Hello from germany and appeal for ideas/experiences with repayments

tjeff

New Member
Hello all,

I left Scn about 2 years ago, but I don´t want to bore anyone with the details, because they are quite unspectacular in my case (although I was in for almost 25 years...).
Besides, the reason to join the board is rather, that I am in a catch 22 with my repayment claim on Durban Org, SA. I already got repayed by my local org, the Southafrica payment I had made ten yrs. ago out of my general "free market"-attitude, halucinating deludedly, that my local org would let me go and take auditing in SA...
Anyway, I want my money back and started requesting it more than a year ago. Skipping details again, CVB let me know via IJC, that I have to go to SA and do the routing form (yes, sure).
It was about 1800 euros (due to sinking exchange-rates will be only 1200 or so now :ohmy:).
I wrote a harsh letter (ran out of kindness on this one) to IJC (he had told me also that he´s my only terminal, blabla), but the letter returned with "address not suffciently specific".
Then I contacted the NCC (SA nat. consumer comission), but they dont answer.
I have run out of ideas.
Anyone?

Best
Thomas
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Hello all,

I left Scn about 2 years ago, but I don´t want to bore anyone with the details, because they are quite unspectacular in my case (although I was in for almost 25 years...).
Besides, the reason to join the board is rather, that I am in a catch 22 with my repayment claim on Durban Org, SA. I already got repayed by my local org, the Southafrica payment I had made ten yrs. ago out of my general "free market"-attitude, halucinating deludedly, that my local org would let me go and take auditing in SA...
Anyway, I want my money back and started requesting it more than a year ago. Skipping details again, CVB let me know via IJC, that I have to go to SA and do the routing form (yes, sure).
It was about 1800 euros (due to sinking exchange-rates will be only 1200 or so now :ohmy:).
I wrote a harsh letter (ran out of kindness on this one) to IJC (he had told me also that he´s my only terminal, blabla), but the letter returned with "address not suffciently specific".
Then I contacted the NCC (SA nat. consumer comission), but they dont answer.
I have run out of ideas.
Anyone?

Best
Thomas

A solicitor's letter might do the trick, though that might cost.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
:welcome2: tjef

Maybe the below quote will help with some general guidelines for refunds.

Writing about your experiences can be very cathartic. I know it was for me. And talking – speaking to a trusted ex in person can be very fulfilling as well.

When I visited Australia in 2008 and met a lot of exes, I was amazed at how much we had in common. There were big differences in the amount of time ‘in’, on / off staff , case or training levels, but the same things kept coming up time and time again. For example, nearly everyone said that when they didn’t get what they expected out of the auditing or training or their lives went in the wrong direction, they thought there was something wrong with them.

And all the time, it was the organisation and ‘Tech’. It didn’t work as advertised.

Remember that you don’t have to do it all at once. Take your time and do only what you feel comfortable doing.

As for the refund, this is a great idea.

From my own experiences and reading and hearing about others, it is difficult to predict exactly what sort of response you will get. The first thing to bear in mind is that the vast majority of orgs are virtually insolvent. They have urgent bills (phones, utilities, materials etc) and the staff are lucky to get paid at all, let alone a working wage (but don’t feel sorry for them). So, when your repayment request comes in, it will go to the bottom of the pile and stay there unless you do something to get it at the top. You have to be prepared to get mean and nasty. Seriously.

Make sure you bear that in mind at all times.

1. Get together all your receipts and payment records and work out how much is in your account. If possible, get them to confirm this, in writing.
2. Read up on the relevant policies re refunds and repayments and quote this in all correspondence (i.e. they have to pay promptly). Send them a letter (recorded delivery) asking for your money back and how much you are expecting. Give them a deadline to reply by.
3. Repeat until you get an answer. Be prepared to threaten legal action if they don’t reply.
4. Don’t take any bullshit or get fobbed off. You don’t want an ARC X session or a meeting with the chaplin – you just want your money back.
5. They may ask you to complete a routing form in the org. Be prepared to follow reasonable requests, but have a friend go with you for backup.
6. If they get around to offering to pay you, they may ask you to sign a waiver. You don’t have to sign this – it is your money, you don’t have to promise to never speak about it.
7. If they don’t play ball you will have to make a nuisance of yourself. Write to the local media, newspapers, TV, radio, local council, state representative, regulatory bodies – anyone you can think of. If you live in the USA, write to the IRS and tell them that they are refusing to abide by the agreement between the IRS and the CoS. Make it more costly for them to not pay.

I had to do all of this and finally got my money when I threatened to take them to court. The threat of bad publicity also helped a lot.

But, having said that, I have heard that the cult is taking a very hard line of any sort of repayment or refund now. There was a case in Florida (http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts...couples-dispute-over-scientology-debt/1219054 ) where the cult refused to repay because they said that Lynne and Bert didn’t follow the correct procedure. That is why you have to give them the opportunity to follow their own procedures. If they then don’t answer or otherwise play ball, then expose them for the hypocrites that they are and take them to court.

They will probably try to weasel out of it, but you have to be firm and stand your ground.

