ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Gerry Armstrong

Discussion in 'Fair Game and Disconnection Victims' started by Caroline, Jan 14, 2017.

  1. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I agree. If I were the Church it would be much more preferable to have them at odds against each other instead of forming any kind of alliance. I think they could accomplish much more through a coordinated effort than pushing a reparation agenda.

    Scientology makes people sacrifice a lot. When does the sacrificing end? There are things that would have people want me to fall on my sword also. Do I drag my family, employees, friends and business associates into this by declaring my sins publicly? Maybe, but not without weighing the risks and setting the groundwork carefully. Leah is a game changer because she has the resources, talent and resolve to get broad exposure before intimidation or legal maneuvering can bog a person down. If Mike released information too early and unprepared or not timed well with public interest then the effort would not have the maximum effect and could be wasted. Part of that timing is establishing a support network. Leah is having maximum effect because the collective efforts of people and the collaborations they created over the last 10+ years have reached a critical mass. The continued expansion and power of social media and the internet as alternative avenues for information that are faster, more effective and more difficult to suppress is a major part of the timing. All of Leah's programs are available online within 24 hours. It can't even be limited or stopped due to TV programming schedules. If YouTube blocks it Russia will have it - it's a Scientology nightmare.

    This goes beyond Mike and Gerry also. There are other people who played central roles in this who probably would not consider getting involved as long as this adversarial relationship continued. Imagine the heads exploding at INT if Gerry was able to tell his story on national TV with the support and confirmation of not just Mike but several very high ranking people who were directly involved with that Church operation.
  2. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    That would be cathartic at so many levels--for everyone.

    It would also be sensationally great TV.

    I have no slightest wish to try to make Mike Rinder squirm. But, fairly, it is well within the spirit of Leah's (and Mike's) episodic hit show to look the uncomfortable truths about the cult of Scn squarely in the eye--even when the whistleblowers have to consider their own contribution (major or minor) to the cruel sociopathic hoax Hubbard perpetrated.

    Let me consider my own involvement for a moment. Did I not give Hubbard's Gestappo-esque, Fair-Gaming GO/OSA Secret Police money when I paid for my own courses and auditing? Did I not join staff and even do my stint as a billion-year Sea Org group member--the same group (for example) that was contemporaneously trying to frame the innocent Paulette Cooper and send her to federal prison for "bomb threats" that the cult itself made? Was I not involved in auditing others, C/Sing others and training others to follow KSW--the very same "scripture" that was used to try to force Paulette to go insane so she could be sent to a psychiatric insane asylum? Did I not promote Scientology to new people and, by doing so, snare them into the lifelong chokehold of that vicious crimewave?

    Sure Gerry is exponentially less responsible for Fair Game atrocities than OSA execs like Rinder, Rathbun and so many others. But, wasn't Gerry also a billion-year supporter of L. Ron Hubbard? Is anyone who joined that evil organization truly free of any blame? I don't think so.

    But, does that mean there is a moral equivalence between some who only were minorly helping facilitate the fraud and those who more actively were the point men/women to target and "shatter" Hubbard's enemies? Of course, there is a difference, but it is only in degree, not in principle.

    It's not a binary world. There is often easy way to categorize others or oneself as "GOOD" or "BAD". Especially in Scientology, when all the linesare very purposely blurred since the very first moment one reads a book, takes a course or gets auditing.

    Does Gerry deserve a full and factual revelation by Mike Rinder of what took place. Absolutely!

    Will Gerry get what he wants if he tries to neatly regiment everything into a legalistically stifling, evidential, binary, Joe vs. Doe, litigation paradigm? Well, the answer to that is found by counting how many decades such an approach has been rebuffed and frustrated Gerry's earnest efforts to get the truth on record.

    I've been extensively involved in litigation at times. It's a very unsatisfactory pursuit if one is seeking swift, certain or complete justice. Often settlements, by any designation (compromise, settlement, et al) are the very best way to get through or around such unwieldy & manifestly unjust situations. It's a personal choice.

