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Hello. I am a scientist.

yon8008

Patron with Honors
Yes, and it's Definition 3 I used to point out what I think is a logical short-circuit. You still haven't replied to that point.
...

Best wishes from the here and now,
- MrNobody

I love the way you counter-poised your closing to my closing!

You're right, there can be a logical short circuit when dealing with Axioms, particularly when people forget that the Axioms ARE JUST ASSUMPTIONS.

LRH DID push them as 'self-evident truths' (definition 1. a self-evident truth that requires no proof) And many people probably didn't know that it was their PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to go and question these, and to decide for themselves whether or not a philosophy built on these Axioms would be likely to work. The reason I say that this is every Scientologists PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is because I really take to heart the "if it's not true for you, then it's not true". In terms of relative importance, I place this principle ahead of everything else.

If you read the Axioms and think, "This is BS!" then it saves you the time of any additional reading anything else. Or, now you can structure your arguments against the basic assumptions. On the other hand, if you put the axioms into the context of definition 3, then they are valuable as the whole rest of the subject really is built from these assumptions.


So in summary:
Axioms ARE ASSUMPTIONS.

The Logical Short Circuit is the Default on the personal responsibility to check these axioms out personally, and to remember that they are definition 3 axioms not definition 1 axioms.


A friendship with a Scientologist? Well, although I wouldn't exclude this possibility completely, the thought slightly amuses me. I doubt it would work, because frankly, in my opinion, the Hubbardian/Scientologist mindset, as far as I've seen, is pretty much a... how can I say... a "monorail" way of thinking that doesn't leave much room for anything individual besides Hubbardian teachings or scriptures.

I have found that understanding the ideologies and affiliations of an individual is a helpful tool when I want to communicate with him/her. Since I am mostly here to communicate with others who would label themselves 'Scientologists' (past or present) - I adopt the language patterns they are most familiar with.

I am willing to wear certain labels, but I do not see them as limiting or confining - they show the diverse viewpoints through which I am actively viewing life. Here are some of the lenses that I am actively viewing life through: 1-Life-Only Atheist, Physicist, Libertarian, Objectivist, Eckankar (www.eckankar.org), Scientologist, Neo-Tech, Gurdjieff, Ron Paul Republican, Alex Jones/9-11 Truth/David Icke Conspiracy Theorist (infowars.com), Global Information Network (www.mygin.ws/a), Taoist, Abstract Algebraist.

The bottom line is that we are all human and we all have our own unique perspective on ... everything. I personally love to take on the challenge of turning every situation into the most beneficial result. I love to learn where others are coming from, and offer them the option to see life differently. [This is done by finding a point of disagreement and offering a route from the original perspective to the new perspective that the person I'm communicating with can actually follow.]

I am not an LRH clone. I sometimes wear his valence - and sometimes I know I'm doing it.

I am HOPING that you are willing to create a mutually beneficial communication exchange that enriches both of our lives - a communication exchange that facilitates both of us achieving vision through new perspectives - after which we can return to our normal way of seeing things.

I LOVE the TOPIC of this thread and would like to connect with anyone interested in studying Scientology for the purpose of finding value in those aspects of it that can be applied immediately to achieve beneficial results.
 
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Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Well, I was able to make friends with some of the a.r.s. regulars when I was still in CofS...it went ok. I think it depends on the people involved.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
I love the way you counter-poised your closing to my closing!

You're right, there can be a logical short circuit when dealing with Axioms, particularly when people forget that the Axioms ARE JUST ASSUMPTIONS.

LRH DID push them as 'self-evident truths' (definition 1. a self-evident truth that requires no proof) And many people probably didn't know that it was their PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to go and question these, and to decide for themselves whether or not a philosophy built on these Axioms would be likely to work. The reason I say that this is every Scientologists PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is because I really take to heart the "if it's not true for you, then it's not true". In terms of relative importance, I place this principle ahead of everything else.

If you read the Axioms and think, "This is BS!" then it saves you the time of any additional reading anything else. Or, now you can structure your arguments against the basic assumptions. On the other hand, if you put the axioms into the context of definition 3, then they are valuable as the whole rest of the subject really is built from these assumptions.