Good luck,

Axiom142
 

tjeff

New Member
:welcome2: tjef

Maybe the below quote will help with some general guidelines for refunds.

Thanks a lot FB, the PR, publicity thing is exactly what I was thinking about. Making myself a nuisance. I guess I will try a local newspaper...
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Hello all,

I left Scn about 2 years ago, but I don´t want to bore anyone with the details, because they are quite unspectacular in my case (although I was in for almost 25 years...).
Besides, the reason to join the board is rather, that I am in a catch 22 with my repayment claim on Durban Org, SA. I already got repayed by my local org, the Southafrica payment I had made ten yrs. ago out of my general "free market"-attitude, halucinating deludedly, that my local org would let me go and take auditing in SA...
Anyway, I want my money back and started requesting it more than a year ago. Skipping details again, CVB let me know via IJC, that I have to go to SA and do the routing form (yes, sure).
It was about 1800 euros (due to sinking exchange-rates will be only 1200 or so now :ohmy:).

<snip>

Huh? If you payed 1800 €, the exchange rates are no issue and you demand to get your 1800 € back. If you payed the equivalent of 1800 € in Dollars (or any other currency), that'd be a different cup of tea and exchange rates would definitely be an issue. So what is it?
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Yep. But I guess a german lawyer wouldn´t have to much of an effect. So I would have to mandate an international solicitors office. Probably would cost decently...

Could you get verbraucherzentrale to help, or some kind of Ombudsman?
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Could you get verbraucherzentrale to help, or some kind of Ombudsman?

I don't think that would help. I am not a lawyer, but from what I've read, it might be necessary to find a lawyer who has permission to work in Durban, SA - which might be expensive and tedious.
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Write one more demand letter - tell them a "Clear" sent you the confidential "clear" cognition which is:

I am mocking up my own reactive mind but can control it and stop it"
.

Tell them you feel defrauded because the "advertising" is misleading and fraudulant - "GET RID OF YOUR REACTIVE MIND"!!

Give them 7 days to refund the money or you are going to the MEDIA and are going to take them to small claims court . Tell them that Scientology does not use its justice system to help anyone - just themselves keep money on account. Send them the Luis Garcia Lawsuit, Monique Rathbun Lawsuit etc...

If you signed the Scientology "lawyered up contract" known as a "Application and Enrollment Form" - it says you have to go in to do a routing form or Scientology gets to keep all your money.

Tell Scientology that you were lied to about that form and were told by staff members the Application and Enroll. Form was only for "that course", (if that is true for you).

It is the scam they pull here in the United States.
They lie about all money going into Scientology accounts HAS to be deemed donations because they are a "CHURCH" and that the computers are set up that way. They LIE! They do it to keep your money.

File complaints with govt agency but make sure you tell them you have been defrauded and felt you were sold a bill of goods. Tell them you feel deceived and this "church" committed fraud. You are too small for them to fair game!

Contact the media.
 
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tjeff

New Member
Huh? If you payed 1800 €, the exchange rates are no issue and you demand to get your 1800 € back. If you payed the equivalent of 1800 € in Dollars (or any other currency), that'd be a different cup of tea and exchange rates would definitely be an issue. So what is it?

Sorry for the "comm lag" (sometimes I still slip into the lingo...), it´s due to the time shift.
It has been paid by credit card, so I guess they exchanged the money on the way and it arrived as SA Rand over there.

I share your estimates about the SA lawyer, so actually it is the same as with going to SA to get the cycle done: the costs and effort will probably exceed the repayment amount. And also, as things are going, you never know at what point individual orgs will start to go broke...

Well, in contrast to them, I have got time. I´ll start being a nuisance...
 

tjeff

New Member
Could you get verbraucherzentrale to help, or some kind of Ombudsman?

Yep, that was the idea with the "NCC", which is like the southafrican "Verbraucherzentrale". First I went to the "SANCU" (south african national consumer something), they told me to try the NCC. NCC is a governmental unit, so I guess the burocrats there are too busy to answer email or phone calls. I´ll keep on trying. Maybe I also find another consumer agency.
 

tjeff

New Member
Write one more demand letter - tell them a "Clear" sent you the confidential "clear" cognition which is:

I am mocking up my own reactive mind but can control it and stop it"
.

Tell them ...

Hi IM,

thanks a lot for all the great ideas. I like the idea of keeping them up-to-date on what happens in the scientology world :omg:. Actually I think trying to convince them to repay is futile. They know darn well, they have to return my money. That´s why they put up the IJC sock puppet to shield themselves. After a year of talking to them, I think the only thing that helps is going to be pressure.
I didn´t sign anything to them, so they have no excuse whatsoever. And when I got repaid by my local org, I only waived further local claims, not globally.
I will definitely try the "black PR" pressure.

Is there anyone from SA here, who is common with the Scn situation over there?
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't think that would help. I am not a lawyer, but from what I've read, it might be necessary to find a lawyer who has permission to work in Durban, SA - which might be expensive and tedious.

