He who knows does not speak . . . .

Gib

Crusader
To be fair, Hubbard didn't create this messy Scientology as we experience it now.

Scientology used to be fun when I was there. Going to the Org meant meeting friends and going out together after course. I don't think there is something inherently wrong with Scientology itself. Hubbard contradicted himself often enough which is a good thing. At least there is enough leeway for how Scientology can evolve over time.

Hubbard was a visionary and inspired people to give their best (or their worst if you look at Scientology now). Visions don't always turn out to be true. Some good things happened to people because of Hubbard and Scientology. Some bad things happened also because of it.

Take the good things with you, and take the bad ones as necessary tests to overcome on your way to the next level of play :)

maybe you was not on the Apollo while hubbard was doing his OT research,

and maybe you wasn't pushing a peanut around on the deck of the ship,

and maybe you never experienced other whistle blower stories of hubbard.

WTF
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I agree to

''Scientology used to be fun when I was there. Going to the Org meant meeting friends and going out together after course. ''


I missed so much this time when we were ''not coerced'' to know the truth about the abuse, mental mindfuck and control, extortion, locking and torture of people, seck checking, rpf...
I miss so much this time we would enjoy at night, and not knowing about the one who suffered for us to enjoy!

So entheta!
 
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Anonycat

Crusader
I disagree.[Wise words]

I agree with all of that. Here on the left coast, Bent was kicking butt, and interestingly he also told me he was never a scientologist. I was a '70s client - the first half of the '70's to be slightly more specific.

One problem I have encountered while trying to describe the hippie moment, is it's as difficult as describing the 1973 experience of being at a scientology cult bunker taking a class.

People were so immersed in the openness and freedom of that era, that even on a one-on-one level, the cult could not totally undo the culture the kids were feeling at that time. It was more fun, because people were more fun. But, that era died quickly, and the new norm was always replacing the old.

Screw scientology, they were simply better times for of-age youth. I think it is significant and vital to separate the two, and see them as they are.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I disagree.

The ONLY reason some of you/us recall the "good 'ole days" with fond associations is because Hubbard had not yet consolidated the CONTROL of the Scientology organizational groups (missions, orgs, etc.). But, he was ALWAYS working in THAT direction. It was sometimes "fun" pre-1982 (Mission Holders conference, mass declares and WDC missions), because orgs, and more so the MISSIONS, could and did PICK & CHOOSE what to follow and WHAT NOT TO FOLLOW.

Hubbard has always been fond of CONTROL. The word appears all throughout the subject materials of Scientology. Look at check sheets and routing forms. Hubbard created and designed them both. There is absolute control of each "particle" (human being) at every step of the way, whether it be where to send a new walk-in, where and how to "crush reg" a "winning PC", how to manipulate with the ruin-finding drill, the strict enforcement of mandatory "success stories" and "attestations" of absurd states (where it is per policy Treason assignment to change your mind later), following orders as the "best solution", INT level org boards, command channels into orgs, "command intention", and on and on.

Hubbard LOVED control and he began the tendency to micro-manage every aspect of Scientology. DM simply took it to the logical conclusion that had already been started by Hubbard. I would say that Hubbard took the idea of the thetan-mind-body analogy to management, to INSANE limits. The "thetan" CONTROLS the body. The thetan CONTROLS all aspects of its environment (Hubbard wrote lots about extending CONTROL out into ones environment).

Control - control - control, manipulate and manage start-change-stop, effect changes at every point in ones environment (the Scientology IDEAL), "total cause" over everything, "management" (of all particles, terminals and people), making the environment conform to YOUR wishes and desires, again, ad nauseum.

The Admin Scale is basically rooted in CONTROL. Goals, purposes, plans, policy, projects, programs and orders flow from THE TOP DOWN. Always, always, always. In the "good 'ole days", the "command and control lines" (which Hubbard had always been perfecting, fine-tuning and struggling VERY HARD to implement across the planet in his orgs and missions) had yet to be "slammed in". This "golden age" that some of you wax romantic about was a simple transitional "passing moment" that was NEVER to Hubbard's liking.