So in summary:
Axioms ARE ASSUMPTIONS.

I said that this was obviously the definition you went by right from the get-go, didn't I? That was the reason for me to point out the probable logical short-circuit in your statement. Now you're talking about logical short-circuits, and axioms etc, and you still don't address the point I originally made. Come on, do you want to prove the uselessness of your communication tech or what?

The Logical Short Circuit is the Default on the personal responsibility to check these axioms out personally, and to remember that they are definition 3 axioms not definition 1 axioms.

"The Logical Short Circuit is the Default on the personal responsibility to check these axioms out personally"

Hmmm, when there is a logical short circuit, it's already too late, and everything based on that logical short circuit, will blow up right in your face. Since you're still dodging my point, this is what you probably want, so what can I say? Enjoy! :D



I have found that understanding the ideologies and affiliations of an individual is a helpful tool when I want to communicate with him/her.

Well, it wouldn't be wise to talk about how great pork is, when you're discussing your mutual meal with a muslim. :)

Since I am mostly here to communicate with others who would label themselves 'Scientologists' (past or present) - I adopt the language patterns they are most familiar with.

Well, I've picked up some Scientologese since I've 1st heard of it - about 35 years ago, but I'm still a 100% WOG, so I'm not really fluent in that cryptic language.

I am willing to wear certain labels, but I do not see them as limiting or confining - they show the diverse viewpoints through which I am actively viewing life. Here are some of the lenses that I am actively viewing life through: 1-Life-Only Atheist, Physicist, Libertarian, Objectivist, Eckankar (www.eckankar.org), Scientologist, Neo-Tech, Gurdjieff, Ron Paul Republican, Alex Jones/9-11 Truth/David Icke Conspiracy Theorist (infowars.com), Global Information Network (www.mygin.ws/a), Taoist, Abstract Algebraist.

Nice list. I hope you're not trying to impress me. :p

The bottom line is that we are all human and we all have our own unique perspective on ... everything. I personally love to take on the challenge of turning every situation into the most beneficial result. I love to learn where others are coming from, and offer them the option to see life differently. [This is done by finding a point of disagreement and offering a route from the original perspective to the new perspective that the person I'm communicating with can actually follow.]

So far you've brought up a point which I found a possible flaw in, and so far you've successfully managed to weasel around that point. Did I follow so far?

I am not an LRH clone. I sometimes wear his valence - and sometimes I know I'm doing it.

Just out of curiosity - the times you know you're doing it plus a rough estimation of the times you do it unknowingly combined, how much is it combined is it? How many per cent of time are you "wearing his 'valence' " instead of your own?

I am HOPING that you are willing to create a mutually beneficial communication exchange that enriches both of our lives - a communication exchange that facilitates both of us achieving vision through new perspectives - after which we can return to our normal way of seeing things.

I like to check new perspectives against mine every once in a while, but as I've mentioned in a previous post, there is no benefit for me in entering the Hubbardian mindset. I prefer to watch that one from the outside, thank you. If you wanna come out here, then yeah, let's communicate. Jus' leave the Hubbardisms at the door.

I LOVE the TOPIC of this thread and would like to connect with anyone interested in studying Scientology for the purpose of finding value in those aspects of it that can be applied immediately to achieve beneficial results.

Zinj said something about science and Scientology in a reply to you here in this thread. Personally, I think investing one's time, money, resources and whatnot in Scientology, is a waste. I have what I think is more rewarding, fulfilling and benefiting stuff in my life, as many here do have.
 
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yon8008

Patron with Honors
If you point was different from "Axioms ARE ASSUMPTIONS", then I missed it.
Please restate your original point.

(All other aspects of recent dialog now seem to be degrading the potential value of this thread. I apologize for contributing to that, and for now ending it without responding to the points above.)
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
If you point was different from "Axioms ARE ASSUMPTIONS", then I missed it.
Please restate your original point.

