Getting People to Leave

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I'll admit it.

When I first left the Church, I wanted everyone to leave with me.

I was trying to "expose the con" to as many people as I could. I wanted to create a mass exodus. I wanted to set them free.

It didn't work at all. People became even more entrenched.

Since then, I've come to see that we all practice self-delusion to some degree in our lives. We all cling to beliefs. At the beginning of my involvement, it would have been a step down to leave. After a while, however it was definitely a step up to get out because I had finally graduated.

So here are some questions to ponder:

1. Do you think it is ethical to try to get people to leave the Church of Scientology?

2. How should that best be approached?
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
1. Do you think it is ethical to try to get people to leave the Church of Scientology?

I'm a little mixed, but for the most part, yes. I think that it is ethical. Especially when they keep forking over their money to the CoS.

2. How should that best be approached?

Ask them questions. Like these:

http://askearth.com/go/view_request?request=107806
http://www.scientology-lies.com/questionsforscns.html
http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/deprogramming-questions.htm

-Steve
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
So here are some questions to ponder:

1. Do you think it is ethical to try to get people to leave the Church of Scientology?

2. How should that best be approached?

Is it 'ethical'? As long as you're not talking 'Scientology Ethics'; sure :)

But it's also impractical and *very* dependent on how you do it.

1) The part of the 'Tech' that 'works' is the Mind Fuck, and yes, it's *designed* to reinforce itself at any sign of tampering.

2) The things that *might* work, such as forcible 'de-programming' are abhorent and usually illegal.

3) Under most circumstances direct 'attempts' to 'get people out' would be at the very least rude; almost always pointless; and always manipulative and socially objectionable. At the very least they give 'critics' a bad name, and, I'm glad that so few see that as their contribution.

From everything I've seen, Scientologists leave on their own timetable (almost all do,) for their own reasons (usually having to do with a 'Church' atrocity against them or theirs,) not because somebody 'got them out'.

The solution to Scientology is to prosecute the crimes committed in its name and the people committing those crimes.

Getting people 'out' is putting the cart before the horse; take the Cult away and it won't matter (much) who's 'still in'.

Zinj
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
Is it 'ethical'? As long as you're not talking 'Scientology Ethics'; sure :)

But it's also impractical and *very* dependent on how you do it.

1) The part of the 'Tech' that 'works' is the Mind Fuck, and yes, it's *designed* to reinforce itself at any sign of tampering.

2) The things that *might* work, such as forcible 'de-programming' are abhorent and usually illegal.

3) Under most circumstances direct 'attempts' to 'get people out' would be at the very least rude; almost always pointless; and always manipulative and socially objectionable. At the very least they give 'critics' a bad name, and, I'm glad that so few see that as their contribution.

From everything I've seen, Scientologists leave on their own timetable (almost all do,) for their own reasons (usually having to do with a 'Church' atrocity against them or theirs,) not because somebody 'got them out'.

The solution to Scientology is to prosecute the crimes committed in its name and the people committing those crimes.

Getting people 'out' is putting the cart before the horse; take the Cult away and it won't matter (much) who's 'still in'.

Zinj

That's true. I got really defensive a couple of times on ARS. I nearly left that forum thrice, but destiny kept bringing me back to it.

However, it took a long time to really realize what my Church was doing. I finally realized... why am I explaining this all away? I shouldn't have to justify it. It shouldn't even be an issue. Then things just started coming together. It's like I put on new eyes. WHAM!

-Steve
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
It is not necessary to spend your time to get others to leave the Church.

A person must have more pleasure than pain to survive.

People will not pay for pain or "can't have's".

The nerve of that business to force everyone to purchase more entertainment by introducing GAOT with threats is a bad enough indicator to suggest the Church is now selling pain, losses, humiliation, threats, and tricks, and punishment. They tax their followers now by convincing them what they already paid for wasn't worth a damn! The retrains on GAOT and putting the OT8s back on OT7!

Where do you suppose they will find consumers?

We right here right now are watching that place go out of business at a rapid rate.

You don't have to convince people to leave! They have blocked off the front door of the Fort Harrison so no one can get in!

They have punished the people that believed starting from the Sea Org right down to the streets.


David Miscavige has dedicated his entire life to unmocking Scientology and he has an army to assist him.

Sit back and grab a bag of popcorn. :drama:

People would rather keep their reactive minds than subscribe to the Church's abuses.

That is a pretty bad indicator!

DM pushed the envelope too far, he over estimated what he had to offer for sale.

Beyond that, the world outside of the Church has been in an evolution and has gotten better and better and better while the scene inside of the Church has become more and more brutal and less rewarding, even though the people improving the world have reactive minds.

