Getting People to Leave

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Hi TI,

Speaking for myself-- I think there's truth all around us and that truth pertains to spirituality. I touched upon it as a Catholic, I touched upon it as a Scn'ist.

I don't consider that there is an "after Scn" for myself and possibly for certain others.

There is an AFTER COFS, though.

But I don't accept all ideas in Scn. That's a lesson I learned as a Catholic. I saw some concepts that were obviously untrue. So I thought, this is being presented as a package deal...but it's really not, or shouldn't be.

Then I got sucked into Scn. Not just CofS, but Scn. Hubbard wanted people to buy into the whole thing, even stuff he didn't even write. Even stuff that did not work, that was contra to other stuff.

He set up mechanisms to enforce that- Ron is Source, Ron is never wrong, no mutual outruds, no natter, it's a high crime to tell someone you are leaving staff- all so people would not figure out what was going on.

So at the end of the day what I truly have is only what I have experienced for myself- which, ironically, Hubbard did say.

But I will take it a step further. I've been studying yoga a bit and am now studying Buddhism. I have only CofS' and LRH's word for it that Scn does it better and that yoga will yoke you to your body and that the Buddhists made mistakes, yadda yadda.

I've been finding some really good things in it that are things LRH tried to address. I think the Buddhists do it better, sometimes.

I had taken issue with my Dad who went through the same thing. He wanted to study everything, mix it up into some big cosmic soup. Well, I thought, you can't do that because not everything is true.

Well, that's fine but how are you gonna know what is and what isn't true if ya don't look?

Teresa of Avila never did Scn but she had visions and she touched the Divine.

My Wiccan friend has met the Goddess. Or a goddess...

I believe it!!

So I will not close my ears, mind or heart to spirit, but I also won't ditch things I know for a fact worked for me.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Mick,

I personally think (and that and 4.00 bucks-inflation, ya know- will get you a latte at Starbucks) that a person ultimately has to direct him or her SELF toward truth.

We both know there's a pitfall with those who seek to lead us or show us...not all gurus, teachers, clergy or cult leaders have been evil, fucked up or just plain wrong, but it sure happens a lot.

Maybe in the end it's a matter of listening to what's within.

What's the sound of one hand clapping?

Fluffy pitiably asking for more chocolate and coffee, of course!!
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
I don't know if I could ever be good at this.

Last week I talked to a cab driver that is from Clear Water. I asked him how Scientology is doing these days. Surprise! He said that he is a Scientologist.

He didn't seem to be aware that CofS is decimated compared to what it was in the 1970s. He said that it is all going great... Missions booming, etc.

I told him that I was once just like him. I told him some of my background in SCN (I used all the SCN lingo). He was surprised and interested. Eventually I suggested that he go on the internet and look up "Missions Holder's Conference" since I mentioned this to him and he is on-lines at a Mission.

Maybe I didn't handle this well but I gave it my best shot.

BTW, he said that I was one of his best customers (I think he meant personality wise) and that he should be paid $300 per hour to have to listen to some of the crazies that he has had. I laughed and so did he.
 

moontaco

Patron with Honors
I don't know if I could ever be good at this.

Last week I talked to a cab driver that is from Clear Water. I asked him how Scientology is doing these days. Surprise! He said that he is a Scientologist.

He didn't seem to be aware that CofS is decimated compared to what it was in the 1970s. He said that it is all going great... Missions booming, etc.

I told him that I was once just like him. I told him some of my background in SCN (I used all the SCN lingo). He was surprised and interested. Eventually I suggested that he go on the internet and look up "Missions Holder's Conference" since I mentioned this to him and he is on-lines at a Mission.

Maybe I didn't handle this well but I gave it my best shot.
It sounds to me like you handled it fine. I don't know that you could do much more when you are briefly talking to a stranger you'll most likely never see again. If you inspired his interest and told him to get on the net, I think you did a lot!
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't know if I could ever be good at this.

Last week I talked to a cab driver that is from Clear Water. I asked him how Scientology is doing these days. Surprise! He said that he is a Scientologist.

He didn't seem to be aware that CofS is decimated compared to what it was in the 1970s. He said that it is all going great... Missions booming, etc.

I told him that I was once just like him. I told him some of my background in SCN (I used all the SCN lingo). He was surprised and interested. Eventually I suggested that he go on the internet and look up "Missions Holder's Conference" since I mentioned this to him and he is on-lines at a Mission.

Maybe I didn't handle this well but I gave it my best shot.

BTW, he said that I was one of his best customers (I think he meant personality wise) and that he should be paid $300 per hour to have to listen to some of the crazies that he has had. I laughed and so did he.

Great handle, PG.

Getting people to look is best done gently - light touch.

The majority of people led themselves into Scio.

So it is best they lead themselves back out.