(All other aspects of recent dialog now seem to be degrading the potential value of this thread. I apologize for contributing to that, and for now ending it without responding to the points above.)

Sure, my original point is right here, at the end of that post.
 

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Try this:

Resolve this conundrum for me if you will:

"Never give or receive any communication that you do not yourself desire."

Per my reading and interpretation, this precludes there being such a thing as a "with-hold".

(I got a MILLION of 'em!) :yes::lol:

EP
 

Wisened One

Crusader
Anyone who really had OT superpowers would easily be able to demonstrate them rigorously. And then, because this would be so scientifically surprising, they wouldn’t just win the million dollar prize of the James Randi Foundation. They’d win the Nobel prize in physics, get their name up in the lights of world history along with Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, and immediately gain the stature to draw millions of people onto ‘the Bridge’. Anyone who could do that, surely would do that. Nobody has, so we know that nobody can.

:thumbsup: Great points you've made, and :welcome:
 

yon8008

Patron with Honors
So, an assumption which is neither false nor true, but is assumed to be true, now becomes real truth, because some church has allegedly some technology? No wonder you're feeling disappointed by the scientific community.

To start a conversation, establish a point of agreement.

The person doing the starting picks something interesting and possibly insightful - possibly bogus, and calls it "An Axiom". (This is done in mathematics: "let's say you had an algebraic group with a ...") [the validity of the axiom outside of the conversation is not a necessary point to have the hypothetical conversation.]

For the sake of the conversation the Axiom is assumed to be true. Discussion evolves and there is some conclusion. ("So if you start with a .... then we have shown ... and can expect .... ")

So far everything is hypothetical. ("If the sky is purple, then if you are not blind and look up, outside, during a cloudless day, you will see purple.")

The next step is to check that the Assumptions are Valid -> actually met in some real world circumstance.

The 8th ACC was an attempt to assist auditors with doing the checking of the Axioms. To see "Do these axioms represent reality?" ("Is the sky purple?")


Anyone/Everyone is always welcome/encouraged to go back and check these Axioms for themselves. "If it's not true for you then it's not true."

If you want to know whether or not the Axioms are "Valid" (ie, can the conclusion be expected to result), you are encouraged to be audited on the processes developed in the 8th ACC.

Until the Axioms are Substantiated FOR YOU, you should hold all of Scientology that relies upon those axioms in question.

If the logic is valid that goes from Axiom to Conclusion (another discussion), you would still need the Axioms to be valid to expect the Conclusion to result.

Note, you can't go the reverse direction:
Even if all of the conclusions were achieved, it doesn't imply that the Axioms are correct.

-------------------------
I'm disappointed with the Scientific Community because they have not been careful about COMMUNICATING their assumptions - especially to students and grad students. Questioning the Axioms is an attack upon the validity of a subject. It is GENEROUS of a subject to make explicit their Axioms.

The Above use of Axioms does not result in any logical short-circuits.

The potential fallacy would be to assume the Axioms are Valid, because some external authority says they are. The key is to differentiate whether the use of the word Axiom deals with the hypothetical construct (ok to assume anything) or the real world (where Axioms should be checked out to see if they are valid).
 

yon8008

Patron with Honors
When I try to solve a problem (like "how to experience and bring about desirable states of beingness") - my approach is work in two directions: 1) my personal attempts at solving the problem, and 2) learning how others have attempted to solve the problem. IF I find someone else has already solved the problem to my satisfaction, my efforts in 2 will bring that to my attention. If I am able to solve the problem before I find an external solution, I can stop looking. But often times it is the incorporation of multiple bits of partial answers that can be put together in a new way that brings about an entirely new understanding.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
To start a conversation, establish a point of agreement.

I don't mean to be flippant, but we had that already.

The person doing the starting picks something interesting and possibly insightful - possibly bogus, and calls it "An Axiom". (This is done in mathematics: "let's say you had an algebraic group with a ...") [the validity of the axiom outside of the conversation is not a necessary point to have the hypothetical conversation.