    I still think that with Leah aboard, there is every chance of taking the issue of "FAIR GAME" head on. Not in the traditionally simplistic ways that often start and end by pointing at the Fair Gamers and screaming "EVIL!" Rather, by dissecting and putting into full view the reality of how evil people AND good people both end up as fanatical fair gaming sect sadists. That is the opportunity at hand. Mike, being a lovely and likable individual, is one person who can bring to light how one ends up lying, scheming and attacking innocent persons. He was a kid when he was indoctrinated, so there is one "get out of jail card" right there that saves him from burning in eternal hell, right?

    Obviously, such a segment on THE AFTERMATH series would not be a "gotcha!" ambush of Mike or any other former fair gamers who are willing to participate.

    If done well, such a show has every promising of being one of the greatest moments of whistleblowing revelation to accelerate the cult's demise.
  3. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    That's a fine idea.
    I like it.
  4. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    The idea is stunning!:happydance:
  5. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    You're dreaming, HH, if you think Gerry/Carolyn are ever going to stop posting their tl;dr dry legal posts about Mike Rinder and they'll both work to resolve this, but it was a pleasant dream. :cloud9:

    Gerry/Carolyn knows this is the correct tech to handle the situation. They hammered out all incorrect suggestions and know that if they keep closing the door on incorrect applications, this tech will work and they will win.


    Seriously, though, somebody on the Gerry/Carolyn team is stuck in a repetitive rut. I feel for Gerry. He's done a lot and I also get frustrated sometimes with the general stories from some of the ex-OSA execs who can admit they did many horrible things but rarely give the specific details about any of them.

    When Gerry/Carolyn keeps hitting Mike Rinder with legal jargon on the forums, though, it comes across as a threat, and that's a surefire way to guarantee that Mike won't respond. The conflict exists in a sort of perpetual motion while standing in place, but with a confident illusion that the prize is just around the corner. Wile E Coyote never does catch that wily wabbit, but for some reason he always believes those Acme gadgets will do the job.

  6. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Coyote vs road runner Elmer Fudd Vs wabbit. After star rate, fix post. Mimsey, ESMB cramming officer

    Edit - I think Gerry should move on. It ain't gonna happen. MB

  7. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Yes, a common problem.

    Hence mediators, diplomats, negotiators, agents, lawyers and all of the many other dreaded "third parties" that help two warring parties find some common ground, compromise or agreeable terms to resolve it.

    On this one, Mike has no incentives to "turn himself in" to what he may well perceive as another (in a decades-long) string of interrogations, confessionals or sec-checks. However, he has quite brilliantly done just that with his blog and now his co-starring role in Leah's reality doc-series. Seems that he is extremely adept and willing to do self-inspection and has done so as much or more than any other ex-scientologist I imagine.

    But, those "crimes" of going after Gerry. That's some sticky business, made infinitely more prickly by the carpet bombing demands Gerry has righteously asked for. As many have said already, "demands" and trying to get Mike to chose his responses to tough BINARY formatted questions is a no-starter.

    If it was me in Mike's place, I don't think I would want to be put in that position--to have to choose from a hard-wired, binary-based set of discovery questions.

    Honestly, I love and admire what Gerry has done. A hero. But the way the questions and interrogatories are framed is, let's say--extreme. They seem to be based on a value system that "labels" each minute action as good or bad, if they "serve" the intentions of Hubbard/Miscavige.

    I probably would answer Gerry this way: "Hey, Gerry, I am very willing to answer any questions you have. Let's start with you submitting the questions to me and I'll see if I can provide the missing information that you so rightly deserve. As you know, I am deeply sorry for anything and everything I did to contribute and advance the fair gaming that was done to you. I am a different person now and you may observe that I have been engaged in many actions and activities against Miscavige, OSA, the COS, Hubbard and the practice of Scientology itself. If your questions help me do more to stop the horrific abuses, I would give it my best efforts and also would hope that you gain some measure of relief and satisfaction from it. All My Best, HH"

    Honestly, I think Mike has already "confessed" but clearly he hasn't given the "time, place, form and event" that a victim of the Fair Gaming needs and/or feels they need to get closure.

    I think the magic of this is in the venue. I honestly believe Gerry can get what he seeks, if the venue and format of this is done suitably.

    Posted with all good wishes and respect to both Gerry and Mike! hh
  8. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    Years ago Gerry provided easy steps for Marty and Mike to resolve any differences with him:

    1. Communicate to me.

    2. Debrief to me and my legal representatives.

    3. Execute declarations that contain facts elicited in the debrief.

    4. Make themselves available to testify in any legal proceeding to correct the injustices or situations they helped create.​
  9. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Great photo!