Getting out of Scio is actually a process......it has many steps.

Often once you have decide on taking the Scio route you build many defenses against detractors - so many that you end up disconnected from the real world - where your only friends are fellow Scio's.

The hardest step is in breaking that connection - especially if your life skills are weak.

It is a daunting task to rebuild a life without any support system. Without friends, without a frame of reference, especially when your greatest this lifetime commitment turned out to be so wrong.

Partial Truths can stick you hard on the track - - Scio is full of partial Truths - it takes a long time to rise above those partial Truths to find the greater Truths.

During that seeking for a better way - there is a lot of despair and anguish - making someone wrong does not help much.

Alan
 
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beyond_horizons

Patron Meritorious
Often once you have decide on taking the Scio route you build many defenses against detractors - so many that you end up disconnected from the real world - where your only friends are fellow Scio's.

The hardest step is in breaking that connection - especially if your life skills are weak.

It is a daunting task to rebuild a life without any support system. Without friends, without a frame of reference, especially when your greatest this lifetime commitment turned out to be so wrong.

During that seeking for a better way - there is a lot of despair and anguish -.

Partial Truths can stick you hard on the track - - Scio is full of partial Truths - it takes a long time to rise above those partial Truths to find the greater Truths.

No truer words were ever spoken! :)

making someone wrong does not help much.

Alan
Thats true also to an extent; but WISI, it also depends on the level of indoctrination of the individual trained to confront and make you wrong in the name of hubbard and if that person has been casually exploring the subject or causatively trying to exploit you with various aspects of the subject.

For those who try to form fit everything spiritual, positive, or progressive as elements of scientology going mainstream, or hubbard's stuff going mainstream, making that person wrong can be great sport. A leveling of the playing field ... if you will!

Alan, what I don’t understand is, you were a jock! Why didn’t you take the guy down when you had the chance? :) Personally you would have saved ton s and tons and tons of folks their sanity, lives, and fortunes! :ohmy:
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Alan, what I don?t understand is, you were a jock! Why didn?t you take the guy down when you had the chance? :) Personally you would have saved ton s and tons and tons of folks their sanity, lives, and fortunes! :ohmy:

Up until mid 1975 you could do both sides of the whole bridge up to Class VIII for under $10,000. This included a 100 hours of processing.

This was several years of training and processing. In relationship to any other schooling out there Scio was by far the most cost effective.

Then came the insane 10% a month increases.

By 1977 most of the people who had built Scio had left or were on the side lines.

The Scio of the early 70's was nothing like Scio of the late 70's.

Internally there was a war going on between the GO and the SO.......the GO had actually taken control of Scio.

It was not until 1981 that this was discovered - at the same time LRH was near death - and definitely in hiding.

As for taking a stand - I did - the 1982 Schism was the result.

That Schism has been growing wider and wider.

Most of the internet activity stemmed from that Schism.

Strangely the upper levels of scio set todays Scio in place.

The CC, OT I, OT II, OT III, OT V, and OT VII are all effect "done to you" type processes.

The SP - PTS Tech is all effect "done to you" type processing.

Bogeymen abound - only the leader of Scio can save you! :no:

There are 10,000s of players in this game each contributing to the way it is - it is game in evolution - all games are composites of processes - the question is - will the positive processors or the negative processors win?:eyeroll:

Alan
 
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The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Very well said Alan.

As an aside, only love can conquor hate.

The ones of us that are still reaching out to help and care about the guy in front of us, whether we be in Scientology or in all the other games on the board, are the ones that are keeping the positive alive.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
ALAN
Internally there was a war going on between the GO and the SO.......the GO had actually taken control of Scio.

BB
Was that a war between LRH and Mary Sue?
 

Veda

Sponsor
ALAN
Internally there was a war going on between the GO and the SO.......the GO had actually taken control of Scio.

BB
Was that a war between LRH and Mary Sue?

It's necessary to consider all the available evidence. There are some fine points that should be noted - although, I don't want to argue about them.

IMO, the G.O. was always - ultimately - dominant. Sea Org was mainly internal. G.O. was external, and included internal.

"Intelligence" is senior to internal management, no matter what name it's given.

Both the Sea Org and the G.O. were Hubbard's creations, based on his writings and directives, and - behind the scenes - directed by him.

Hubbard may or may not have been "near death" in 1981, but he didn't die, and was around to direct the actions of Miscavige in 1982 and 1983.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
It's necessary to consider all the available evidence. There are some fine points that should be noted - although, I don't want to argue about them.

IMO, the G.O. was always - ultimately - dominant. Sea Org was mainly internal. G.O. was external, and included internal.

"Intelligence" is senior to internal management, no matter what name it's given.

Both the Sea Org and the G.O. were Hubbard's creations, based on his writings and directives, and - behind the scenes - directed by him.

