Has Scn discredited consciousness exploration?

Veda

Sponsor
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" Unimaginable extensions of awareness are now possible in terms of existing techniques [including exotic psychoactive substances]. Let's set up a center where these techniques can be pooled, and challenge anyone to come out and share what they have.

"Let's explore inner space. Your inner space belongs to you. It's time to demand what is yours."

William Burroughs, ex-Scientologist in the early 1970s.

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John Lilly experimented with LSD and with Sense Deprivation and the two combined. He also worked with Dolphins, and was involved with SETI - the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence.

He was an explorer of both inner and outer space.

An interview with an older Lilly:

Yes, he may have spent a little too much time exploring inner and outer space, so some of his words are a bit hard to understand. Listen carefully. IMO, still, quite interesting.

 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
No, Scn has very little traction in the real world, it is a very niche as compared to other groups.

I would also say that Scn really doesn't do much, if any, "consciousness exploring" in its practices.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
I don't think Scientology has necessarily discredited the exploration of consciousness, but I do think it deters ex Scientologists from looking any further into the nature of consciousness. Once burned twice shy.

Scientology makes a lot of atheists. I think people usually leave Scientology with a lot of trauma attached and are unwilling to look again at anything that even smalls like exploration of the mind or consciousness.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
I don't think Scientology has necessarily discredited the exploration of consciousness, but I do think it deters ex Scientologists from looking any further into the nature of consciousness. Once burned twice shy.

Scientology makes a lot of atheists. I think people usually leave Scientology with a lot of trauma attached and are unwilling to look again at anything that even smalls like exploration of the mind or consciousness.
Yes Emma, what you say certainly rings true for me. There are so many conflicting theories and theses concerning the mind/sprituality/awareness etc that I'm not sure we'll ever get to the truth about it all and I've certainly given up trying.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
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cosmicsphere.jpg



" Unimaginable extensions of awareness are now possible in terms of existing techniques [including exotic psychoactive substances]. Let's set up a center where these techniques can be pooled, and challenge anyone to come out and share what they have.

"Let's explore inner space. Your inner space belongs to you. It's time to demand what is yours."

William Burroughs, ex-Scientologist in the early 1970s.

___________​


John Lilly experimented with LSD and with Sense Deprivation and the two combined. He also worked with Dolphins, and was involved with SETI - the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence.

He was an explorer of both inner and outer space.

An interview with an older Lilly:

Yes, he may have spent a little too much time exploring inner and outer space, so some of his words are a bit hard to understand. Listen carefully. IMO, still, quite interesting.

Personally I do have a strong interest in this exploration, but it took me many years to get to that point after leaving.

Scientology hasn't discredited consciousness exploration. But @Emma nailed it. Scientology has have a major impact on us, and our attitudes towards consciousness exploration.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Personally I do have a strong interest in this exploration, but it took me many years to get to that point after leaving.

Scientology hasn't discredited consciousness exploration. But @Emma nailed it. Scientology has have a major impact on us, and our attitudes towards consciousness exploration.
Yeah I'm just dipping my toe back in too.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
Personally I do have a strong interest in this exploration, but it took me many years to get to that point after leaving.

Scientology hasn't discredited consciousness exploration. But @Emma nailed it. Scientology has have a major impact on us, and our attitudes towards consciousness exploration.
Yeah I'm just dipping my toe back in too.
Just stay away from them acids guys, I hear mushrooms are way better when you swim with dolphins. :cool:
 

Veda

Sponsor
As far as I know, the Monroe Institute has not become a cult and has a pretty good reputation.

Randomly selected video

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Nonetheless, becoming involved an anything even vaguely "New Agey," after Scientology, can be difficult.

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Yet one should never stop looking up.

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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I was thinking more like ayahuasca. :fly2:
I've heard some amazing life changing accounts about the use of ayahuasca.

But have also heard of bad experiences as well. I don't include that to discourage the use of it, but rather to encourage one to research it enough so you can understand why people had bad experiences and you can avoid that.

I tried just now (unsuccessfully) to find a good article I had read on it many years ago. Didn't find it but stumbled upon this one:

Veterans using ayahuasca to cure depression and PTSD
http://Veterans using ayahuasca to cure depression and PTSD
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
There are also some very promising results being seen with MDMA and psilocybin to treat PTSD.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
There are also some very promising results being seen with MDMA and psilocybin to treat PTSD.
Here's a couple articles about a study done a few miles down the road from me. It's a study on mice, but promising:

New study shows magic mushrooms repair brain damage caused by extreme trauma
https://www.naturalnews.com/041393_psilocybin_psychological_disorders_magic_mushrooms.html

PTSD study: Magic Mushroom psilocybin may treat conditioned fear
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/353812
 

scientia

Patron
I don't think Scientology has necessarily discredited the exploration of consciousness, but I do think it deters ex Scientologists from looking any further into the nature of consciousness. Once burned twice shy.

Scientology makes a lot of atheists. I think people usually leave Scientology with a lot of trauma attached and are unwilling to look again at anything that even smalls like exploration of the mind or consciousness.

What would be the point? Serious question.

Scientology utilises a sci-fi narrative to strengthen the therapeutic value of the placebo effect. That value is subjective, rooted entirely in self belief.

