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Geir Isene: Scientology Fair Game & forced Disconnection. So what?

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron


I don't see anyone blaming here ... but I do see someone wanting to know (as I do) why we got sucked in when so many others didn't.

:)

Agreed, and I don't think there's just one reason for that. I think for some people the CofS provided something they hadn't had in their lives up until that point; an environment of (apparently) warm and caring people who shared a common purpose.

Also, some people are spiritual seekers and others aren't, and the former are more likely to join organisations which promise spiritual freedom.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Bearing in mind that Geir is Norwegian, I'm tempted to post on his blog and ask him what he thinks of Anders Breivik's massacre in 2011 (after all, there are and have been bigger atrocities in the world than the death of 77 kids, and Breivik was also convinced he was doing it all in a good cause). By the same logic as he used in that post, he wouldn't have a problem with it.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
Is that what that was? Steam?

OK. :)

Never mind.

Never mind it is :)

EDIT - Pictograms don't always come across well, I honestly have no idea what you ment with that post. Asking me questions as to how I interpreted it won't help me understand it better as "blowing off steam" is how I understood you to understand CiC... So it just makes it more confusing.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
What made us so pathetically selfish, weak, desperate and/or power hungry that we 100 were willing to not only tolerate the evil acts performed against us... and our loved ones, but also to perform evil acts against others? Whereas, in contrast, the other 9,900 people were not?

I think this is an important question. It's easy to lose sight of it, on a board for Ex-Scientologists, where most people were among the 100, and few of the 9900 ever come by. As one of the 990,000 who never encountered Scientology at all, here's how I see it.

Of the 9900, maybe 100 or maybe 900 were too smart or too good ever to have fallen for Scientology under any circumstances. Maybe 1 was the kind of hero who, if L. Ron Hubbard had held a gun to their head and told them to join the SO or die, would have looked him in the eye and said, "Shoot."

And of the 100, maybe 10 were rotten people who would have found their way into something like Scientology by hook or by crook.

But what if the only difference between about 9000 of those who didn't join, and 90 of those who did, was just circumstantial? Low point in your life, attractive person behind the desk, whatever?

I'm not sure that's true. Maybe there's a bit more to it than that. Maybe only 10 or so of the 100 who got caught by Scn were just average people caught at a low point, and 80 of the 100 were unusually gullible and malleable people who got sucked in because they were precisely the prey on which Scientology was designed to feed. Maybe there were another 80 malleable people among the 9900, who were just lucky in being at a high point when Scientology flung its net at them.

My take on people is that most people can be very good at their best and very bad at their worst. Scientology is the kind of thing that works pretty well at turning a brief period of circumstantial vulnerability into a long-term trap. That does need to be taken into account. On the other hand, everybody needs to take a hard look in the mirror from time to time.

Scientology isn't the only bad thing one can do in life. Most of the 9900 who avoided that particular mistake have done other bad things instead. If you conclude that you screwed up badly and it really was your fault, then welcome to the club. Few people are really in any position to throw stones at you. But then likewise, Scientology brainwashing isn't the only excuse one can find in life, either. Everybody who has done something bad can scrape up some mitigation or other. Up to some point those extenuating circumstances matter, past some point they do not.

I'm not saying there's no responsibility because everyone's the same. I'm saying that the problem of weighing responsibility is the same for everyone. How much slack should we cut ourselves? Some, but not too much. You can argue about just how much slack is right, with Scientology, but just don't talk as if someone who seems to cut more or less slack than you is obviously cutting none at all, or way too much. This is never an easy balance to find, even outside Scientology.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Several responses.

First, I never heard that while I was in.

Second, while I've heard of that on ESMB since I've been out, it has been far from universal.

Third, and most importantly, so what? Some authority figure tells one that one must disconnect from one's parents for their own good, to bring them "to their senses," and one... accepts that?

Some authority figure tells one that one must disconnect from one's spouse for their own good, to bring them "to their senses," and one... accepts that?

Some authority figure tells one that one must disconnect from one's child for their own good, to bring them "to their senses," and one... accepts that?

And because the authority figure told the disconnecting adult child, spouse, or parent that it was for the good of the disconctee, to bring the disconectee to their senses, the disconnecting adult child, spouse, or parent bears no responsibility?