Hubbard may or may not have been "near death" in 1981, but he didn't die, and was around to direct the actions of Miscavige in 1982 and 1983.

Excellent points.
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
It's necessary to consider all the available evidence. There are some fine points that should be noted - although, I don't want to argue about them.

IMO, the G.O. was always - ultimately - dominant. Sea Org was mainly internal. G.O. was external, and included internal.

"Intelligence" is senior to internal management, no matter what name it's given.

Both the Sea Org and the G.O. were Hubbard's creations, based on his writings and directives, and - behind the scenes - directed by him.

Hubbard may or may not have been "near death" in 1981, but he didn't die, and was around to direct the actions of Miscavige in 1982 and 1983.

Good post Veda, very valid points.

"Intelligence" = Perception, this is what Scio based its actions on.

Mary-Sue was in charge of this.

MSH could manipulate LRH easily.

Hubbard was a blow-hard - he was desperate for acknowledgement and recognition - a twit for manipulation.

The reason I do not write a book about Scio is; I know I have only bits of the story - MSH in conversation with me back in Nov 1962, said; "it is easy to control the masses - just divide and conquer!"

People give far too much cause to Hubbard - he was easily controlled - easily swayed - just mention that he was being bettered by someone and he would seek to destroy that someone.

Further he was forever on the run - now who kept him in such a state of threat?

Consequently he constantly often lost control of the day to day operations - what is even worse he had to rely on others to feed him data - too make matters worse he saw bogeymen everywhere.

The inner political scene was more terrible. Machiavelli would have drooled with jealousy at how treasonous it all was - the inner workings of Scio almost at all times was a seething mass of power grabs and stabs in the backs.

I ran pretty tight control of the Mission Network for years - not by force, but by working in alignment with each Mission Holder.

I had tremendous power as I was a SO Officer at the same time the largest Mission Holder - and out ranked all Orgs and GO.

The Mission Network exploded in power during those years.

Any major situation - I hopped on a plane and went to Flag......

I could informally talk to LRH or MSH - it usually led to the area or situation getting handled.

It also made me a lot of enemies.

Envy, greed, and jealousy have rarely ever been addressed by Scio.

It is very missing area of Technology.

To say the least the ruds were out! :)

Alan
 
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Terril park

Sponsor
Good post Veda, very valid points.

"Intelligence" = Perception, this is what Scio based its actions on.

Mary-Sue was in charge of this.

MSH could manipulate LRH easily.

Hubbard was a blow-hard - he was desperate for acknowledgement and recognition - a twit for manipulation.

The reason I do not write a book about Scio is; I know I have only bits of the story - MSH in conversation with me back in Nov 1962, said; "it is easy to control the masses - just divide and conquer!"

People give far too much cause to Hubbard - he was easily controlled - easily swayed - just mention that he was being bettered by someone and he would seek to destroy that someone.

Further he was forever on the run - now who kept him in such a state of threat?

Consequently he constantly often lost control of the day to day operations - what is even worse he had to rely on others to feed him data - too make matters worse he saw bogeymen everywhere.

The inner political scene was more terrible. Machiavelli would have drooled with jealousy at how treasonous it all was - the inner workings of Scio almost at all times was a seething mass of power grabs and stabs in the backs.

I ran pretty tight control of the Mission Network for years - not by force, but by working in alignment with each Mission Holder.

I had tremendous power as I was a SO Officer at the same time the largest Mission Holder - and out ranked all Orgs and GO.

The Mission Network exploded in power during those years.

Any major situation - I hopped on a plane and went to Flag......

I could informally talk to LRH or MSH - it usually led to the area or situation getting handled.

It also made me a lot of enemies.

Envy, greed, and jealousy have rarely ever been addressed by Scio.

It is very missing area of Technology.

To say the least the ruds were out! :)

Alan

Would be very interested in what bits of the story you do know.

On what Org board and post were you in control of Missions?
You seem to imply you outranked Mary Sue and it seems from what you say ED Int.

Was anyone else an SO officer and also a mission holder?

Was Hubbard always desparate for recognition? He got it in spades. You
refer to a certain time period?

I'm in comm with someone who was on the original class VIII course on the Apollo. You must know them. Has a different viewpoint on the man in some ways. Talks of " Spirit of Play" from "Ron " in this time period.
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Would be very interested in what bits of the story you do know.

On what Org board and post were you in control of Missions?

You seem to imply you outranked Mary Sue and it seems from what you say ED Int.

MSH was Comptroller.

There was no ED Int at that time - unless you call LRH ED Int.

I was on Mission.

Orgs not Sea Orgs.

Was anyone else an SO officer and also a mission holder?

No.

Was Hubbard always desparate for recognition? He got it in spades. You
refer to a certain time period?

BB you have an unreal vision of LRH - had he just told the story as it truly happened it would have been one of the great stories of all times.