Because the people outside are not living in a dream where nobody has a heart.

It is also becoming apparent that not everyone has a reactive mind.

The ones that do are not likely to have the money to pay to get rid of it.

So, someone has to be the turkey at Thanksgiving.

So what chance do you see of a future?
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
People will not pay for pain or "can't have's".

People would rather keep their reactive minds than subscribe to the Church's abuses.

<snips>

First; you're wrong. People *will* pay for pain and 'can't haves' and humiliation and domination and all kinds of silly stuff.

They can; they do. It's a huge market segment. Some require a 'purpose' behind it, like the Sea Orgers; the saner ones just go for the gusto and hire somebody to beat and humiliate them.

Second; there *is* no 'reactive mind', until one is 'trained' to 'mock it up'.

The 'reactive mind' and 'case' and 'ruin' are the *rationalizations* for the 'Church' abuses, which is all it really has to offer.

Zinj
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
I have a friend who is very successful in gettng people out of the C of S.

This friend is a highly Classed Scn Auditor and an "OT" so he has what is called "altitude" in Scn.

What this friend does is quite simple. He knows that what is most ingrained
in Scio's is the policy on KSW and that the idea of "squirreling" is absolutely
abhorent to them.

This person does not use the internet (at first) and has both the original LRH
books/tapes and the new GAT versions availabe.

My friend calmly shows each Scio the original LRH stuff and then the new
GAT stuff and has the person "cog" that squirreling is going on by Scn management.

Then he goes to the internet and shows the person the stats. The person is shown that the stats are in fact down and that Int Management is lying.

At this point the person is ready to start looking at the internet on his own
because they are pissed off.

My friend does not try to get them out of SCN at all. He tries to get them
out of the C of S first, and get them looking. Some of them will go to the freezone, others will leave altogether. But the idea is to just get them willing to look at what is going on and allowing them to find out more, at their own pace. He uses Scn words and "tech" to get them OUT. He's reported to me that almost one for one, when he does this, people leave.

This makes sense, knowing how indoctrinated Scios are, and how many thought stopping techniques are implanted in the Scn mindfuck, the only way to get them out, is to use Scn's own policies and ideas to show them the truth.

Patty P
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Patty -

I think "gradients" apply just as strongly to getting out of Scientology as they do to getting in.

When I was a dedicated Churchie, many people told me things that were just too "out-gradient" and they never really registered with me. I even read whole books like "Messiah or Madman" and they just zoomed right over my head.

I think that was because I had not recognized any damage that Scientology had done to me, only improvement. I had a very strong personal interest in continuing in Scientology, and so anything that worked against that was definitely "suppressive".

It wasn't until I could become aware of real personal damage, and see that damage as coming from Scientology, that I was able to shore up the courage required to leave.

And it does take courage.

I remember the process began with that KSW mindset you mention. I had purchased an IAS annual membership at the $300 rate, and then in the middle of my membership, they changed the rate to $450 and canceled my 20% discount.

I said, "Wait a minute. You and I had an agreement that I would have a membership for one year at this rate, and I would get these discounts, and now you change the price so my discount is canceled?"

I queried all the way to ED Int.

Yes, was the answer.

That set me on a review of all membership policies, beginning with the HASI HCOPLs and then coming up through the IAS issues. I found rampant "squirreling" throughout. Needless to say, I was appalled.

When IAS reges came in and held us hostage after course, like they usually did, I would start to ask them about my problem. They knew nothing about it and said they didn't have anything to do with my problem.

I said, "Wait a minute. You come in here and want me to "take total responsibility" for Scientology internationally and then you say that something your own org is doing has nothing to do with you?"

Then I became more and more aware of the bullshit, and all the hypocrisy.

I started thinking about how my life would be without Scientology in it. Could I survive? I began to see that my life would be a lot simpler, with a lot less hassle and bullshit and people lording over me all the time.

Around the same time, I started reading books and websites about critical thinking. I had completed the Data Series course about a year earlier, and continued to be interested in studying more about logic. I began to see that the Data Series was truly kindergarten stuff, and it wasn't designed to help you really think for yourself at all, compare to real logic and critical thinking. Only when you can compare the two can you see that. One is for getting the stats up in a Scn org - which it is very good at - and the other is for learning the skills you need to think for yourself.

When regges started trying to get me to go even further in debt and declare bankruptcy, I began to become aware of the fact that I was getting fucked-with more and more. I think my awareness of being fucked-with was raising more and more. I had always been fucked-with. I just complied before and didn't notice that I was being fucked with.

I was on the BC and LRH had waited until then to tell me there was no God. I became aware that I had specifically asked, and had been told when I first joined, that Scientology does believe in God. I began to spot other things, too.

