Gurdjieff: 1866 -1949
- Thread starter Veda
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Udarnik
Gold Meritorious Patron
There were a shitload of Russian mystics operating at the end of the Russian Ancient Regime. Not least of which was Rasputin. Gurdjieff always reminded me something of the Mad Monk, especially in his fondness for the ladies.
But the man Gurdjieff reminds me of most is Roman von Ungern-Sternberg. If Gurdieff had been born into a noble military family, he would have given Roman a run for his money.
But the man Gurdjieff reminds me of most is Roman von Ungern-Sternberg. If Gurdieff had been born into a noble military family, he would have given Roman a run for his money.
Probably the most significant contribution that Gurdjieff made to Scientology was the pioneering of the RPF. I knew one guy who was in it at one time - in fact he was in Scio too after that, worked in Pubs Org in Denmark for years.
In the Gurdjieff establishment in the UK they had to do long hours of hard physical labour. In this way they would key-in all sorts of protest masses and then they'd be kept at it for months on end until the protest keyed out again and they learned to enjoy all the hard grind. Sound familiar? Sound like good spiritual therapy?
Into this mix - I'm talking 1950's now - came one chap known as Bapak. He was believed by these nutters to be the long awaited prophet/saviour who would lead them all to glory-land. He was from Indonesia and had had various spiritual insights there. So they brought him to the UK along with a few of his henchmen and they had their inaugural meeting with him at the helm. The chap I knew was there - well OK, his name was Richard Lacey, he told me all of this. Now deceased RIP - and he told me how Bapak came into the hall. there were no chair or anything, just a totally bare room and men only. He announced words to the effect of "the procedure will now begin" and he closed his eyes. After a half-minute or so the guys in the room started reacting and rolling on the floor and having all sorts of weird experiences. After 20 minutes or so it subsided and things returned to normal. The guys there were all mightily impressed - something had happened and they had no F'ing clue what. These sessions were held daily after that, all with much the same effect.
Anyway this went on a while and after a while the Gurdjieffian conclave decided that maybe this dude was not the saviour/prophet after all and so they persuaded him to take himself elsewhere. Bapak went on to found the Subud movement which today almost completely functions as an Islamic sect, or offshoot. That session thing they have is called "latihan".
Whether the Gurdjieff RPF still functions or not I don't know. I did once also come across a reference to that crowd in a book I read; not sure now which one.
So anyway - if any of you guys think back longingly to your time on the CofS's RPF and yearn for those glorious carefree days then Gurdjieff is certainly the man for you.
Have fun.
In the Gurdjieff establishment in the UK they had to do long hours of hard physical labour. In this way they would key-in all sorts of protest masses and then they'd be kept at it for months on end until the protest keyed out again and they learned to enjoy all the hard grind. Sound familiar? Sound like good spiritual therapy?
Into this mix - I'm talking 1950's now - came one chap known as Bapak. He was believed by these nutters to be the long awaited prophet/saviour who would lead them all to glory-land. He was from Indonesia and had had various spiritual insights there. So they brought him to the UK along with a few of his henchmen and they had their inaugural meeting with him at the helm. The chap I knew was there - well OK, his name was Richard Lacey, he told me all of this. Now deceased RIP - and he told me how Bapak came into the hall. there were no chair or anything, just a totally bare room and men only. He announced words to the effect of "the procedure will now begin" and he closed his eyes. After a half-minute or so the guys in the room started reacting and rolling on the floor and having all sorts of weird experiences. After 20 minutes or so it subsided and things returned to normal. The guys there were all mightily impressed - something had happened and they had no F'ing clue what. These sessions were held daily after that, all with much the same effect.
Anyway this went on a while and after a while the Gurdjieffian conclave decided that maybe this dude was not the saviour/prophet after all and so they persuaded him to take himself elsewhere. Bapak went on to found the Subud movement which today almost completely functions as an Islamic sect, or offshoot. That session thing they have is called "latihan".
Whether the Gurdjieff RPF still functions or not I don't know. I did once also come across a reference to that crowd in a book I read; not sure now which one.
So anyway - if any of you guys think back longingly to your time on the CofS's RPF and yearn for those glorious carefree days then Gurdjieff is certainly the man for you.
Have fun.