Our perceptions are formed and filtered through many layers of interpretation, susceptible to all kinds of cognitive biases, prior agreements and conditioning. If we are the product of those interpretations - the meanings we give to our experiences - then we are essentially the product of our own self belief.

And we are vulnerable to our own deception. We live in a world where peak experiences can be implanted through suggestion and manipulation. Where a placebo has comparable therapeutic value to a number of psychoactive substances. Where a nocebo can induce physical illness, even resulting in death. With this in mind, particularly with regards to "spiritual" pursuits, I'd argue the assignment of other-worldly causes to therapeutic results is now rather quaint and outmoded.

Is "consciousness exploration" just another way of interpreting the illusive to empower the self?

Can we not empower ourselves without deviating from logic and reason?

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" -- Douglas Adams
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
What would be the point? Serious question.
For me, the point is exploring what our true nature is, and the nature of the universe in which we occupy.

Scientology utilises a sci-fi narrative to strengthen the therapeutic value of the placebo effect. That value is subjective, rooted entirely in self belief.
To a large extent I agree with this. :yes:

But there are some benefits that are objective. If someone clearly improves their ability to communicate, then others can see that. It's not just purely subjective.

There are other benefits that are promised that can be objectively verified via the scientific method, but Scientology is allergic to the scientific method.

It would really be easy though to test whether:
1) People can increase their IQ by 1 point per hour of auditing
2) Improve their ability to find parking spaces as a result of completing OT levels
3) Discarding one's glasses as a result of auditing (as Hubbard assured us we can do.
And many other promised benefits as well.

<snip>


And we are vulnerable to our own deception.
Yes, we are vulnerable to our own deception. And our ability to understand the universe is quite limited because we don't yes possess the tools as of yet to apply the scientific method to many questions. Plus our perception is extremely limited. We're only able to perceive a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum via our senses. What we perceive as reality is an illusion in a sense. Our concept of reality is not true just because that's how we perceive it.

Despite all the many things that can hinder us from this type of exploration though many still choose to explore and find benefits from it.
And maybe THAT is the point.

We live in a world where peak experiences can be implanted through suggestion and manipulation. Where a placebo has comparable therapeutic value to a number of psychoactive substances. Where a nocebo can induce physical illness, even resulting in death. With this in mind, particularly with regards to "spiritual" pursuits, I'd argue the assignment of other-worldly causes to therapeutic results is now rather quaint and outmoded.
There's a world of trouble one can get into as well from getting involved in romantic relationships with others. You can expose yourself to all kinds of deception, betrayal, and run the risk of hooking up with a sociopath or other types one shouldn't partner up with.

Should we discontinue that pursuit as well to avoid the pitfalls one can experience?

Is "consciousness exploration" just another way of interpreting the illusive to empower the self?

Can we not empower ourselves without deviating from logic and reason?
When I was about 17 years of age and still in high school I took a series of tests to determine what my IQ was and my aptitude was in various areas. It was preparation to determine what career I should pursue, and to help determine what major in college to choose. The test for logical thinking showed I was in the top 1% for my age group for that.

Several years later is when I got involved in Scientology. My IQ (which also tested high) and logical thinking didn't help me avoid the danger of getting sucked into a cult. There are other kinds of intelligence besides those two things. My EQ (emotional intelligence) was horrific, and was a contributing factor as to what made me vulnerable to scientology manipulative recruitment tactics. There were other factors as well. But my point is that logic and reason, while they may be critical in making correct decisions in life, they are not the total answer.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have to wonder how different things would be if the TRs were taken out and people never experienced that initial "exteriorization" that drew them deeper into Scientology? How many of us got into Scientology because we believed in spirituality and reincarnation and thought that this proved LRH had a real way to control being out of body? Over time we learn to go to this place deliberately and more easily but neither I nor anyone I know has been able to prove that it was something more than a bio-chemical phenomena or the Ganzfeld Effect where the brain is trying to compensate for sensory deprivation. I'm not saying it isn't really an instance of a spirit being partially or fully out of the body. I don't have the answers, but I can say that I have never seen anyone prove beyond any doubt that it was or that Scientology actually was able to make people capable of fully controlling being out of body or exterior.

Now if the following Scientology experience remained fun and light and wasn't manipulative and cruel then we might be content to settle with what appeared to be a partial exteriorization but when it does become increasingly manipulative and cruel without delivering what it promises it becomes apparent that this sense of exteriorization was only used as a hook.

I can still want to believe exteriorization is an out of body phenomena and even if I do I sure will require something much more substantial before I believe someone has the answers. Our morals and ethics tend to be based on sense of spirituality or philosophy based on logic or a combination. I think getting burned by Scientology may not purge a sense of ethics based on spirituality but I do think it shifts it more toward logic.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Yet one should never stop looking up.

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I'd say the opposite

One should never stop looking down, within

All there is to know, to understand, to accomplish,
lies within oneself, when the mind is quiet, allowing the higher self to emerge out of the mind and frantic quests.





 

Little David

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't think Scientology has necessarily discredited the exploration of consciousness, but I do think it deters ex Scientologists from looking any further into the nature of consciousness. Once burned twice shy.

Scientology makes a lot of atheists. I think people usually leave Scientology with a lot of trauma attached and are unwilling to look again at anything that even smalls like exploration of the mind or consciousness.
Not being religious doesn't decrease my desire to study the science of consciousness.

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