xoxo
outlaw
Thanks for answering. This thread is funny to me.

Anyways, to set the record straight, I am straight. But I enjoy the company of gays and have no problem with them. I am going to the show with a friend of mine, who is more into it than me. I think it will be fun and hilarious. They said bring bills for tips... I have no idea what I am in for....
 

Pixie

Crusader
Thanks for answering. This thread is funny to me.

Anyways, to set the record straight, I am straight. But I enjoy the company of gays and have no problem with them. I am going to the show with a friend of mine, who is more into it than me. I think it will be fun and hilarious. They said bring bills for tips... I have no idea what I am in for....

I always find the labels 'straight' or 'gay' alien to me. I take people as I find and I'm not interested in their sexual orientation or their religion. Why do people feel the need to label themselves at all? Love is love is love. To me, those sort of labels lead to another road to 'separation', like yet another organization. Who really cares at the end of the day what you are, you're going to either like people or you're not, we're talking human beings after all.
 
First thing: Welcome aboard OLG!



Bingo! The more I look at this, the more the old man's ideas about sex and gender make absolutely no sense, even in his own closed logic system.

Got that right. His stated views are just "added inapplicable data" included in the scientology material and originating in the cultural prejudices of the society of LRH's youth.


There are one or two FZers who are openly gay on our forums.

Mostly those of a liberal bent{ excuse pun those in the UK] have no problem with that.

A few take seriously the SOS position of gays = 1.1 on the tone scale

As one of the liberal freeszoners let me add that that is principally because those very few "extreme conservatives" have their heads so far up LRH's butt that they can see his dentures. :p



I'm surprised to hear that FZ has carried the 1.1 over into their practice. But it sounds like there's an open debate about it, at least, and that's what was never allowed in scn: openness and debate. Sounds healthy.


Not much of a debate from what I've seen.

Occasionally someone who is very anti tries to start something on one of the boards. Very quickly he is told to "get stuffed".

Most freezoners weigh in as "doesn't matter - nothing to do with spirit". A very few of the more militantly "all-LRH, all the time" crowd spew the company line. They are often the most vociferous that attitude doesn't carry much weight among freezoners generally.


Mark A. Baker
 

outlawgal

Patron
So lets take your case.
You are out of the closet. Or several of them. :)
By def you are not covert! Its not rocket science.:)
Thus those in the closet must be addressed.
COS has severe logistics and ideological probleems here!
We've looked at the latter, but on the former there must be
a 1.1 claims , disputes and 1.1 verifications unit.
Have you any idea of the dissaray of PC folders world wide?
Have you any idea how important you must be to have them found. :))))
If you are so important, go Outlawgirl. :)

THANK YOU for that BIG dose of reality, courage and inspiration. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :bowdown:

outlaw
 

outlawgal

Patron
...
I'm so glad to be free of the church and it's hatred of anyone or anything that doesn't fit into Hubbard's small minded view of how things "should be".

I'm so glad you are free to be exactly who you want to be.

Emma, thank you so much for your story and warm welcome. I'm darned pleased to be meeting up with you and everyone else here. Wow.

xoxo

outlaw:blowkiss:
 

outlawgal

Patron
Bent As A Wet Tram Ticket

...
Unfortunately being raised within the confines of the tech I had no experience of gayness. Mine was a black and white world for a long time until I was spat out to find my own way in the 'degraded and dreadful world of wogs'. When my heart was so badly broken that I wanted to die I was sent the most beautiful gay guy to help me mend.... I loved him dearly and to this day my claws come out when I hear that fucking dismissive judgement of "1.1" and "degraded".

We all have different things to learn and experience, and we are individuals. As it should be.

An Aussie saying you may like - "bent as a wet tram ticket". Well why not? :happydance:

You were raised within Scn? Ouch, ouch, ouch. :bigcry: All I can say is you have a heart now that's bigger than the church ever allowed our hearts to be then. Bless you and your gay boy girlfriend, and bless YMCA via karaoke!

