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Good Side effects of A Sea Org Upbringing---FIRE AT WILL!

Mike Laws

Patron Meritorious
This is an interesting thread (kudos to the OP). I think Mike Laws' post was an insightful one.

But what I wondered was - what is the definition of 'success'? Or 'done well'?

Traditional "success" by "modern" western standards, something somewhat driven by a consumer driven economy is good job, good pay, lots of nice things, nice house, travel, good credit to be able to borrow lots of money, business owner, etc. I disagree with this materialistic definition of success as overly simplistic and unattainable, mathematically, by 50% or more of the population. I think it is also a trap, borrowing yourself to a material success with assets that loose their value as quickly as they are paid off (new cars, new houses, etc.)

Success or "doing well" I believe is a much more intimate and personal state, depending on what is important to the person. Things I believe people would generally agree fall into success are:

A strong family unit, children, siblings, or friends or social groups. Real relationships with people that are satisfying and enjoyable and rewarding.

Personal financial stability, not living pay check to pay check, not being afraid or stressed by how the next rent check or mortgage payment will be made, or by job insecurity, etc.

Good financial management skills, resulting in a more stable financial future being built. This is not all about what we make. Yesterday I was called by a woman asking advice ... she had been making $2-400,000 a year after leaving the SO, built herself an exorbitant lifestyle, income dropped, and she had to declare bankruptcy. She realized she didn't know how to manage money and was miserable. It is incredibly difficult to get ahead on minimum wage, but can be done, though it is not much fun. Part of this I think is finding a way to find pleasure in your life without having to buy or have nice stuff all the time.

Doing work, either as a profession, or hobby that you find fulfilling and important and meaningful.

Living in a place that you enjoy, finding pleasure in your local environment.

Having some excess money and or time to do things that are significant and valuable to you, whether charity or education, or travel or whatever.


The biggest thing people I have spoken with seem to long from the SO is the comradeship and sense of meaning for what they are doing. IMHO the comradeship and friendships were conditional or fake depending on our status with the group, it was a lie that is impossible to completely re-create in the real world.

Mick discloses many details about his life in this thread that I didn't know. I do know about his challenges with his son, what he has built around that, the rewarding work, even if not monetarily, the intellectual stimulation, the feeling of service to the world, the community, personal financial stability, ... especially knowing where he came from, in my book that is success and doing well.

Media seems to want us to compare ourselves, measure ourselves against others. We are all different, and come from different places, so expecting an extreme elite guide stick of excessive financial and material consumption as success is a sure route to misery and failure for most.

I know of a man illegal in the US with children born here. I respect him tremendously, works harder than most, never taken anything from the government, doesn't want and won't take a hand out, his definition of success is to be here legally, not to worry about being deported or what would happen to his family, be able to visit his family in Mexico ... he calls this freedom. If Obama does reform immigration, I would move this guy to Texas in a heartbeat and hire him and be honored if he would work with me.

Success to me is a personal feeling of worth and value and importance, personal stability, and the ability to do something for others. A life one enjoys.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
There is nothing here that you can't learn through a good, loving upbringing from responsible parents. You don't need to go through the torture and pain of being in the Sea Org.

What you are trying to do is cope with what you have been through by finding a silver lining. I commend you for that. There is nothing wrong with it.

The fact remains that people do NOT need to be put through the Sea Org in order to learn the skills listed here.

All you are doing is writing a really incredible wordy post that does nothing but repeat the old adage that has been spoken time and time again: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

Everything you said in this post could have gone without saying.

I think that a better statement than, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger", and more accurate is "Adversity brings out the worst in all of us and the best in some of us."

Talking about the good things you brought out of a horrible experience is a coping mechanism that really is for you and you alone. Right now you are advertising adversity to people even making seem like it is something that you recommend. That is a horrible mistake.

I am sure the guy in 127 hours is very strong willed and more capable and competent than a lot of people. Do you think he would recommend that someone go out and get stuck in the desert and then cut their arm off? I doubt it.

(FYI: "Gone without saying" does not mean you shouldn't have said it. It means that people already infer what you said without you having to say it out loud. Wasted words are the worst kind of words.)

I know I will have my head handed to me for this so before I start I want to say I am not a Hubbard Sympathizer and I know there are many more bad things in Scientology than good things. The disconnection, child labor splitting up of families etc. But here is an interesting observation:

I am thinking of Jenna Hill but it also applies to many ex Sea or members. I find ex sea org members to be very competent. They leave the cult and in a few years they have good jobs a house and a family. That is not easy to do.