Veda
Sponsor
Relax, this was not a commercial for Gurdjieff, the Fourth Way, or any of the Gurdjieff spin offs.
Are they still around? It seems so. There are still people who read Gurdjieff's writings, and some groups. I did see their Guardian Office file back in the mid 1970s. Listed as a "squirrel group," they were included along with dozens of other "squirrel" groups, and hundreds of "squirrel" individuals. Each was regarded as an "enemy" to be watched and, if necessary, handled.
I've also seen the mid 1950s letter from Hubbard to the FBI where he complains that his offer to instruct the USA Defense Department on methods of psychological warfare has gone unanswered. This attempted instruction, it seems, consisted of Hubbard having sent the Defense Department a copy of his recently concocted hoax 'Russian Textbook on Psycho-politics'. This is the same text that Hubbard secretly used on his own followers in the coming years, incorporating its ideas and methods into Scientology doctrine and "tech." Hubbard knew what he was doing.
Your attempts to defend Hubbard and Scientology surprise me.
I thought you were beyond that.Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
Robert de Ropp (author of "The Master Game") knew Gurdjieff well and writes about him and Ouspensky in his autobiographical book "The Warrior's Way."
The sections about Gurdjieff are well worth reading. He had some quite extraordinary abilities, which he needed to survive the Russian revolution and aid his escape from the carnage that was taking place during and after it. For example, he was able to procure two covered railway wagons from the Bolshevik government and - incredibly IMO - a permit to carry a revolver signed by both an official of that government and one from their White Russian opposition.
He may not have been into psychological control for its own sake, but he certainly put his students through the wringer, as Leon mentions. He was also extremely dismissive of the great bulk of humanity, saying they were only fit to become "fertiliser for the planet."
If memory serves, de Ropp claimed that by the end of his life Gurdjieff (and Ouspensky even more so) had become quite a sad figure. De Ropp's conclusion was that for all the intense efforts they required of their students, Gurdjieff's methods were unbalanced and lacked love and compassion, possibly because they hadn't worked on developing it themselves.
IMO, there are definitely parallels between him and LRH and Scientology in that respect.
The sections about Gurdjieff are well worth reading. He had some quite extraordinary abilities, which he needed to survive the Russian revolution and aid his escape from the carnage that was taking place during and after it. For example, he was able to procure two covered railway wagons from the Bolshevik government and - incredibly IMO - a permit to carry a revolver signed by both an official of that government and one from their White Russian opposition.
He may not have been into psychological control for its own sake, but he certainly put his students through the wringer, as Leon mentions. He was also extremely dismissive of the great bulk of humanity, saying they were only fit to become "fertiliser for the planet."
If memory serves, de Ropp claimed that by the end of his life Gurdjieff (and Ouspensky even more so) had become quite a sad figure. De Ropp's conclusion was that for all the intense efforts they required of their students, Gurdjieff's methods were unbalanced and lacked love and compassion, possibly because they hadn't worked on developing it themselves.
IMO, there are definitely parallels between him and LRH and Scientology in that respect.
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SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Yes, there are several "schools" or branches that still study the "Fourth Way". I actually belonged to a Fourth Way study group for several years, one that was affiliated with E J Gold's works and group. Read any of his books, for anyone who is curious. It is pretty deep stuff.Here is WAY more than you ever wanted to know about it
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way_(book)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way_enneagram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._J._Gold
It was a fun and interesting group of people engaging in the work. I made some friends and had some interesting experiences. I do think that overall, it did help me to be more awake and aware. One thing I really appreciate and value about the specific local group that I was involved in studying with, they did know the meaning and worth of SERVICE!
Some of them still do readings from the American Book of The Dead (consider it a Spiritual road map for anyone lost or stuck in a Bardo) for the recently departed, and those who are at the point of death or are severely ill and in and out of their body.
Here's a little snippet called reading "the Clear Light", enjoy:
http://youtu.be/-D0WFGyiXF4
Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
Here is WAY more than you ever wanted to know about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way_(book)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way_enneagram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._J._Gold
It was a fun and interesting group of people engaging in the work. I made some friends and had some interesting experiences. I do think that overall, it did help me to be more awake and aware. One thing I really appreciate and value about the specific local group that I was involved in studying with, they did know the meaning and worth of SERVICE!