And I LOVE "bent as a wet tram ticket" -- may have to get a new tattoo with that one. :roflmao:

Thank you, hon. Ya made me laugh, ya made me cry. Can't ask more than that from a friend.

outlaw
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
You were raised within Scn? Ouch, ouch, ouch. :bigcry: All I can say is you have a heart now that's bigger than the church ever allowed our hearts to be then. Bless you and your gay boy girlfriend, and bless YMCA via karaoke!

And I LOVE "bent as a wet tram ticket" -- may have to get a new tattoo with that one. :roflmao:

Thank you, hon. Ya made me laugh, ya made me cry. Can't ask more than that from a friend.

outlaw

Hey thankyou too, you have great energy! :thumbsup: :bighug:
 

outlawgal

Patron
First thing: Welcome aboard OLG!
...
As one of the liberal freeszoners let me add that that is principally because those very few "extreme conservatives" have their heads so far up LRH's butt that they can see his dentures. :p

:roflmao: :hysterical: :roflmao: :hysterical: :roflmao: :hysterical:


...Most freezoners weigh in as "doesn't matter - nothing to do with spirit". A very few of the more militantly "all-LRH, all the time" crowd spew the company line. They are often the most vociferous that attitude doesn't carry much weight among freezoners generally.
Mark A. Baker

Thanks for the welcome, the great laugh, and the good perspective on FZ. Good to be here.:thumbsup:

xo

outlaw
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
I do not know where "The Pilot" got his data from, maybe that was the case in LA. I know that there was a GAY THETA Club out there because one of their shirtlifting fraternity was over at St Hill and bragged about it.

From what I remember, this was not the case in the SO (Apart from John Mac, Colin Cormie and Aristotle the tailor).

Nor do I remember any of the male staff sharing a bed with other male staff "to get their TR's in".

Was The Pilot getting some of his own w/h's off?:whistling: :whistling: :eyeroll:

Probably America more than UK, but Pilot was on staff at New York Org. He's commented on the matter in his Super Scio writeup, where he describes and comments on some of the myths about the Church and Scn.

Turns out he never took part in the TR practice himself. Here's his comments;

WHAT IS: The CofS is currently anti-homosexual. Practicing homosexuals are currently blocked from upper levels.

WHAT ISN'T: This was not the case until sometime in the 1980s. The only early reference by Ron was that thetans basically don't have a sex (there aren't male and female thetans). It was believed that people became homosexual due to mental charge of some sort (such as a bad incident that might need to be run out), but when this charge was removed, they tended to become bi-sexual (no longer blocked from heterosexual relations) rather than abandoning homosexuality.

There was even an idea circulating among staff in the 1960s that everyone should try a homosexual experience once just to get your TRs in on it (in other words, get your confront up on it). I know a few who tried it on this basis, and even one girl who decided that she liked being gay better. However, most of us (including myself) felt that just because you hadn't screwed a gorilla, it didn't mean that you had to go and do it just to get your TRs in. Even so, the place was liberal and safe for alternative lifestyles. The idea of removing mental charge was that nobody would be prejudiced or much bothered by anything as long as no one was getting hurt.

Too bad it isn't like that now.
 
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nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Probably America more than UK, but Pilot was on staff at New York Org. He's commented on the matter in his Super Scio writeup, where he describes and comments on some of the myths about the Church and Scn.

Turns out he never took part in the TR practice himself. Here's his comments;

WHAT IS: The CofS is currently anti-homosexual. Practicing homosexuals are currently blocked from upper levels.

WHAT ISN'T: This was not the case until sometime in the 1980s. The only early reference by Ron was that thetans basically don't have a sex (there aren't male and female thetans). It was believed that people became homosexual due to mental charge of some sort (such as a bad incident that might need to be run out), but when this charge
was removed, they tended to become bi-sexual (no longer blocked from heterosexual relations) rather than abandoning homosexuality.

There was even an idea circulating among staff in the 1960s that everyone should try a homosexual experience once just to get your TRs in on it (in other words, get your confront up on it). I know a few who tried it on this basis, and even one girl who decided that she liked being gay better. However, most of us (including myself) felt that just because you hadn't screwed a gorilla, it didn't mean that you had to go and do it just to get your TRs in. Even so, the place was liberal and safe for alternative lifestyles. The idea of removing mental charge was that nobody would be prejudiced or much bothered by anything as long as no one was getting hurt.