    And, a good plan (above).

    If it works.

    Rather--if it worked.

    Wouldn't a different more informal approach be easier to start with. It kind of sounds like a first date where one of the parties needs a marriage commitment before they agree to the date.

    All that legal mumbo-jumbo could certainly come later if they were at least talking.

    Neither is right or wrong--but if Gerry wants to push the action to a result, then one of the two of them would have to come down off whatever posturing or position they are taking. That certainly doesn't appear to be Mike at this point. Thus, the proverbial ball seems to be in Gerry's court to make something happen or fuggedaboudit.

    I say these things having spent decades negotiating deals, structuring ventures, entering into settlements (both sides) on disputes (or worse) and also learning from brilliant lawyers how the court system works (by unfortunately having to use it, lol). Thus, I fully understand what Gerry is asking for. It's the standard kill or be killed of the adversarial litigation system. Unavoidable in many cases, but not necessarily the best place to hang out very long and call home.

    For the record, I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV or the internet. lol
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  10. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Since I am such a trouble maker I will plead for my 2017 prediction and suggest a Senate Judicial hearing with Gerry, Mike, Leah and HH as key whistleblowers giving testimony.
    Trump needs to get the government doing what " we the people want" . Get rid of the Scientology terrorist!
  11. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    A) No lawyer worth his fees would ever allow Mike to participate in any of the above.
    B) It would have zero value anyway, because the C of S would deny ever having ever authorized any such actions, reducing it to a he said /she said proposition.
  12. scooter

    scooter Gold Meritorious Patron

    My sentiments exactly.:yes:

    It leaves Mike/Marty/whoever wide open to ANYONE then coming after them for damages suffered.:omg:

    And, as pointed out above, the cult would simply lawyer up and sidestep any liability with whatever shore story they need. Cult wins, everyone else loses.:duh:

    Mike (and Marty) have already been to the FBI and told lots. To repeat any of that publicly would (IANAL) open themselves to civil actions by anyone who has been aggrieved by their actions as cult lieutenants.:footbullet:

    I have been able to talk about the stuff that I did with impunity because it was tabled under Parliamentary Privilege by Sen. Xenophon on my behalf. Otherwise I'd be a LOT more circumspect in what I said. I have no wish to be put through a legal nightmare by cult flunkies simply because Hubbard made it part of the Sacred Scriptures of $cientology to always get revenge NO MATTER WHAT THE COST on anyone who criticises Hisself or His brainfarts.:screwy:

    I know of exes who've been pursued for the sole purpose of cult revenge and it's not a pretty story at all. Mike is an older guy with a young family just starting out in life all over again - why the hell would he risk ALL of that for anyone?:confused2:
    Intelligence likes this.
  13. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    You may be entirely right, unless a savvy criminal atty is well assured that the statute of limitation has expired. But, then, why would Mike R. be interested to pay for such expenses? Cui Bono?

    The degree of difficulty in Gerry gaining affidavits or declarations by Mike depends entirely on how ambitious he is and what result he is determined to achieve. To do what? Expunge his record? To reverse the judgment? To undo what sanctions/penalties have been leveraged against him to date? To be free to travel in the US without threat of arrest? To dismiss all of the COS victories "with prejudice" (i.e. the COS would have no recourse)?

    And to support your point further, why would Mike Rinder volunteer for what could be a years-long, protracted and expensive legal/courtroom battle between Gerry and the COS? What if he has to work to support his family, who is going to pay him for all the lost time and travel and expenses?

    Now this all sounds formidably impossible. But in legal matters all things are possible. There are loopholes in the loopholes, if the lawyering is good enough, lol. Also there are "DEALS" and "STIPULATIONS" and all kinds of cool things that can be done amongst the parties (including the DA in order to grant immunity to Mike in advance of any sworn testimony he volunteers.