Some of them still do readings from the American Book of The Dead (consider it a Spiritual road map for anyone lost or stuck in a Bardo) for the recently departed, and those who are at the point of death or are severely ill and in and out of their body.
Here's a little snippet called reading "the Clear Light", enjoy:
http://youtu.be/-D0WFGyiXF4
Is E J Gold any good? I'm not familiar with his work but I have seen some of his books in a bookshop (now sadly closed) in a bookshop in a different part of the county I live in.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
He is a VERY CREATIVE person, writes, paints, sculpts, makes music, does computer games, etc. So his approach is more that of an artist than a psychologist or philosopher. He says what he has to say in a pretty poetic way, not so much an academic way, much of the time. Which may or may not work for you.
He's a bit of a trickster and a guy's guy. (Meh for me, but great for others!
)"The American Book of the Dead" is a bit of a classic. Reading it won't hurt you any...Or listening to it, even more evocative!
Some of his work is very dense: "The Human Biological Machine as a Transformational Apparatus" ~Ooof! I read it and I don't recommend it unless you are a devoted student...
Here's a quote about him from wikipedia: "Gold has for many years acted as an independent spiritual teacher whose work and style bear a strong affinity with the teachings of G.I. Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way school of thought. Gold's particular style, as evinced in his published writings such as The American Book of the Dead also demonstrate a strong influence of Tibetan tantric teachings such as the concept of bardo or "in-between" states. Like Gurdjieff, the fundamental emphasis of Gold's teaching is on the concept of spiritual "Work" in daily life and a constant effort to increase and maintain heightened awareness in all activities. The state of an individual "in the Work" is thus contrasted to what is taken to be the state of the "ordinary" unawakened individual, who is presumed to go through life in a condition of quasi-automatism or mere social conditioning ("asleep," in the metaphorical terminology of this tradition..."
Pretty accurate summing up, so far as it goes, in my experience!
Any of these books would be a little more accessible if you're just curious and want to dip into his work a bit. Get them from the library, or buy them cheap used. Gold's work is not to everybody's taste, but interesting:
Alchemical Sex.
Angels Healing Journey.
Autobiography of a Sufi.
Bardo Stations: A Guidebook for the Afterlife.
The Book of Sacraments.
Brother Godfrey's Journal.
The Hidden Work.
The Invocation of Presence.
The Joy of Sacrifice.
The Lazy Man's Guide to Death and Dying.
The Original Handbook for the Recently Deceased Workbook, Manual, Practicum. (with Dr. Claude Needham)
Secret Talks on Voluntary Evolution.
The Seven Bodies of Man.
Secret Talks With Mr. G.
Shakti: The Gestalt of Zap.
Songs My Dead Mother Sang Me. (with Parker Dickson, et al.)
Tanks for the Memories. (with Dr. John C. Lilly)
(That last one is about floating in a sensory deprivation tank as a means of exploring one's being and consciousness.) Great fun!!!
I have De Ropp's "The Master Game" in my library, but would like to also read his autobiography, "The Warrior's Way." Oh, Santa!
Udarnik
Gold Meritorious Patron
He is a VERY CREATIVE person, writes, paints, sculpts, makes music, does computer games, etc. So his approach is more that of an artist than a psychologist or philosopher. He says what he has to say in a pretty poetic way, not so much an academic way, much of the time. Which may or may not work for you.
He's a bit of a trickster and a guy's guy. (Meh for me, but great for others!
"The American Book of the Dead" is a bit of a classic. Reading it won't hurt you any...Or listening to it, even more evocative!
Some of his work is very dense: "The Human Biological Machine as a Transformational Apparatus" ~Ooof! I read it and I don't recommend it unless you are a devoted student...
Here's a quote about him from wikipedia: "Gold has for many years acted as an independent spiritual teacher whose work and style bear a strong affinity with the teachings of G.I. Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way school of thought. Gold's particular style, as evinced in his published writings such as The American Book of the Dead also demonstrate a strong influence of Tibetan tantric teachings such as the concept of bardo or "in-between" states. Like Gurdjieff, the fundamental emphasis of Gold's teaching is on the concept of spiritual "Work" in daily life and a constant effort to increase and maintain heightened awareness in all activities. The state of an individual "in the Work" is thus contrasted to what is taken to be the state of the "ordinary" unawakened individual, who is presumed to go through life in a condition of quasi-automatism or mere social conditioning ("asleep," in the metaphorical terminology of this tradition..."