I think that when you compare years of the Sea Org to civilian life the Sea Org is much harder. In the Sea Org you learn incredible discipline, you don’t complain, you work until you get a product and you feel that you are working in service of others. They learn how to persevere. In my opinion perseverance is probably the most important quality driving success.

Call them TR’s or something else, the idea that you can repeat a command until you get compliance works well in the real world and the idea that you can get yelled at all day long and still hold it together also works well in the real world.

While there is no education in the Sea org I personally think there is a lot to the idea of looking up words in a dictionary, knowing correct grammar, making demonstrations and learning on a gradient. I don’t care if Hubbard stole it or made it up himself. These ideas are good.

I know that she probably didn’t have no “fancy book learning” but a person like her could probably teach herself math or physics or computers, because she probably has incredible confidence in herself.

When I see Jenna Hill talk she is very well spoken and focused. Also just a few years out of the Org she really has things together. She even wrote a book. How is that for getting a product?

I know it is terrible to separate a child from her family and work them for 7 days a week. In her interviews she basically said that the children actually built The Ranch.

Compare this to my very protected childhood. Everything was done for me, no child labor, lots of fun. But really I can’t much hang a picture much less build house. I bet Jenna could build a house if she needed to. Yes I got a higher education but it took me many years to build a real work ethic.

If I were to hire someone I would definitely consider an ex Sea Org member much the same as I would consider a person who grew up in a Russia or a third world country and had to fight to survive. If you live that kind of adversity and live it makes you stronger.

A Sea Org upbringing reminds me of the raising of a Russian gymnast. They are taken away from the family by the state; they don’t see their parents for years at a time, lots of yelling and no complaining. I am sure that even if these people ever got a job later they would be hard workers. And in reality if that Russian gymnast doesn’t make it as a gymnast she really has nothing to fall back on except her strong will and work ethic.

The Sea Org is paramilitary and one thing people get in the military is discipline, which is a good quality.

Once again I am not trolling (whatever that means). I am not apologizing or advocating that the sea org is good. It is bad because people are tricked into, manipulated, and brain washed, it or are in it against their will and threatened if they leave. I get that. I just think that one side effect is that these people who get out are often competent, non complainers, well spoken, perseverant, survivors.

FIRE AT WILL!
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I once read a quote from, I think - Keith Waterhouse or Willis Hall when someone fatuously asserted that a poor impoverished childhood made people grow up to be more driven and he responded that "poverty has blighted so much more talent than it has ever aided" or words to that effect.

The SO hurt many more people than it helped. Period.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
I like this thread. This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart.

I don't know if there is a clear cut answer to this. Some people get out and do very well in the world. Some people seem to do really badly. A lot seem to be somewhere in between.

A few observations:

1) A "scientology" job generally won't prepare you for much. From what I've observed, the people who seem to do better when they get out had a job in the SO that was fairly easy to translate into the outside world. Graphic arts and renos are two typical Sea Org job areas where people who get out seem to be able to transition pretty smoothly. Some do better than others, but having "real life" skills does seem to give you an edge. Auditing? C/Sing? Word clearing? Not so much.

2) People who have read my posts have probably heard this from me before. Whatever you do, when you get out, DO NOT work for a Scientologist, an ex-Scientologist, an Indie Scientologist. Any kind of Scientologist. You need to get reassimilated into the real world, the sooner the better. I know from personal experience that it's tough. You feel like an alien. No one around you has any understanding of your past. But, from my observation, those who have been successful just cut themselves off from the whole Scn scene and jumped back on the horsey.

3) I agree with whoever said to not think of yourself as a victim. It's true. That mentality will get you nowhere. You may be a victim, you may not be; either way, it's irrelevant. Dwelling on that kind of shit will not help you in any way, shape or form succeed in the world. You need to get over it and get busy.

I was in the SO for 14 years. I came out with nothing, pretty much, but the clothes on my back. I had to start from scratch and build a life. The above comes from personal, hard won experience.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I know I will have my head handed to me for this so before I start I want to say I am not a Hubbard Sympathizer and I know there are many more bad things in Scientology than good things. The disconnection, child labor splitting up of families etc. But here is an interesting observation:

I am thinking of Jenna Hill but it also applies to many ex Sea or members. I find ex sea org members to be very competent. They leave the cult and in a few years they have good jobs a house and a family. That is not easy to do.

Some SO members do well upon leaving the SO. Others do poorly. You may just be more likely to hear about the ones who do well. The people here on ESMB, for example, are well enough to be able to afford a computer and internet connection. If they weren't, then you would not hear from them.