I'm in comm with someone who was on the original class VIII course on the Apollo. You must know them. Has a different viewpoint on the man in some ways. Talks of " Spirit of Play" from "Ron " in this time period.

Throwing people overboard, putting kids in chain lockers, having someone push a peanut along a deck with his nose - thats "spirit of play?"

Yes he was also charming, he could be warm, if you were ever empowered by him - you could feel it!

This is a flawed being - see him for what he is - the great, the good, the bad and the ugly.

See the Ethics, Tech and Admin for what it is - the great, the good, the bad and the ugly.

I audited his household staff, his closest friends, women he had seduced, husbands he had cuckolded.

The Codes of silence is breaking - let it all come out.

Alan
 
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Terril park

Sponsor
MSH was Comptroller.

There was no ED Int at that time - unless you call LRH ED Int.

I was on Mission.

Orgs not Sea Orgs.


Alan

Got it

BB you have an unreal vision of LRH - had he just told the story as it truly happened it would have been one of the great stories of all times.

BB
My " vision" of LRH does not have your experience and input. Thus I ask.

With all the data available it is a remarkable story. There are few who have the knowledge of it that you have. So I ask more.

ALAN
Throwing people overboard, putting kids in chain lockers, having someone push a peanut along a deck with his nose - thats "spirit of play?"

BB
It could be. But not for children. Or when taken to excess.

" All games are abberative." But I wasn't there.

Do you wish you did not have the experience of being there?

ALAN
Yes he was also charming, he could be warm, if you were ever empowered by him - you could feel it!

This is a flawed being - see him for what he is - the great, the good, the bad and the ugly.

See the Ethics, Tech and Admin for what it is - the great, the good, the bad and the ugly.

BB
Its how I see it.

ALAN
I audited his household staff, his closest friends, women he had seduced, husbands he had cuckolded.

The Codes of silence is breaking - let it all come out.

BB
I guess tough for you. As you know I prostyletise the tech. This is the man's legacy. I am curious about the man. This is perhaps the time and place to comment.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
What I really appreciate is that people- like Alan- are coming forward and speaking out about everything the church does not want people to know.

There's a reason they don't want us to know what happened -and it sure as hell isn't "fear of restimulation"!

No, it's that they've done some really bad bad stuff, still are doing it, LRH did it, and they just don't want members to find out and they don't want others who could affect things to find out.

So good job, Alan- and all the others posting their experiences.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
I have audited a pc who was thrown in the chain locker many times as a child. And on some form of child's RPF on the Ship. Her story is so sad. Way sadder than mine. And she has stayed loyal to the church through a LOT of crap. To my knowledge, she still is loyal to the church, and to LRH. She is the same person I mentioned in another thread who's brother was dying of cancer and did not want to see her. He also did not want her at his funeral. That's how unimportant family is in the Sea Org.
 

Little Bear Victor

Silver Meritorious Patron
As to getting people out, I have the view that the "cognition cannot be fed," on ehas to experience personally how messed up it can get before he breaks the closed circle of LRH tech which provides a believable (if you believe LRH) explanation for every outpoint and lack of results.

I still do think even the most dedicated of Scientologists can be made to realize that their own life is a reflection of how life will be for everyone on the planet if this was to become a Scientology planet. The moment you make that extrapolation, the utopia starts to crumble.

Another thing that seems to keep many people on staff is the hope that even though they themselves are not gaining, they are helping others make it. In many cases this is more important than one's own spiritual progress.

So, these are some of the views that could be introduced gently to current Scientologists and staff to help them out.

Victor
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
the church>Getting people to leave

ALAN
Throwing people overboard, putting kids in chain lockers, having someone push a peanut along a deck with his nose - thats "spirit of play?"

BB
It could be. But not for children. Or when taken to excess.


"Spirit of play"-It could be? With all due respect Terril,i don't think throwing people overboard whether adults or children can be seen as "spirit of play".
I do not rememember anyone going overboard that enjoyed the experience.
I think it was a barbaric practice and i will stick by that,and if it still goes on today,then it is still a barbaric practice in my view.

ALAN
Yes he was also charming, he could be warm, if you were ever empowered by him - you could feel it!

When i knew LRH he could indeed be charming,i remember the students and auditors looking up to him in awe at times when he was talking about the tech.
I looked up to him when i was first on the ship,but for me the daily rituals of overboarding-orders that came from LRH,changed my opinion.
IMO no amount of 'Charming' can make up for the abuses that went on aboard Apollo back then or since.
Abuse is Abuse.The only good that come from it is to' Stop the Abuse'
If the CofS were to stop the abuse,then i for one would have no problem with
the 'Tech',even though the tech is not for me.
I'm not having a go at you Terril,just saying it as it is
Tamasin:)
 
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