The great insanity of Scientology is deeply woven into the subject materials themselves. Sure, you can choose to ignore, omit, and alter great amounts of Hubbard's lunacy, but then really, you are NOT "practicing Scientology". You can say, claim, assert and demand that you are, as some have done and some continue to do here on ESMB, but that is total bullshit.

Some of you who call yourselves Scientologists freely toss out SP declares, the nutty lists of suppressive acts, heavy ethics, condition assignments, the RPF, crush regging, hard sell, manipulation of others through ARC trickery (ruin-finding drill), per policy PR, and so forth. That shit, and much more, should all be tossed aside. But what is left is NOTHING Hubbard would have approved of - other than in some of your delusional over-imaginative minds. :ohmy: :nervous: :omg:

The truth is that some or many of you pick and choose abundantly (which is good and necessary considering the great amounts of SHIT in the subject), yet still think with this absurd notion that you "are a Scientologist", and are "practicing TRUE Scientology". :hysterical:

Hubbard did not want any "natural" evolution of Scientology (which you mentioned above). Again, he MANIPULATED every aspect of it, as best that he could, from PR, to regging drills, to how to cave-in a critic, to how to get a "response" from a public Scientologist, to command channels, to Hard Sell, ad nauseum.

:puke2:

When I got in back in 1976, in Boston, and then at NYC (1977), it was easily obvious that what was going on in the big NYC missions was FAR different than the Class IV orgs (that were under Sea Org control). The Missions had far MORE highly trained auditors, the staff got paid FAR MORE, the stats were often far HIGHER than the orgs who they were supposed to be channeling public to, the rules were FAR looser, they had NO STUPID SEA ORG MISSIONAIRES coming into their missions to screw them up, and on and on. They were not yet "under Hubbard's control". Hubbard, through DM and others, was happy to decimate what was a highly successful "expansion of Scientology" to INSTEAD obtain greater long-term CONTROL.

The concept and ideal of "control" runs rampant throughout the subject and practices of Scientology.

:thumbsup::clap:

This is all so, sooo true. :yes:

I got into Scn in the mid '60's. I was Cl IV Org Staff in the latter '60's. I was Apollo Crew in the early '70's. I was SU Staff in the latter mid 70's. I left the SO in the early mid '80's and scn shortly after. I was on El Ron's "Personal Lines" and, face to Face, interacted with Hisself for years.

"The good old days" was a moment in time that was, IMHO, more a matter of "The Times" and where a lot of Folks heads were at then and not "Scn, at its Best".

Balthasar doesn't like my "Stuff" re: El Ron on this Board, has said so on several occasions and just "can't" read but a scintilla of a fraction of it because of my "writing style". Balthasar sees me as "trite", a "whiner", a "sissy" who's perspective is "skewed" by intellectual, personal or emotional weakness.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Balthasar never met El Ron...Blathasar was never on the Apollo...Balthasar was never in the SO...Balthasar was not, between the years of '66 and '84, personally at or conversing with the Execs and Staffs of 18 or so different Orgs, 16 or so different Missions and knew and spent time with conversing with dozens of then "Old Timer" Field Auditors from the '50's and early '60's, all of the Major Mission Holders and many of the "minor" Mission Holders and DCG ED's.

But Balthasar, for some reason, seeks to remember, hold on to and paint a picture of a persona that never existed, in a place that never was, in a time that never happened...other than that of his own invention and imagination.

Face:)
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
:thumbsup::clap:

This is all so, sooo true. :yes:

I got into Scn in the mid '60's. I was Cl IV Org Staff in the latter '60's. I was Apollo Crew in the early '70's. I was SU Staff in the latter mid 70's. I left the SO in the early mid '80's and scn shortly after. I was on El Ron's "Personal Lines" and, face to Face, interacted with Hisself for years.