There's one buddy of mine from the SO whose situation I managed to hear about, who was living in a homeless shelter. I helped get him back on his feet, but he still is not in a high-paying job. Another ex-SO buddy, who I've also given a hand to from time to time, is currently living in the back of his van. An ex-SO lady friend who grew up in the SO had a hard time after being offloaded due to chronic health issues, but she was fortunate to be very cute and so managed to find a guy to move in with.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I would also add, that a Sea Org organization is supposed to produce FAR more revenue to send up the lines, than is consumed by living expenses of the SO members

A Sea Org member who is not perceived as being able enough to produce far more value than the cost of feeding and housing him, is quickly offloaded.
 

Gib

Crusader
Some SO members do well upon leaving the SO. Others do poorly. You may just be more likely to hear about the ones who do well. The people here on ESMB, for example, are well enough to be able to afford a computer and internet connection. If they weren't, then you would not hear from them.

There's one buddy of mine from the SO whose situation I managed to hear about, who was living in a homeless shelter. I helped get him back on his feet, but he still is not in a high-paying job. Another ex-SO buddy, who I've also given a hand to from time to time, is currently living in the back of his van. An ex-SO lady friend who grew up in the SO had a hard time after being offloaded due to chronic health issues, but she was fortunate to be very cute and so managed to find a guy to move in with.

In response to the OP: Give me a break. Say what?

I don't care what anybody prior to my post here says, while I do care, but I don't care. The bottom line is there are no "clears" or "OT's" thus no bridge to freedom. The bottom line is it's BS. Yah, there is some good and yes I have made some insights and learned some things, but by golly. The bridge is a broken promise kept alive by PR big time.

I don't care how anybody justifies their view on why the tech is good. There are no clears or ot's. It's a rip-off even per hub's policy on exchange.

Show me a god dam clear?

How can people justify. Shoot, Hilter got a whole country following him, how could this be? I mean a WHOLE Country. And other leaders as well. I mean hilter got his country working day and night to produce weapons to take over the world. That is quite unbelievable, but yet it happened. So Hub went about it thru the mind and involved many countries, that's unbelievable.
 
Everybody's experience of life and hard times is different. People have different levels of coping skills, different learning curves, and different levels of resistance to "giving up" in hard circumstances. It takes a great deal of courage to walk away from a group you have dedicated your life to and worked hard to support, even when you realize that it is in your best interests to do so. I want to say that I greatly admire anyone who has the insight to get themselves free of that mental/emotional trap that is the Cult of COS, especially those who have been raised in Scientology or have been in the SO. :clap:

None of the Ex SO that I have personally worked with and/or helped felt that overall, they were "better off" in some way for having been in the SO. All shared with me that they had regrets about lost years and the roads not taken in their lives, and felt that the totality of their experiences there left them with something more to be overcome than something to look back on and cherish or value, the way you would look back on any good life or learning experience, which may have been difficult at times. All were in some way coping with regrets about lost time, effort and opportunities which could have led to much more productive and happier paths in life for them. Several of them blamed themselves for having failed, rather than feeling that the group failed them (as I do feel!!!). Most were additionally struggling with years of neglect of medical/dental care, and severe lack of financial resources, and the difficulty of finding gainful employment without a useful job history or much education. Several were homeless, even years after leaving the SO.

I'm sure the folks I have personally known and helped don't speak for everyone. But that is what my personal contact with them has shown me to be true about their feelings in general about the years they spent "in". They range in age from elderly through middle aged and young adult.

I do admire anyone who survives an ordeal and goes on to recreate themselves and build a better life. :thumbsup: That many Exes (SO and otherwise) go on to flourish, prosper and live a satisfying, comfortable and meaningful life is something to be celebrated! :happydance:

By all means, let us celebrate and applaud all of their individual high points and successes in life, whatever they may be! :thumbsup:

But we...the collective we, should have a care for those who are still struggling, or who struggle at first, upon exiting the SO.

As long as there IS a SO, they will be with us, needing some help to exit the Cult and make a safe and healthy transition back into the real world, and get on with their lives. :yes:

64501_464650303590803_1924299954_n.jpg
 

Mike Laws

Patron Meritorious
I once read a quote from, I think - Keith Waterhouse or Willis Hall when someone fatuously asserted that a poor impoverished childhood made people grow up to be more driven and he responded that "poverty has blighted so much more talent than it has ever aided" or words to that effect.