After all, they were told that it was for the best, for the good of the disconectee.

It is not like they were the adult child told to disconnect from his parents for their own good, so they come to their senses, the adult spouse told to disconnect from his spouse for her own good, so she comes to her senses, the adult parent told to disconnect from his child, for his own good, might want to, indeed might have a responsibility to, make up their own mind as a responsible adult.

From reading this post exploring what long term exposure to a mind control cult does to person might temper your pronouncements with some thoughtful pauses. Try reading the 4-5 star rated threads in the My Story section as well. Has it occurred to you the utter anguish and devastation those experiences from Ex's shared are there for the reading? The lies, the deceits, the dissonances, the rage and turmoils, the deep soul searching it takes to leave $cientology and the aftermath is not some easy walk in the park.

I honestly don't expect them to say or do anything. I honestly don't want them to say or do anything.

I neither expert nor want confessions or liability formulas or anything else.

Whatever amends, if any, one person thinks they owe to a specific person, or group of persons, or indeed "humanity," is up to them.

I don't think I've ever called anyone out, or criticized them, regarding what they have revealed they said or did while in the COS. If so, I apologize for that.

I just think it it is not inappropriate for me to challenge people when on ESMB they affirmatively argue, or just seem to assume, that nobody is responsible for anything they said or did while a member of Scientology because "cult," because "brainwashing." To perhaps not so gently remind them that, um, no a hell of a lot of people were exposed to the same "cult," the same "brainwashing," and didn't say or do what you did.

My rant started concerning the subject of this thread, Geir Isene, when somebody indicated (I can find the post if it is really necessary) that one really can't hold him responsible for what he said five years after he left the COS because his brain had been "altered." My initial rant was along the lines of, "Really, and when does that excuse end? Ever?"

I recall when Geir posted his oatee 8 thread and as expected several people showed up J&D-ing and pointing out the fallacies of $cientology. It was another of Geir's bungles and I was cheerfully adding my 2 cents. Emma showed up on the thread pointing out something that caught me short leading me to rethink onion peeling.

Decompressing and peeling the $cio onion takes as long as takes. It varies with each person, there's no check sheet or schedule. It won't happen faster because I or anyone else wants it to. This isn't some Bridge with time table success stories meted out to everyone's satisfaction. It takes time. Because someone is out for 5 years they are expected to have it all figured out with a pretty bow on top? Really? It took me nine years decompressing from the cult before I even began questioning my cult experiences and indoctrination.

By all means point out the balderdash Geir and his like minded brethren post on the internet but have some patience. If cult recovery is now about satisfying everyone's collective expectations within an arbitrary time frame then many of you are missing the point of recovery. It's for that person to do reclaiming themselves and no magic potion or wishful thinking will speed it up. Perhaps starting a counseling fund to send people to Steve Hassan for fast track onion peeling would help however I suspect he'll say the same thing, it takes as long as it takes. Patience please.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation


Re Student of Trinity's last post ...

Yep, that's pretty much how I see it too and I know for sure that I was at a low point when they threw their net and caught me ... I was weak at that moment and the tools and attention they gave me made me think I was strong, I was also kept so very busy (on staff) that the "issues" just seemed to melt away (genuinely, they actually did disappear in a few days).

If they had found me a few weeks prior I would have just laughed and hot footed it in the opposite direction.

It was my state of mind and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.


:)
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
From reading this post exploring what long term exposure to a mind control cult does to person might temper your pronouncements with some thoughtful pauses. Try reading the 4-5 star rated threads in the My Story section as well. Has it occurred to you the utter anguish and devastation those experiences from Ex's shared are there for the reading? The lies, the deceits, the dissonances, the rage and turmoils, the deep soul searching it takes to leave $cientology and the aftermath is not some easy walk in the park.



I recall when Geir posted his oatee 8 thread and as expected several people showed up J&D-ing and pointing out the fallacies of $cientology. It was another of Geir's bungles and I was cheerfully adding my 2 cents. Emma showed up on the thread pointing out something that caught me short leading me to rethink onion peeling.