Yeah, imagine a world without hypothetical situations... One minor nitpick though: One can have a conversation about one or more hypotheses, but what is a hypothetical conversation? I've only had real ones. :D

Anyway, let's carry on...

For the sake of the conversation the Axiom is assumed to be true. Discussion evolves and there is some conclusion. ("So if you start with a .... then we have shown ... and can expect .... ")

So far everything is hypothetical. ("If the sky is purple, then if you are not blind and look up, outside, during a cloudless day, you will see purple.")

The next step is to check that the Assumptions are Valid -> actually met in some real world circumstance.

The 8th ACC was an attempt to assist auditors with doing the checking of the Axioms. To see "Do these axioms represent reality?" ("Is the sky purple?")


Anyone/Everyone is always welcome/encouraged to go back and check these Axioms for themselves. "If it's not true for you then it's not true."

If you want to know whether or not the Axioms are "Valid" (ie, can the conclusion be expected to result), you are encouraged to be audited on the processes developed in the 8th ACC.

Nice try, but you obviously read my posts very selectively. I'll try again: I am not interested in Hubbardian teachings, because I can have everything, that might be in there for me, in other places - easier, faster, cheaper, and without having to strip the few useful bits from all the rest of Hubbard's teachings. So once again, no auditing for me, thanks.

Until the Axioms are Substantiated FOR YOU, you should hold all of Scientology that relies upon those axioms in question.

If the logic is valid that goes from Axiom to Conclusion (another discussion), you would still need the Axioms to be valid to expect the Conclusion to result.

Note, you can't go the reverse direction:
Even if all of the conclusions were achieved, it doesn't imply that the Axioms are correct.

-------------------------
I'm disappointed with the Scientific Community because they have not been careful about COMMUNICATING their assumptions - especially to students and grad students. Questioning the Axioms is an attack upon the validity of a subject. It is GENEROUS of a subject to make explicit their Axioms.

I don't know much about theoretical physics, I'm more of a practical guy, who's had a lot of different jobs.

E.g. when I designed a certain optical device, it was totally unnecessary to communicate the assumed maximum temperature range this device could reliably work in, because without any further testing or validation, I knew that the temperature range of any environment this device would work in (ie was designed for), would be way beyond the range it could work in.

Of course I could have put this assumption into my documentation, but what for? The docu folder was thick enough already, no use in putting useless stuff in there.

Insert shameless bragging: Although the final product met barely half of my specifications, the device worked flawlessly ever since, and still does a reasonable job.

In other words: It would be useless to communicate the assumption that "it will rain somewhere in England at least once a year", since this is pretty much a given.

The Above use of Axioms does not result in any logical short-circuits.

The potential fallacy would be to assume the Axioms are Valid, because some external authority says they are. The key is to differentiate whether the use of the word Axiom deals with the hypothetical construct (ok to assume anything) or the real world (where Axioms should be checked out to see if they are valid).

The decision whether a certain assumption is valid in the real world or should better be checked, is pretty much a case-by-case decision, as you can see in my example above.

So, to get to my point, which you still haven't addressed (smart move to address only the closing sentence instead of the whole paragraph), since you obviously can't or don't want to address it, I'll leave it at that. You don't have to.

Anyway, a conversation without Hubbardian stuff in it might have been more fruitful, at least to me, but as Mick Jagger said: "You can't always get what you want". :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0jyKabLHVc
 
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Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
It boils down to what you take to be scientology. First and foremost is the subject of scientology. It's laid out as a bunch of principles & techniques which are put forward as having utility for those in pursuit of spiritual insight. ...

Secondly, and in my view much less of interest, is the Church of Scientology. ...

Third, are the informal doctrines & beliefs which many scientologists have come to accept as reflecting truth although not necessarily deriving from either an analysis of the materials of the subject of scientology or the dictates of the church. ...

This is an excellent threefold distinction, and it is going to apply to pretty much any large body of ideas and practice, including religions. The critical issue is the first one: what is the solid core of subject matter in Scientology? I agree that we can discard the dictates of an institution, or the accumulated folklore of believers, without necessarily condemning the subject in itself. The question is whether the subject itself is more than a handful of good gimmicks, which could be salvaged without amounting to a major subject. Is there really a baby in the bathwater, or just a rubber ducky?