Too bad it isn't like that now.

The definition of 2D included bi-sexual activity when I first saw it in 1977.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yeah, it seems to have got more restrictive since then. I also remember that they were very down on straight Scientologists having sex before marriage, even those in long term relationships.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yeah, it seems to have got more restrictive since then. I also remember that they were very down on straight Scientologists having sex before marriage, even those in long term relationships.

I remember being told by Diane Gagon, the mission holder's wife, that sex was for marriage, period. And being taken to the dock for having sex with another student. Fortunately I was "upstat" so no heads rolled. (Oops)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
The definition of 2D included bi-sexual activity when I first saw it in 1977.

I heard that was a "typo" in Fundamentals of Thought, I believe, introduced by a sexually ambiguous editor/proofreader. At the time I believed it.

Looking at it now, well, I still believe it.

Paul
 

Twin A

Patron with Honors
Outlawgal, wow, great to see you here on this board. Honor to have you join us here.

I've recently been to AsiaSF, the dancers there were very impressive and beautiful. It's amazing to me how they changed their appearance to line up with their spirit like that. Most of them had made the most final change. Physically I could still sort of see a percentage of "guy" still in all of them. It was probably because they were dancers, so athletic, the muscle/bone structure still showed a kind of handsomeness and power particular to men. (and some of course still had an Adam's Apple--tho I think that can be surgically shaved
down now too right?) The way they danced, their mannerisms were all with a very definate femininity and grace. It wasn't a strip show, it was just dancing with skimpy outfits on. I have to admit, it was kind of erotic and fascinating. I was half expecting to be "grossed out" but I was not. There is apparently going to be a new AsiaLA soon. I look forward to it.

I do wonder/worry sometimes about the long term health effects of altering ones appearance because aren't hormones involved? I am curious if a guy changes into a women and is taking hormones for that, is there any side effect whereby the bone density is influenced? Or am I mixing up chromosome problems with hormone problems? I have a relative with XXY syndrome (Klinefelters syndrome) and he has to take steroids because he had gotten Osteoporosis from the extra X chromosome screwing up his natural testosterone levels needed for bone formation. Just wondering if there is the reverse if someone is taking hormones?

When I was in the SO up at INT ('83 to 2000) I was taught that anything other than "straight", and married before sex, was "1.1" and there was absolutely NO tolerance. I mean, there was this one lady on the RPF who had confessed to merely asking larger breasted women to pick up something off of her desk to purposefully have them lean over her so she could see down their shirts a little bit... and she had to do ethics conditions for THAT!!! She had to make a doubt announcement to the entire RPF. Give me a break.

There was this 15 year old kid on the EPF in LA, this was around 1986 I think and it was discovered that he had "done something gay" and so they instantly offloaded him. Both of his parents wanted to stay in the SO. Where the heck was this guy going to go? Where DID he go? I don't even know what happened to him, but this kind of thing was always in the back of my mind the entire time I was in the SO.

I don't know, you know it was kind of just a total "no sex" thing too though. There was a women on her way to INT who literally got told by an Ethics Officer that she should not give her own husband blow jobs!!! :omg: There was this one time when I was 21, when a latino male in Gold got a crush on me. He would serenade me with his guitar and sing Spanish songs or Beattles songs for me, then he would sometimes give me a neck and shoulder massage... with his tongue. I loved it. But I had to pretend it never happened. I couldn't tell anyone or talk about it. Can't have "close" friends in the SO that you can talk to. My own sister would write Knowledge Reports on me. No secrets or discrete things allowed... It was weird, because it was classified as "heavy petting." Who knows, maybe it's all gotten more and more prudish and suppressed because if people at Int on staff WERE having and enjoying doing things with their bodies sexually... then the body would not be such a bad "trap" to be stuck and their whole fanatic "get up the bridge" drive would make no sense. "Get up the bridge! and escape the horrible trap that is your body"... oh ... except it's not REALLY a trap... it's kind of darn fun to have a body.