    I just don't know how Gerry can even approach solving these kind of issues if he isn't even talking to Mike Rinder. Rinder, it seems quite evident, is holding the cards that Gerry needs to build a Royal Flush or whatever winning hand he is aiming for. For Mike to give up any of his cards requires that he agrees to the bargain--and that means that he gets consideration in return. Gerry is hardly offering him any incentive, now that nobody (outside the COS) is threatening to cancel anybody's "ETERNITY" any more, lol.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  14. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Plus, Mike risks providing information that might give cause for another 3rd party to initiate litigation even if their grounds are weak, unfounded or specious.
  15. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Looks like the "Scientology tech" described by Jesse Prince in a 1998 affidavit is one part of Scientology that "works":

    "It is incumbent on this and every court to realize the amount of deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation and outright criminality that Scientology will employ to hide the truth about their criminal activities. They will spend any amount of money to do this. I know because I was part of it for years. I received orders to break the law. I issued orders to break the law. I got others to break the law, and then I helped to hide these criminal activities just as they are hiding them now. In fact, the tactic is one of the most coercive used by the Scientology hierarchy: to involve members in criminal acts for which they are then liable, which then prevents the person from speaking out" [about acts for which they might be liable]. ​

    How many people have been affected by this bit of "applied Scientology"? The only chance of knowing - even a fraction of what has occurred - would be another surprise FBI raid.
  16. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    ^^Yes. And for what?

    At one time I consulted a knowledgeable attorney with a specialty in that area of law about any way people like Gerry Armstrong or David Mayo could beat their gag orders. The answer was a solid, "No" because they accepted money when they signed the agreement with COS and the court and everyone involved agreed in writing to the payment and transaction. Done deal.

    He said the only possible legal recourse was with a strong team of Constitutional specialist attorneys challenging business law used in conjunction with religious rights in order to limit a person's right of free speech. Even then, he thought the odds were slim to none.

    So what does Gerry want? To come back to America without any fines or charges? That may not be completely impossible, but Mike Rinder does not represent COS anymore so there's no point trying to negotiate it with him.

    If I were in Mike's shoes, I wouldn't touch the legal end of this. As others here have pointed out, the risks and damages to Mike and his family far exceed any potential benefit to anyone.

    The Gerry/Caroline duo needs to shift gears. There appears to be more than one goal here and I think Mike can only satisfy one of them - and not the legal goal, that's for sure.
  17. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Wasn't even thinking of Gerry Armstrong when I quoted Jesse Prince from 1998.

    IMO, it's desirable that Prince's warning be brought to the attention of the public as much as possible.

    The same tactic - described by Prince - is still being used by Scientology today.

    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  18. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    POTUS TRUMP could issue a couple of executive orders.

    0-Gerry Armstrong is to be awarded the 1st " Freedom from Lies "
    Medal and a complimentary all paid tour of all Ideal Orges whereat David Miscavige will be required to scream out Hip hip horror at the end of Gerry's ' the history of Scientology and the coup' presentation.

    1- the IRS must follow the court decision in Hernandez vs Commissioner

    2- David Miscavige must appear before the house of representatives and answer WTF about
    all the false media regarding greatest expansion and SUMP
    B) demonstrate to each representative : face ripping and TR SLAPDOWN

    3- PUT ALL Scientology organizations on a radical terrorism watchlist.

    4- turn over all Ideal Orgs to a charity foundation where all ex members get all expenses paid vacation until the fair market value tab reaches 47x their previous donation. David will be required to put on hourly ' selfie over boarding ' in the lobbies and Tom Cruise and John Travolta must tie their Freedom Medals to his ankles and wrists

    5) setting 4 in titanium as a religious sacrement.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  19. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    My so unasked for 2 cents worth of opinion :

    IMHO, Gerry Armstrong did us all a great favor & did so at significant personal risks.

    That Mike Rinder was in charge of campaigns against Gerry seems evident.

    That is how many decades old & still being held onto ?

    Yet, even on my little personal level, I'm going to let others forgive Rinder ( I ain't ) for what he did to so so many on behalf of scn.

    Marty is a whole different deal to me. I don't lump him exactly with Rinder as when he had the lovers spat with the dwarf he had a paddle boat in the canal & a golf cart out in the street.

    And we all damn well know when OSA goes after somebody that don't really use a paddle boat.

    Anyway, Gerry & Mike will or won't work it out.

    Gerry will always be a real hero to me & Rinder might one day come clean, really come clean.

    Oh, and I bail out of those really long winded posts . . . . . always .