Decompressing and peeling the $cio onion takes as long as takes. It varies with each person, there's no check sheet or schedule. It won't happen faster because I or anyone else wants it to. This isn't some Bridge with time table success stories meted out to everyone's satisfaction. It takes time. Because someone is out for 5 years they are expected to have it all figured out with a pretty bow on top? Really? It took me nine years decompressing from the cult before I even began questioning my cult experiences and indoctrination.

By all means point out the balderdash Geir and his like minded brethren post on the internet but have some patience. If cult recovery is now about satisfying everyone's collective expectations within an arbitrary time frame then many of you are missing the point of recovery. It's for that person to do reclaiming themselves and no magic potion or wishful thinking will speed it up. Perhaps starting a counseling fund to send people to Steve Hassan for fast track onion peeling would help however I suspect he'll say the same thing, it takes as long as it takes. Patience please.



I've never seen CIC post anything here other than facts ... for him to actually post something containing some angst (for want of a better word) is, to my way of thinking a really good sign and is perhaps his way of peeling his own "onion" and surely he has every right to.

I also think he has made some very valid points and I can't see where he has asked anything of anyone or made any pronouncements that would offend anyone except perhaps Geir who has offended almost everyone with his latest nonsense and will cope because he seems to want the attention (any attention) and has done it deliberately IMO as part of his latest "business plan".

:confused2:
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I've never seen CIC post anything here other than facts ... for him to actually post something containing some angst (for want of a better word) is, to my way of thinking a really good sign and is perhaps his way of peeling his own "onion" and surely he has every right to.

I also think he has made some very valid points and I can't see where he has asked anything of anyone or made any pronouncements that would offend anyone except perhaps Geir who has offended almost everyone with his latest nonsense and will cope, he wants the attention and has done it deliberately IMO as part of his latest "business plan".

:confused2:

Who's offended? CIC hasn't offended me. Yes, some valid points have been made and a good rant every once in a while is healthy. My point is have some patience that's all. :)
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Who's offended? Not me. Yes, some valid points have been made and a good rant every once in a while is healthy. My point is have some patience that's all. :)


I feel it's impossible to do all the things various people demand and still post from the heart and posting from the heart is more important than being patient with someone who clearly isn't bothered what we think anyway (in this case I refer to Geir).

To hell with patience, most of us have already wasted enough time on scientology and the faster we sort things out the better, even if it's sometimes not done perfectly.

:)
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I feel it's impossible to do all the things various people demand and still post from the heart and posting from the heart is more important than being patient with someone who clearly isn't bothered what we think anyway (in this case I refer to Geir).

To hell with patience, most of us have already wasted enough time on scientology and the faster we sort things out the better, even if it's sometimes not done perfectly.

:)

Huh? I made no demand. Perhaps you misunderstood, I was recommending patience when it comes to people decompressing and onion peeling, you know, cult recovery. If someone such as Geir doesn't understand onion peeling, so be it, I'm not in the people fixing business. The info is there to read (or avoid) on the board available at any time.

I believe what sets people apart from Elcon's cult are very virtues Elcon intentionally omitted from $cientology and tried to inhibit in $cientologists. You practice the virtues that mean the most to you and I'll practice the ones that mean the most to me.
 
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Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
---snipped as not addressed to myself----

In any event, IMO, for the most part, ex-Scientologists do take responsibility, however they also recognize that systematic deception and manipulation exist. That seems a pretty balanced and sensible approach, don't you think?

I don't share your opinion Veda. I observed the opposite to be true. For the most part, ex-Scientologists do not take responsibility (for their actions while in Scientology). You left the part out in brackets which I added - did you mean something else???

Of course, it is easy to recognize that systematic deception and manipulation exist. That's not a new concept. It is a well known fact that such exists and nobody denies that Scientology makes ample use of both. It would be indeed odd if Scientology wouldn't, considering the field they are working in.

Can anybody really claim he would not have known that Scientology was a cult? I am addressing individuals who have joined as adults to make my point more transparent.

Out of curiosity, let's do following test honestly:

Who did not know, when encountering Scientology, that same was a cult, please raise their hands!
Now of the ones who have raised their hands, please raise your hands again if you didn't know that a cult might be mental!