The SO hurt many more people than it helped. Period.

I used to agree with the concept that a poor childhood created more driven, stronger or resilient people, but experience has shown it not to be so, some people do in fact seem to be turned into diamonds from crushing pressure, but others just seem crushed and broken and fractured. The diamonds seem the rare few. I believe, my theory is that early enough intervention into the "pressure cooker" with positive reinforcement and love and guidance and mentoring might dramatically increase the number of diamonds.

Conversely wealth, successful parents, etc. are no automatic formula or environment for instant success. Look at how many successful people have trouble with their children, celebrities that are train wrecks, etc.

I agree the SO has hurt more that it helped as a statistical rule. I agree with Isene that EX SO and Scn can make horrible employees as they are fragmented and broken with huge superiority complexes and undeserved egos.

I am the perfect example, first 10 years out of the Sea Org I was essentially unemployable in any meaningful way, while I may have done some good work, I wasn't consistent and reliable, and thought I knew too much to be easily trained. My history was full of failures where I tried to take on the role of expert, when I had no real world expertise. What is worse is that many people rapidly granted me expert status because of my SO background, accelerating my route to consistent failure.

I went into business for myself because I couldn't get and hold a meaningful and positive job.

Ferrel told me a few years ago that every one of the grand OEC/FEBCs in Australia became janitors or started small janitorial companies. There is nothing wrong with Cleaning Companies, it is an essential service and can be a great living, in fact I have considered that as a probable route if I had to start over again. But if the OEC/FEBC was the magic to turn around any company, any country and save the world, why aren't even 1 in 10 millionaires or billionaires?
 

Gib

Crusader
Ferrel told me a few years ago that every one of the grand OEC/FEBCs in Australia became janitors or started small janitorial companies. There is nothing wrong with Cleaning Companies, it is an essential service and can be a great living, in fact I have considered that as a probable route if I had to start over again. But if the OEC/FEBC was the magic to turn around any company, any country and save the world, why aren't even 1 in 10 millionaires or billionaires?

Do you have more interesting tidbits? I like that one as well as what you wrote.
 

Gib

Crusader
I would also add, that a Sea Org organization is supposed to produce FAR more revenue to send up the lines, than is consumed by living expenses of the SO members
A Sea Org member who is not perceived as being able enough to produce far more value than the cost of feeding and housing him, is quickly offloaded.

I was at a gawd damn IAS regging event just about a year and a half ago where the speaker, reg, was the don rickles look a like, I got up in the middle of event and walked out, he looked at me as I got up and I could see fear in his eyes, and when I walked out the door some young punk SO guy asked where am I going, I says home, he says why, i says I gotta get some sleep, he says but but as I leave, whats your name, blah blah as I walk out the door.

The don rickles guy started his talk with how we might have to urge to leave, and blah blah blah, joking the whole way to get the audience to laugh and make us feel like we are having a good time, entertained. son of a bitch asshole.

I was on course all day and tired and didn't need to be regged for the same shit, with having to be back the next day early to be on course.

And then lo and behold I get the debbie cook email on excessive regging 6 months later. :thumbsup:
 

Alle G

Patron with Honors
TG1 said;

I must say Reasonable: you have done well to equate Russia with Scientology! Very well done.

WTF?

To compare a huge country with hundreds of millions of people, with hundreds different languages and cultures, with 1000 year old history, to a small recent cult, you must be really brainwashed by Western media. As if all Russians fit one pattern (including gymnasts).

One more time, WTF?
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
If I were to hire someone I would definitely consider an ex Sea Org member much the same as I would consider a person who grew up in a Russia or a third world country and had to fight to survive. If you live that kind of adversity and live it makes you stronger.

A Sea Org upbringing reminds me of the raising of a Russian gymnast. They are taken away from the family by the state; they don’t see their parents for years at a time, lots of yelling and no complaining. I am sure that even if these people ever got a job later they would be hard workers. And in reality if that Russian gymnast doesn’t make it as a gymnast she really has nothing to fall back on except her strong will and work ethic.

"I would definitely consider an ex Sea Org member much the same as I would consider a person who grew up in a Russia"

I must say Reasonable: you have done well to equate Russia with Scientology! Very well done.

I do see how some of the things you have mentioned can be very admirable qualities and can help one in life. I also have seen within my life starting somewhere back around 1960, cold-war well in progress, and then that silly missile crisis thing, had caused me and my loved ones (actually the entire western hemisphere) to really become concerned about anything having to do with Russia. I guess though that this is because I was born in the western hemisphere and that there have been very serious 'human' problems that have occurred between the east and the west - probably mainly due to the all that 'communist verses the capitalist' thing.