Pretty accurate summing up, so far as it goes, in my experience!
Any of these books would be a little more accessible if you're just curious and want to dip into his work a bit. Get them from the library, or buy them cheap used. Gold's work is not to everybody's taste, but interesting:
Alchemical Sex.
Angels Healing Journey.
Autobiography of a Sufi.
Bardo Stations: A Guidebook for the Afterlife.
The Book of Sacraments.
Brother Godfrey's Journal.
The Hidden Work.
The Invocation of Presence.
The Joy of Sacrifice.
The Lazy Man's Guide to Death and Dying.
The Original Handbook for the Recently Deceased Workbook, Manual, Practicum. (with Dr. Claude Needham)
Secret Talks on Voluntary Evolution.
The Seven Bodies of Man.
Secret Talks With Mr. G.
Shakti: The Gestalt of Zap.
Songs My Dead Mother Sang Me. (with Parker Dickson, et al.)
Tanks for the Memories. (with Dr. John C. Lilly)
(That last one is about floating in a sensory deprivation tank as a means of exploring one's being and consciousness.) Great fun!!!
I have De Ropp's "The Master Game" in my library, but would like to also read his autobiography, "The Warrior's Way." Oh, Santa!
[video=youtube;H-WP2LGg9Cc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-WP2LGg9Cc[/video]
You can get a free copy of "The Human Biological Machine as a Transformational Apparatus" at scribd, here.
Is this him?
Because the guy in the video is a flat-out whack job, and so full of shit his eyes have to be brown. He reminds me a lot of the description of the great post-war novelists in David Foster Wallace's take-down of John Updyke - a Great Male Narcissist. Is that what you meant by a guy's guy?
This guy looks like a middle aged, paunchy son of privilege (his father founded Galaxy Science Fiction, and he moved in Hubbard's circles), bullshitting people for fun and profit. He actually called himself a physicist before launching into a tirade that shows he doesn't even understand the scientific method, to say nothing of the rigors of physics. Name dropping does science make, especially when the names are non sequiturs.
I have a question here.
And please take this the right way, I'm not being hostile to you (though I am hostile to Gold), I'm just genuinely curious about a way of looking at life that is totally foreign to me.
Reading this guy seems to be an indication of searching for something, perhaps the same search that led you to get trapped by El Ron. Am I off base here?
If not, can you articulate what, exactly, you are searching for? And why with dipshits like Gurdijeff and Gold?
I can not fathom it.
And I don't trust gurus.
The wisdom you guys evince here on this board far surpasses anything these esoteric gurus come up with. And why do you think a middlin'-to fair jazz musician with a couple of science fiction novels under his belt has the wherewithal to find out anything deeply spiritual? The guy was given a huge head start in life by his Science Fiction editor father, and from where I stand as a guy who fought and clawed his way to get where he is with no starting advantages, I think Gold wasted his talents. The only thing that saved him from starting a cult like Hubbard's is that, being born in privilege, he didn't have the same gumption.
You know I'm a materialist and don't believe in any of this stuff, but even if I did, I'd rather listen to you guys on this board than a blowhard like Gold any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
F.Bullbait
Oh, a wise guy,eh?
I read some of Gurdjieff's work in the 60's. Didn't care for it much. The one thing that stuck was the Music of the Spheres. My first introduction to the concept of Tone. Later I looked into Scientology and came across Tone Scale.
Later I read some of Ouespenky's memoirs regarding Gurdjieff and found them to be entertaining. Sufi concepts of Tone are quite interesting.
In the 80's I was in a Native American drum group for a couple of years. My prior exposure to these different concepts of Tone was quite helpful in getting the most out of that experience.
Later I read some of Ouespenky's memoirs regarding Gurdjieff and found them to be entertaining. Sufi concepts of Tone are quite interesting.
In the 80's I was in a Native American drum group for a couple of years. My prior exposure to these different concepts of Tone was quite helpful in getting the most out of that experience.
F.Bullbait
Oh, a wise guy,eh?
That's a hoot...and only $1890!
I especially like the Legal Stuff page. http://www.brane-power.com/disclaimer.html
I especially like the Legal Stuff page. http://www.brane-power.com/disclaimer.html
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