"The good old days" was a moment in time that was, IMHO, more a matter of "The Times" and where a lot of Folks heads were at then and not "Scn, at its Best".

Balthasar doesn't like my "Stuff" re: El Ron on this Board and has said so on several occasions. Balthasar sees me as a "whiner", who's perspective is "skewed" by my intellectual and emotional weakness.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Balthasar never met El Ron...Blathasar was never on the Apollo...Balthasar was never in the SO...Balthasar was not, between the years of '66 and '84, personally at or conversing with the Execs and Staffs of 14 or so different Orgs, 16 or so different Missions and knew and spent time with conversing with dozens of then "Old Timer" Field Auditors from the '50's and early '60's, all of the Major Mission Holders and many of the "minor" Mission Holders and DCG ED's.

But Balthasar, for some reason, seeks to remember, hold on to and paint a picture of a persona that never existed, in a place that never was, in a time that never happened, (EDIT) other than his own invention and imagination.


:hysterical:


"A being creates their own feelings." - Dr. Hubbard

"A being manufactures their own facts." - Dr. Balthasar
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
To be fair, Hubbard didn't create this messy Scientology as we experience it now.

Scientology used to be fun when I was there. Going to the Org meant meeting friends and going out together after course. I don't think there is something inherently wrong with Scientology itself. Hubbard contradicted himself often enough which is a good thing. At least there is enough leeway for how Scientology can evolve over time.

Hubbard was a visionary and inspired people to give their best (or their worst if you look at Scientology now). Visions don't always turn out to be true. Some good things happened to people because of Hubbard and Scientology. Some bad things happened also because of it.

Take the good things with you, and take the bad ones as necessary tests to overcome on your way to the next level of play :)

Elcon crafted $cientology from the ground up, tweaking the psychological mind control aspects for decades, becoming a mini-dictator in the process. Due to the very nature of $cientology's cultist fabrications, members were and are useful idiots, convenient dupes masking the true nature of the cult, even fighting vehemently for it's continuation to this day.

Of course to a $cientologist it is fun (at first), clearing the planet, the war against the psychs, going up the bridge, blah blah blah button sorting diversionary sheep work while indoctrinating members into giving up their freedom and money to further imprison them and protect $cientology.

The grandiose wishful thinking statements offered towards people that know better that were in for decades while amusing, isn't convincing. Try taking up plucking chickens or raise a pet rock until you fine tune your dessim drill.


640px-2008_03_Google_Lisa_McPherson_protest_sign.jpg
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
"The good old days" was a moment in time that was, IMHO, more a matter of
"The Times" and where a lot of Folks heads were at then and not "Scn, at its Best."

Old timers, veterans, others need to keep reading posts on ESMB until they "cognite"
and voice the above. They will have essentially cleared out a major misconception
and feel a lot better.

That's the "clear cognition" for the ESMB experience actually. They can then route to attest. :yes:

That's one of my big, big takeaways from hanging around here. :thumbsup:

Happened suddenly reading one of Face's posts a couple years ago. :biggrin:

This one . . . about Scn’s sails catching some the winds of change
that were blowing around in the culture at the time:

The “Lucky Few” generation, the “Baby Boomer” generation and, most importantly, a unique “composite” force out of these two forces; the Corssover Chohort Group (CCG)...the latter years of the Few's and the early years of the Boomers.

The latter years members of the “Few’s” were heavily influenced by their counter-culture sub-cohort group, the "Beatniks". The earlier years members of the “Boomer’s” were heavily influenced by their own counter-culture sub-cohort group—spawned by the “Beats’—the "Hippies".

This (CCG) is the cultural, numerical, educational, economic “pig in the python’. It is the driving wind that has filled sails and sunk ships for the last 50 years. El Ron thought that the rise of Scn in the late ‘50’s and the “Boom” years was due to his Tech and Admin brilliance, his executive acumen…it wasn’t. It was mostly due to Scn’s sails catching some of the CCG winds of change.
 