I told myself that since a lot of the information I had been given when I was first making my decisions to become a Scientologist had been found to be false, then I would undertake a full review of my participation in Scientology. I'll do a full doubt formula, I told myself.

I said to myself, "All right. If there is another side to this, then I deserve to be able to make up my own mind about it. After all, Scientology is the central fascination of my life. Why not read everything I can about it?" So then, I finally allowed myself to get on the Internet.

I found the location of "uplines" on the Internet and I drove out to the desert to see it for myself. As I drove by it, I thought, "I'm committing an overt by allowing myself to know about where the leaders of my church live." The irony..hypocrisy...idiocy... of the thought really struck home. I began to realize that there was so much I was involved in now as a Scientologist that I had NEVER signed up for.

Even at that time, though, I was sure that Miscavage was an SP and that he had squirreled my friend LRH's Scientology.

I think the loyalty to LRH is really the last to go. There are definitely earlier gradients that have to be traveled through before you can see the whole picture.

But, I think your friend is right.

The route out of the Church of Scientology begins with KSW.
 
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freet43

Patron with Honors
I have a friend who is very successful in gettng people out of the C of S.

This friend is a highly Classed Scn Auditor and an "OT" so he has what is called "altitude" in Scn.

What this friend does is quite simple. He knows that what is most ingrained
in Scio's is the policy on KSW and that the idea of "squirreling" is absolutely
abhorent to them.

This person does not use the internet (at first) and has both the original LRH
books/tapes and the new GAT versions availabe.

My friend calmly shows each Scio the original LRH stuff and then the new
GAT stuff and has the person "cog" that squirreling is going on by Scn management.

Then he goes to the internet and shows the person the stats. The person is shown that the stats are in fact down and that Int Management is lying.

At this point the person is ready to start looking at the internet on his own
because they are pissed off.

My friend does not try to get them out of SCN at all. He tries to get them
out of the C of S first, and get them looking. Some of them will go to the freezone, others will leave altogether. But the idea is to just get them willing to look at what is going on and allowing them to find out more, at their own pace. He uses Scn words and "tech" to get them OUT. He's reported to me that almost one for one, when he does this, people leave.

This makes sense, knowing how indoctrinated Scios are, and how many thought stopping techniques are implanted in the Scn mindfuck, the only way to get them out, is to use Scn's own policies and ideas to show them the truth.

Patty P

Pooks.

I'd really like to get ahold of this person - could you ask him to email me or get me his contact info back channel?

Since I've been out for 28 years, and now recently getting into the FZ, what you write is so very real to me.

IMO, what this person is doing is exactly the correct action.

Beyond that, people can make up their own minds what they want to do, or not do.

Although I've seen numerous examples of the altered tech, getting more and more specifics would really be useful for some cycles I plan to work on soon.

It is specifically because of those pending cycles that I am not fully out yet on this board.

We can PM - if you have any concerns about who I am, as I believe we have a mutual friend or two that may vouch for me.

Thanks.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
I just wanted to interject one little thing. A major tech point here. Not only are the VIII's made to go back onto OT VII, but they are also getting their Clear status reviewed and in some cases, they are found not Clear (!) and they have to get intensives to get it fixed up (called a 16 May, because that is the date of the NOT's issue covering the remedy), which is costly. The cost of NOTS intensives. (V, VI, VI and VIII's can all be audited by Class IX auditors). The Bridge is getting pretty expensive, as if it weren't already!
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
16 May what? Was this an LRH issue?

I would also like to know from anyone who went to do OT8 if:

A. They were told OT8 was a product of L. Ron Hubbard and they believed they were buying L. Ron Hubbard manufacture/discovery.

B. If there were any L. Ron Hubbard hand written materials on the course.

C. If they found out OT8 was not a Hubbard manufacture but the manufacture of someone else, if they would feel mislead.

And, I ask this because ot7 and ot8 have been changed since being released, so it seems someone in the Church must be guessing or experimenting on what these ot level actually are! None of the other tech was changed at any point, and the important issues were in Hubbard writing.

I suspect the Int Execs have done a BAIT AND SWITCH.
 
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OHTEEATE

Silver Meritorious Patron
OT 7 and 8

I can tell you for sure, that about 30% of all OT 7s were brought back to Flag and told they were not Clear, and run through the 16 May PL Advanced Program, at around $50,000-$100,000 each. This is from my wife who was a Solo NOTs D of P, and on 7 at the time. As the evolution was being finished up in 2005, they were straining to get the place filled up with ot 4s and 5s to replace the gravy train of "not Clears".
As far as versions of OT 8, I have no evidence as I have not talked to anyone who did OT 8 on Maiden Voyage, to verify if the version they did was the same I did in Dec. 88. The one I did had NO LRH hand written anything on it. Until that opportunity arises, I'm sticking to the "other versions" are fakes. I have seen the EP openly stated correctly on the internet. I have also seen write ups that show the people who did it had no clue what they were supposed to do, and it is no wonder they got no gains from it. I mean, if you are told to do XCV and you report no gains on CVX, maybe you need to restudy your materials? Mike
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, there have been a few different versions and I think even the Church acknowledges that now.