Later, in the 90's when I found myself feeling attracted to someone of the same sex, I actually got scared. I'd kind of bought into the fact that it was somehow "evil" and I was seeing this "evil" in me and I had thought, well, it's my "reactive mind" and Scientology can therefore "cure" me. Of course admitting it is the first step and that could result in getting one kicked out and shunned. Just plain saying it, not having acted on it in any way! Just admitting that you felt "something" towards someone of the same sex... meant somehow that something was "wrong" with you.


One of the biggest problems with Scientology (not just with it trying to be a religion, but also with it trying to be a self improvement movement of some sort) is that there is such a low tolerance for anyone being anything other than perfectly "straight." What percentage of the real world is actually "perfectly straight" anyway?

Simply fearing or hating or thinking I was "bad" because I felt sexual tension around a female I really liked... were contributing factors to me having self destructive tendencies and eating disorders. (which I don't have anymore :happydance: ) I had to get comfortable with the fact that I can be attracted by both --- and I had to leave Scientology to even do that. Because in Scientology, especially now, it's considered wrong and evil. I had to go back to my own non-Scientology family who loved me no matter how I felt. I had to just say f____ LRH and his stupid ideas of what "normal" and "good" were. I have met too many really great people who are not straight, reading LRH's tone scale blurbs about this subject now is just like reading that people used to think that the world was flat.

I have a great man in my life right now and I'm really happy with him. He kind of gets a kick out of when I openly admire a beautiful women we see in a movie or TV or something, because then he does not get in trouble for noticing either. I mean we can share that, I can say, "God, isn't she hot?" and sometimes he'll say "Yeh" or sometimes he'll say "You are hotter" -- what a sweetie huh? My boyfriend does not like it when I openly admire another guy. He finds it annoying :grouch: I got kind of excited one day about going to the Thunder down Under show in Las Vegas and my boyfriend got upset with me. He actually didn't like it that I was at the AsiaSF show either. Not as upsetting to him as thinking of me watching some half naked Australian body builders dance around, but just a little upset about it. Luckily I had an excuse, it was part of a documentary video I was shooting. It was work related. I had to go :whistling:
 

outlawgal

Patron
WHAT ISN'T: This was not the case until sometime in the 1980s. The only early reference by Ron was that thetans basically don't have a sex (there aren't male and female thetans). It was believed that people became homosexual due to mental charge of some sort (such as a bad incident that might need to be run out), but when this charge was removed, they tended to become bi-sexual (no longer blocked from heterosexual relations) rather than abandoning homosexuality.

There was even an idea circulating among staff in the 1960s that everyone should try a homosexual experience once just to get your TRs in on it (in other words, get your confront up on it). I know a few who tried it on this basis, and even one girl who decided that she liked being gay better. However, most of us (including myself) felt that just because you hadn't screwed a gorilla, it didn't mean that you had to go and do it just to get your TRs in. Even so, the place was liberal and safe for alternative lifestyles. The idea of removing mental charge was that nobody would be prejudiced or much bothered by anything as long as no one was getting hurt.

Too bad it isn't like that now.

Whoa! An idea circulating among staff in the 60's?? I joined in 70, and no ideas were allowed to circulate unless they were in writing.
"If it isn't written, it isn't true." ew-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w!

So I wonder... is there anything along these lines in writing by the old man? Like in his old files? Anyone ever read anything like that? Wouldn't it be a major hoot to find a crack in that armor? Ha!

Thanks, Cat's S... Dang! Reading this board is like finding pieces to a jigsaw puzzle I've been going crazy over (literally) for decades.

kiss kiss

outlaw
 

outlawgal

Patron
Yeah, it seems to have got more restrictive since then. I also remember that they were very down on straight Scientologists having sex before marriage, even those in long term relationships.

There was a LOT of extramarital sex going on aboard the Apollo in 1970 and 1971. I guess word of it finally got to the old man, and in 1972 he decided to do something about it. '72 was a leap year. There's an old tradition that women could propose marriage to a man on leap years. ::gasp::

So, one morning in early 1972—it may have been new year's day, I'm not sure of the date—we all woke up and the old man had written in the Orders of the Day that any woman who proposed to a man and successfully got him to marry her would be promoted a grade in rank. Honest. I was a guy then, and my first wife proposed to me and sure enough she was promoted from W/O to Lt. (jg)... outranking me.

Gotta love paramilitary life. :nazi:

outlaw
 
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