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l whip

Patron
Why so much entheta and hatred ???
:grouch:

:lol:

Because the winds of change are blowing, the cries of outrage swell into an angry tide of ill-feeling that spreads across the earth. The time has come for Scientology to be called into account for their crimes against humanity. How much longer can they shelter behind their fiction of being a religion, and use their bogus terms such as entheta? We are the people that were tricked, swindled and lied to. We, who hoped for the best and got the worst, can no longer shoulder the blame for what these deluded people do, we want to see an end to it.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Because the winds of change are blowing, the cries of outrage swell into an angry tide of ill-feeling that spreads across the earth. The time has come for Scientology to be called into account for their crimes against humanity. How much longer can they shelter behind their fiction of being a religion, and use their bogus terms such as entheta? We are the people that were tricked, swindled and lied to. We, who hoped for the best and got the worst, can no longer shoulder the blame for what these deluded people do, we want to see an end to it.






Lol ... I think it's more likely to be a simple lack of sleep ... (not that I'd noticed any 'entheta or hatred').


:biggrin:
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
I disagree.

The ONLY reason some of you/us recall the "good 'ole days" with fond associations is because Hubbard had not yet consolidated the CONTROL of the Scientology organizational groups (missions, orgs, etc.). But, he was ALWAYS working in THAT direction. It was sometimes "fun" pre-1982 (Mission Holders conference, mass declares and WDC missions), because orgs, and more so the MISSIONS, could and did PICK & CHOOSE what to follow and WHAT NOT TO FOLLOW.

Absolutely correct! Bent Corydon's Riverside Mission was a lot of fun in the 70's/80's. Especially for 'reges' (Registrars, or the guys who made the sales.) who could pull in a very nice middle class income and still be a staff member. Everybody went home at night after 'course'. At one point, Bent provided a nice breakfast in the old YMCA kitchen to help get staff on post quicker. The place was pretty busy for many years.

Of course, they were screwing people over, promising the Moon, and getting them to expend every last financial resource they had, and were urging people to make false statements on loan applications. It would all be true once you went OT!


Hubbard has always been fond of CONTROL. The word appears all throughout the subject materials of Scientology. Look at check sheets and routing forms. Hubbard created and designed them both. There is absolute control of each "particle" (human being) at every step of the way, whether it be where to send a new walk-in, where and how to "crush reg" a "winning PC", how to manipulate with the ruin-finding drill, the strict enforcement of mandatory "success stories" and "attestations" of absurd states (where it is per policy Treason assignment to change your mind later), following orders as the "best solution", INT level org boards, command channels into orgs, "command intention", and on and on.

He once said; "There is no such thing as bad control, only lack of control". No shit.


Hubbard LOVED control and he began the tendency to micro-manage every aspect of Scientology. DM simply took it to the logical conclusion that had already been started by Hubbard. I would say that Hubbard took the idea of the thetan-mind-body analogy to management, to INSANE limits. The "thetan" CONTROLS the body. The thetan CONTROLS all aspects of its environment (Hubbard wrote lots about extending CONTROL out into ones environment).

You simply can't have too much control! Yup, that was him.

Control - control - control, manipulate and manage start-change-stop, effect changes at every point in ones environment (the Scientology IDEAL), "total cause" over everything, "management" (of all particles, terminals and people), making the environment conform to YOUR wishes and desires, again, ad nauseum.

What he preached, but seemed to fail to practice, was that when you held a flow too long in one direction, it tends to reverse on it's own.


The idea of making the world conform to YOUR wishes and desires stems from MAGICK and occult disciplines.

Intention is cause. - L. Ron Hubbard

Yup. He was a SOURCErer.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I disagree . . . <snip wise words> . . . The concept and ideal of "control" runs rampant throughout the subject and practices of Scientology. It is a key reason WHY it is so INSANE! :yes:

Yep. At least L Ron Hubbard wasn't shy about the need to impose control right from the first moment a person encounters Scientology. Some highlights from "scripture":

L Ron Hubbard said:
Control = Income.