I don't think Hubbard left an organized A to B OT8 pack, unless the Int Execs are dislexic.

I don't know who put together the different ot7 routes, the different ot8 routes, who suddenly found missing rundowns or whatever.

Which courses were put together by Hubbard and which were not.

But there seems to be some confusion from inside the Church about what these standard tech OT levels are.

So I am assuming people are compiling bits and pieces from here and there and packaging and repackaging them.

But it is obvious there wasn't a straight forward pack made as in the earlier ot levels and handed over.

Or, if there was, someone mussed up the order of the papers.

If there are plenty of OT levels above OT8 creating true OT's clear of character, it seems nobody at the top in the Church has done them yet?
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
I can tell you for sure, that about 30% of all OT 7s were brought back to Flag and told they were not Clear, and run through the 16 May PL Advanced Program, at around $50,000-$100,000 each. This is from my wife who was a Solo NOTs D of P, and on 7 at the time.


I would like to hear the opinion of you and/or Donna of how these "recycled Clears" has affected the "number of Clears" statistic.

You know these guys are being "recounted" on the stat.
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dear Patty P.,

Very good advice on your friend getting people out.

Where else do they go?

Do they go down to the Babtist Church where they are taught heaven and hell after leaving the CofS?

Do they go to Buddhidst temples?

After they are taught by your friend that Scientology was of no value to them, where do they go next?

Where did you go next?

If nobody else was of any value to you may I ask what roads you all were able to open to others to direct them towards truth?

Did you have a better explanation?

What are your answers to this maddness?

If you did get these people off the road to halluscination, then what is the road to truth in your eyes?

Actually, it's an open question for everyone that decides to not practice Scientology anymore.

Do you go somewhere else now?

Did you find something more workable for self improvment or are you done with the self improvment industry altogether?

Did anyone here return to a former religion?

Pick up the Anthony Robbins tapes?

Follow another course that was helpful?
 
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Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Well, there have been a few different versions and I think even the Church acknowledges that now.

I don't think Hubbard left an organized A to B OT8 pack, unless the Int Execs are dislexic.

I don't know who put together the different ot7 routes, the different ot8 routes, who suddenly found missing rundowns or whatever.

Which courses were put together by Hubbard and which were not.


From what I know, there hasn't been a course or a rundown actually "put together by Hubbard" since the 70s.

Maybe even before that.

LRH never saw the materials on CCRD. (I saw a dispatch frm a senior exec on that). KTL was piloted by New World Corps and compilated at Int. (And where on earth did LOC come from?)

FPRD was definitely created at management level and I seriously doubt LRH ever saw the materials or approved them.

New OT I was created and developed uplines.

All the new Superpower rundowns have been being piloted for years led by Int, including the Running Program.

Even NOTs was written by Mayo.

I have to be somewhat skeptical about how much of any of the OT Levels that have been released in the last 20 years or will be released in the future were "put together by LRH".
 
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Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Dear Patty P.,

Very good advice on your friend getting people out.

Where else do they go?

anywhere else - after Scientology even santeria seems to have a better chance of being right..


Do they go down to the Babtist Church where they are taught heaven and hell after leaving the CofS?

Why the baptists? why not any of the major religions? They all have that in common

Do they go to Buddhidst temples?

see below

After they are taught by your friend that Scientology was of no value to them, where do they go next?

anywhere but religion. Scientology is merely one of the more grotesque and egregious "religions". I guess getting as far away as one can from the teachings of a fat bigamist con artist would be a good step 1.

If nobody else was of any value to you may I ask what roads you all were able to open to others to direct them towards truth?

why do you feel that people need to be directed toward truth?

Did you have a better explanation?

for what?

What are your answers to this maddness?

Huh?


Actually, it's an open question for everyone that decides to not practice Scientology anymore.

Do you go somewhere else now?

nope.

Did you find something more workable for self improvment or are you done with the self improvment industry altogether?

Scientology and self improvement? That's an oxymoron.

Did anyone here return to a former religion?

atheist before I got in, atheist after getting out. Atheist while in.

Pick up the Anthony Robbins tapes?

Listened to one once.

Follow another course that was helpful?

yep, living life.
 
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