Yep, I believe too, that Thomas will need a lawyer with permission to work in Durban, SA. Verbraucherzentrale won't help here imo. It is international right.

Willkommen und Hallo Thomas. :)
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hi IM,

thanks a lot for all the great ideas. I like the idea of keeping them up-to-date on what happens in the scientology world :omg:. Actually I think trying to convince them to repay is futile. They know darn well, they have to return my money. That´s why they put up the IJC sock puppet to shield themselves. After a year of talking to them, I think the only thing that helps is going to be pressure.

How you will do pressure against them? I believe 1800 € or whatever is nothing for them.

I didn´t sign anything to them, so they have no excuse whatsoever.

If you haven't signed anything, how do you want to get your money back? You need something for the lawyer or what do you mean with this?

And when I got repaid by my local org, I only waived further local claims, not globally.
I will definitely try the "black PR" pressure. <snip>

Ahhh, "kräuseln meiner Fingernägel." Black PR against Scientology, wrong way. You can't win. Be just honest. :)
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Sorry for the "comm lag" (sometimes I still slip into the lingo...), it´s due to the time shift.

Dude, I LIVE in Germany, so don't tell me about time zones. :biggrin: Also: Don't worry about the "comm lag", this board stores it's messages for a VERY long time. :coolwink:

It has been paid by credit card, so I guess they exchanged the money on the way and it arrived as SA Rand over there.

"I guess" doesn't even buy you one coffee - do you have any documentation for this transaction? Can you ask the credit card company about that?

I share your estimates about the SA lawyer, so actually it is the same as with going to SA to get the cycle done: the costs and effort will probably exceed the repayment amount.

If there's one thing I definitely would not recommend, its "going to SA to get the cycle done".

And also, as things are going, you never know at what point individual orgs will start to go broke...

There is a possibility, that this might not matter. According to German laws, you MIGHT be able to hold the official owner of the org personally accountable, if he's got any money left. But this might not apply to SA laws, and even if it were a German org, you'd need a lawyer to sort out the fine prints and the conditions under which this might apply.

Well, in contrast to them, I have got time. I´ll start being a nuisance...

If you use the search function here on ESMB, a search for the terms "refund" and "repayment" might bring up some helpful results for you.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
How you will do pressure against them? I believe 1800 € or whatever is nothing for them.



If you haven't signed anything, how do you want to get your money back? You need something for the lawyer or what do you mean with this?

tjeff probably means that he didn't sign a no-refund clause.


Ahhh, "kräuseln meiner Fingernägel."

Nagelpflege geht heutzutage anders, habe ich mal gehört. :giggle:

Black PR against Scientology, wrong way. You can't win. Be just honest. :)

Agreed. The cultists have a master's degree in Black PR - beating them in that discipline would be even harder than in Legal.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Just another unrefined idea: If SA laws are similar to German laws, it might not even matter if they are broke, since you could seize some of their assets. Furniture, computers, and oh, don't forget these nice and shiny high-quality big-screen displays.
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi IM,

thanks a lot for all the great ideas. I like the idea of keeping them up-to-date on what happens in the scientology world :omg:. Actually I think trying to convince them to repay is futile. They know darn well, they have to return my money. That´s why they put up the IJC sock puppet to shield themselves. After a year of talking to them, I think the only thing that helps is going to be pressure.
I didn´t sign anything to them, so they have no excuse whatsoever. And when I got repaid by my local org, I only waived further local claims, not globally.
I will definitely try the "black PR" pressure.

Is there anyone from SA here, who is common with the Scn situation over there?

If you signed one of the lawyered up contracts - you signed all money deemed donations to be the property of the Church of Scamonology - you can find this contract on the internet. Read it - it will make you cringe. They cleverly put language in to keep all your money.

the only way you will get it back is to threat to make a lot of noise and then make it. contact the govt. agencies, media and file a claim in small claims. Tell Scientology they are selling lies and you have the proof!

The cult is weak and going down fast. The time to move is NOW!

Go for it! We are strong - the cult is weak! They are running out of members and money!
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
If you signed one of the lawyered up contracts - you signed all money deemed donations to be the property of the Church of Scamonology - you can find this contract on the internet. Read it - it will make you cringe. They cleverly put language in to keep all your money.

the only way you will get it back is to threat to make a lot of noise and then make it. contact the govt. agencies, media and file a claim in small claims. Tell Scientology they are selling lies and you have the proof!

The cult is weak and going down fast. The time to move is NOW!

Go for it! We are strong - the cult is weak! They are running out of members and money!

Imo the problem is, that he hasn't lost his money in Germany or Europe. All or the most Germans know what it is for a criminell organisation, that they steal money, kills and.... If he make here trouble, they would say, "he lost the money not in Germany, what other Scientologists in other countries do isn't our problem and so on".

But if Thomas wants to have Media contacts. I can help him, I have a few. Every report about Scientology is good, but he has to think about the consequences eg disconnection, problems to find a work...
 

The_Fixer

Class Clown
If you are only claiming 1800 euros, it would probably cost you more in travel arrangements to get there and back to be worth your while?
 
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