I have not invested anything like 500 hours of study in Scientology, nor am I prepared to do so. I don't accept that I would have to do this, in order to gain some appreciation of what the solid subject of Scientology is. It's brainwashing that necessarily takes huge amounts of time, to slowly bend the mind away from even thinking of certain questions; understanding does not have to take so long. Understanding is a matter of degree, and while total comprehension of a big subject might take many decades, one can reach a decent level of understanding in a lot less than 500 hours, if there is really something there to understand.

And here is where I am sure there is something quite wrong with Scientology, though it could possibly be just the Church's machinations or the folkloric accretions burying the real substance. I may not have hit 500 hours, but I have already invested enough time in investigating Scientology that by now I would expect, based on my experience learning about other subjects, to have gained some clear appreciation of what it's really and concretely about. And all I have been able to gather so far is a tub of dirty bathwater, with perhaps a couple of real but limited tricks that don't nearly amount to a baby.

I've been studying physics for around 25 years, and in no way can I convey all of that expertise to anyone in a message board post. But because I've spent those 25 years, and because physics is a solid subject, I can write few-paragraph answers to basic questions that convey clear, concrete, and substantial meanings. At some point I have to limit the detail level, but I can give a take-away message that amounts to something. It's not easy for me, and I may not achieve it every time, but I can do it regularly.

Solid subjects are like that. I've learned to acknowledge that tons of subjects other than physics are also solid in this way. There may be some fluff and crap in any field, but in a lot of subjects I have eventually run into the people who can deliver the real goods, in the form of clear, concise, and substantial answers, and convince me that they are doing something genuine.

I have yet to find this in Scientology, and it is approaching the point at which I will conclude, as I have with the superpowers, that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If people could give clear, concrete, and substantial explanations of Scientological ideas or practices, in the several-paragraph range as opposed to either cryptic one-liners or long-winded books, then surely they would. And I'm beginning to think that if they had, I would have seen them by now. And I haven't.

Can anyone here provide the kind of solid few-paragraph explanation I'm looking for, of something of value in Scientology? I'm asking for the sort of thing that, in physics, would take me an hour or so of hard thought; so I can understand if nobody has the time to spare for this. But it would be a worthwhile investment of time, since articulating something one believes is important is always useful, for future re-use, and to solidify one's own understanding.
 

paul.spiritualquest

Patron with Honors
This is an excellent threefold distinction, and it is going to apply to pretty much any large body of ideas and practice, including religions. The critical issue is the first one: what is the solid core of subject matter in Scientology? I agree that we can discard the dictates of an institution, or the accumulated folklore of believers, without necessarily condemning the subject in itself. The question is whether the subject itself is more than a handful of good gimmicks, which could be salvaged without amounting to a major subject. Is there really a baby in the bathwater, or just a rubber ducky?

I have not invested anything like 500 hours of study in Scientology, nor am I prepared to do so. I don't accept that I would have to do this, in order to gain some appreciation of what the solid subject of Scientology is. It's brainwashing that necessarily takes huge amounts of time, to slowly bend the mind away from even thinking of certain questions; understanding does not have to take so long. Understanding is a matter of degree, and while total comprehension of a big subject might take many decades, one can reach a decent level of understanding in a lot less than 500 hours, if there is really something there to understand.

And here is where I am sure there is something quite wrong with Scientology, though it could possibly be just the Church's machinations or the folkloric accretions burying the real substance. I may not have hit 500 hours, but I have already invested enough time in investigating Scientology that by now I would expect, based on my experience learning about other subjects, to have gained some clear appreciation of what it's really and concretely about. And all I have been able to gather so far is a tub of dirty bathwater, with perhaps a couple of real but limited tricks that don't nearly amount to a baby.