Now, if you have raised your hands both times - please be exempt. You truly didn't know what you were doing! It was not your fault. Probably you didn't know what you were doing when you disconnected or fair gamed because you didn't do that out of your own will. In fact you repeated only what was told to you which was believed by you and it happened because somebody manipulated you in doing so. It was not your fault. You were merely victims of systematic deception and manipulation.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Agreed, and I don't think there's just one reason for that. I think for some people the CofS provided something they hadn't had in their lives up until that point; an environment of (apparently) warm and caring people who shared a common purpose.

Also, some people are spiritual seekers and others aren't, and the former are more likely to join organisations which promise spiritual freedom.

^^ :clap: :clap: :clap: Hey, CS! :goodposting:

You sure have a way of looking at things differently and opening up a whole new aspect of truth.

Michael Leonard Tilse, who spoke at Flagdown 2014, gave a great talk about coming from a home environment where he was more susceptible to that sort of thing. That goes for me and a lot of us here.

He also spoke about how all sorts of different types of people from different backgrounds might join or stay with groups like that for different reasons.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


Re Student of Trinity's last post ...

Yep, that's pretty much how I see it too and I know for sure that I was at a low point when they threw their net and caught me ... I was weak at that moment and the tools and attention they gave me made me think I was strong, I was also kept so very busy (on staff) that the "issues" just seemed to melt away (genuinely, they actually did disappear in a few days).

If they had found me a few weeks prior I would have just laughed and hot footed it in the opposite direction.

It was my state of mind and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

:)

I too was at a low point because I was totally broke and jobless.

They got me!

(ps: I was in high school, lol)
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
I too was at a low point because I was totally broke and jobless.

They got me!

(ps: I was in high school, lol)

Gawd, had you only managed to stay out of trouble until you reached college...

Then again, if you never got hooked the insane amount of comedy you have created wouldn't exist... So I suppose Ima saying man I'm glad you got hooked into a cult selling aliens and Theta powers!
 

JustSheila

Crusader
^ *(raises hand) I was a 16 year old runaway. I thought I went to a real church for help in 1977. They told me it was a church, then I was given a billion year contract and told it was "symbolic". I thought at 16 I could sign anything and not worry. Boy, was I wrong.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Huh? I made no demand. Perhaps you misunderstood, I was recommending patience when it comes to people decompressing and onion peeling, you know, cult recovery. If someone such as Geir doesn't understand onion peeling, so be it, I'm not in the people fixing business. The info is there to read (or avoid) on the board available at any time.

I believe what sets people apart from Elcon's cult are very virtues Elcon intentionally omitted from $cientology and tried to inhibit in $cientologists. You practice the ones that mean the most you and I'll practice the ones that mean the most to me.




I already am ... is this an example of you being "patient" earlier today?


:biggrin:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?35850-It%92s-time-to-stop-complaining-about-the-cult-and-get-on-with-your-life&p=933449&viewfull=1#post933449

I'm not trying to be annoying (to you) Free, but being patient in a message board situation isn't always realistic or even desirable ... a one on one discussion about something touchy is a different thing altogether and of course patience would be desirable then and usually comes naturally to a person with a heart and genuine compassion.

Right now I'm just happy seeing one of our valuable members having a rare rant (using lot's of reason) than concerning myself with pretending to be patient with Geir, who deserves whatever he gets after some of the slop he's written lately.

 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
^ *(raises hand) I was a 16 year old runaway. I thought I went to a real church for help in 1977. They told me it was a church, then I was given a billion year contract and told it was "symbolic". I thought at 16 I could sign anything and not worry. Boy, was I wrong.

No Sheila, I meant kids are excluded from my test. 16 years is too young to recognize all dangers. I was 18 and very well aware that it was a cult. So I would draw a line at 18 years to be on the save side. 16 is definitely too young to make own decisions in this regard.
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
No Sheila, I meant kids are excluded from my test. 16 years is too young to recognize all dangers. I was 18 and very well aware that it was a cult. So I would draw a line at 18 years to be on the save side. 16 is definitely too young to make own decisions in this regard.

You realised it was a cult and went for it anyway? Really?!
If you don't mind saying, how did you reason it? The pro's outweighed the con's?

18 is still very young and susceptible even though you can vote and go kill people in a war.
 
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