When you have people who cannot control people on PE and Registration posts, your income falls or vanishes.

This comes about from the state of "self-determinism" in the society today. What with advertising and stepped-up political and economic controls, the "selfdeterminism" of the general public is only reactivism.

As any control we exert upon the public brings about a better society, we are entirely justified in using control.

The best control, for PE and Registration purposes, includes the greater good of the applicant. Therefore, KNOWINGNESS must be included with control.

One must discover what is best for the applicant and then control him into obtaining it. Leaving it up to his "self-determinism" is really leaving it up to his reactive mind.

With our current rundown of processing (SOP Goals), any staff member will sooner or later get his or her control button freed up.

But if there are financial emergencies, as these affect all staff, the entire staff should be tested out for knowingness and control and those members who are best at it should be placed in Registration and the PE Foundation.

Priority of personnel by degree of ability to control is as follows:
Chief Registrar (Body Reg)
PE Director
Letter Registrar
D ofP
PE Personnel
D of T . . .

At this stage it is necessary that our best control personnel come into the closest contact with the public.

Income is proportional to the control exertion of our personnel.

People with an abiding faith in the "self-determinism" of public persons should not be allowed near PE and Registration lines.

The control skill of a staff member can be tested. Bad-control factors aremost easily recognized. Staffs should be tested on control.

Current rundown will eventually boost up all staff members to a high level ofcontrol. We may not be able to afford to wait and let income suffer.

The whole staff can have its control level raised by Upper Indoc. Upper Indoc is the most reliable test of control skill.

^^^ HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 FEBRUARY 1961 Issue II CHOOSING PE AND REGISTRATION PERSONNEL

L Ron Hubbard said:
To live at all, one has to exert some control over his equals as well as his juniors and (believe it or not) his superiors . . .

In a group where members have some concept of controlling their environment and their fellows, you don't have loafers or out-ethics cats. Because the rest of the group, on an individual basis, just won't tolerate it.

IT IS A FAILURE OF THE INDIVIDUAL GROUP MEMBERS TO CONTROL THEIR FELLOWS THAT MAKES A GROUP HARD FOR ALL TO LIVE AND WORK WITH.

If it is present, when that is cured, the group will become a joy to be with and work will become a breeze. If the stats of a group, large or small, are down, try it. And get a REAL group in return that, collectively, can control the environment
and prosper because its group members individually help control each other.

^^^HCO POLICY LETTER OF 22 JULY 1982 - IMPORTANT - KNOWLEDGE REPORTS

And so it goes on.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
There is a similar proverb with Zen

something like

The one who knows speak wisdom as he know he doesn't know! :wink2:
The one who has a lot to teach doesn't know he doesn't know, so..hum....


Because, ultimately, (speaking of spiritual) there is nothing to know...nothing to teach...there is only to be!
:confused2:
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
“Be the silent watcher of your thoughts and behavior. You are beneath the thinker. You are the stillness beneath the mental noise. You are the love and joy beneath the pain.”
― Eckhart Tolle
 

Gadfly

Crusader
The fact here is that I took the original OP quote OUT OF CONTEXT. :biggrin: :coolwink:

It is in regards to "the Tao". Add a few more lines such as this one to the original and you start to get the full idea:

"The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be defined is not the unchanging name."

I selectively took it out of context to piss on Hubbard's endless tendency towards garish excess, haughty verbosity and arrogant spewing . . . . :omg: :ohmy:

I like this section (the truth is IN YOU) from the Tao Te Ching - but you have to learn how to really shut the fuck up (internally, mentally) to "see it" (get "silent", become one with the silent watcher or observer):

Since before time and space were,
the Tao is.
It is beyond is and is not.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.


:itstrue:
 
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