I've learned since that both do not really work - and Russia has shown that their version didn't work well before the other as it is apparently gone (that government system). I've also since learned that everyone on this planet gets to deal with the same human silliness, regardless of language, color, race, religion or whatever and however anyone choose to divide it all. I was just very happy when the best of folks from both sides - scientists, artists and such, did eventually get together and work towards a common good for everyone - and that had nothing to do with 'Us and Them'.

I do hope that that is what you are talking about too?

So, thank you again for equating Sea Org to Russia. I think you have nailed it on the head.

Best to you.

TL

TG1 said;

I must say Reasonable: you have done well to equate Russia with Scientology! Very well done.

WTF?

To compare a huge country with hundreds of millions of people, with hundreds different languages and cultures, with 1000 year old history, to a small recent cult, you must be really brainwashed by Western media. As if all Russians fit one pattern (including gymnasts).

One more time, WTF?

Firstly, TG1 did NOT say any such thing. It was Techless who made that remark, as I have quoted above, which you have taken woefully out of context. Try reading the comment before you post about it. If you want to be annoyed at anyone for insulting comparisons and stereotypes, be annoyed at Reasonable. I do personally think, however, that a comparison of Scientology organisational structure with totalitarianism is not at all misplaced.
 

Alle G

Patron with Honors
Hi TG1

Sorry
:blush: :flowers:

Thanks, Purple Rain

:flowers2:

Because of Cessation of Hostilities I replace the word 'brainwashed' with 'informed by Western media'.

Alle G
 

Techless

Patron Meritorious
:
:
What doesn't kill you can make you stronger, but doesn't necessarily make you stronger.

What doesn't kill you doesn't always make you stronger.
What doesn't kill you can make you stronger, but if there might be ways to become stronger without suffering.
What doesn't kill you can make you stronger, but the economics of, amount of suffering vs amount of strength gained might be ridiculous.
"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger", could in some cases be a way of rationalizing uncomfortable self assessments, such as how much time one has wasted and how much suffering one has endured through lack of other qualities, such as self worth, assertiveness, etc.

I completely agree that "what doesn't kill you can make you stronger."


Very nice to see some current additions to a rather old Nietzsche stereotype and all too easy to proclaim these days. It does need some 'kick' from current perspective
But then: so many great things are now retired and old - still true nonetheless, but not about too much anymore...a problem I see. Needs to be jackturned around
HHmm
 

Alle G

Patron with Honors
I've actually been to Russia. I make my own observations.


Then maybe you agree that variety of world views, philosophies, religions, languages and cultural traditions is not less rich than in any other country and can’t be compared to SO, where everyone theoretically adopts one man’s world view.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Then maybe you agree that variety of world views, philosophies, religions, languages and cultural traditions is not less rich than in any other country and can’t be compared to SO, where everyone theoretically adopts one man’s world view.

Well, I loved Russia. I didn't want to go home. It was an amazing experience. I also saw a lot of things that shocked me, though. But then I've also seen a lot of things that shocked me in America, and in my own country for that matter.

As I said before, though, I do think you can validly compare Scientology or the Sea Org to any totalitarian regime, whatever its ideology.

I can see how it would suck to have your country compared to the Sea Org, though. The Sea Org is a bit of an insult, although people slag off at my country all the time. It happens to every country I think. You should read what they say about Australia in Encyclopaedia Dramatica.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
This is certainly an interesting thread.
Here's my tuppence worth...



Some exSO members may 'flourish and prosper' when the concrete is removed from their feet, many just find the extra weight has given them muscle and joint pains.

Persistence can be a good lesson, but not how to persist being abused, that is a poor lesson.

Real life teaches too, and usually less painfully. If you don't remove the roots of weeds from the soil you get weeds next year, if you don't feed your piglet there won't be much bacon next winter, forget to water the ground and there's no vegetables, small farmers think in longer periods of time than Thursday to Thursday, if they were SO farmers there would be plenty of weeds, and no sausages.
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
TG1 said;

I must say Reasonable: you have done well to equate Russia with Scientology! Very well done.

WTF?

To compare a huge country with hundreds of millions of people, with hundreds different languages and cultures, with 1000 year old history, to a small recent cult, you must be really brainwashed by Western media. As if all Russians fit one pattern (including gymnasts).

One more time, WTF?

You need to think more conceptually than literally.
 
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