I've been studying physics for around 25 years, and in no way can I convey all of that expertise to anyone in a message board post. But because I've spent those 25 years, and because physics is a solid subject, I can write few-paragraph answers to basic questions that convey clear, concrete, and substantial meanings. At some point I have to limit the detail level, but I can give a take-away message that amounts to something. It's not easy for me, and I may not achieve it every time, but I can do it regularly.

Solid subjects are like that. I've learned to acknowledge that tons of subjects other than physics are also solid in this way. There may be some fluff and crap in any field, but in a lot of subjects I have eventually run into the people who can deliver the real goods, in the form of clear, concise, and substantial answers, and convince me that they are doing something genuine.

I have yet to find this in Scientology, and it is approaching the point at which I will conclude, as I have with the superpowers, that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If people could give clear, concrete, and substantial explanations of Scientological ideas or practices, in the several-paragraph range as opposed to either cryptic one-liners or long-winded books, then surely they would. And I'm beginning to think that if they had, I would have seen them by now. And I haven't.

Can anyone here provide the kind of solid few-paragraph explanation I'm looking for, of something of value in Scientology? I'm asking for the sort of thing that, in physics, would take me an hour or so of hard thought; so I can understand if nobody has the time to spare for this. But it would be a worthwhile investment of time, since articulating something one believes is important is always useful, for future re-use, and to solidify one's own understanding.

Ok, here we go. By the way, I also studied Physics up to Quantum Mechanics, and what most interest me, when getting into Scn. was the apparent scientificity behind it. So, I´ll give it a try to what you are asking for.

Scientology is based on axioms, whereby the main axiom states that life is basically a static, meaning no mass, no energy, no space and time, but being able to postulate AND perceive. The remainder axioms are basically a sequence of explanation, on how the physical universe was created by consideration. The main part of the axiomatic construct, which is used later on in auditing, are the four conditions of existence, from which as-isness is the most important one for the process. As stated in the axioms, a condition cannot vanished if not EXACTLY viewed as it is (hence, AS-IS), this is called the EXACT CONSIDERATION, in other words, an exact copy, duplication of a past trauma-experience, must be made, in order for the condition to vanish, including the non-material aspects of it, CONSIDERATION and emotion. This is the core of the axiomatic structure in use in auditing, and part of the Class VIII auditing course.

While in Scientology, it is dealt with spirit, and mind, in Dianetics, (from greek, through the mind - dia-nous) what is dealt with is with how the mind affects the body. It is postulated that all source of psychosomatic illness underlies in the engram, a record of traumatic experience, containing, physical pain or painful emotion. Watching this traumatic experiences, and finding the postulates (negative decissions of the moment, that still affect us unknowingly today) is stated should raise IQ, and bring back one´s goals. A person without engrams is postulated as Clear.

Hope this little resume, was more clear. Is that what you wanted? It is not so, as I was writing it, that I agree fully with it, or even believe now it is true (Before i even believed it had been tested stringently by the founder :duh:). None of this was never scientifically proven, nor passed through any empiric consistent evidence. I believe though, that the part of as-isness is interesting and helpful. Also part of Dianetics might be of help. With the postulate of a Clear state, I have strong doubts.

If this was not what you wanted (I didn´t read the complete thread), just say. These are basically the logical tenets and construct upon which Scientology and Dianetics are built. Wether these are true or hold empirical evidence is a completely different question and open to debate here. :D

Also we shouldn´t forget, that following Kuhn, and other philosopher´s of science, knowledge advances in paradigmatical form, till the anomalies, don´t allow any more the old theory to sustain, and a completely new theory arises, that is then proven against empiric evidence (such as happened with Einstein´s general relativity, that was proven more accurate than Newton´s mechanics on the solar eclipse 1917, or was it 1919?, i don´t remember). We have in Scientology the paradigmatic part, we don´t have the empirical proof AT ALL, such as would be expected from a social science, fallability, and all the other empirical proofs. I´m not talking at all about OT powers or so, but simpler things, like proving relief by the grades, etc... which I believe are helpful techniques.

I could divide the subject basically in 3 parts, as it was originally divided, and one in subparts. Ethics, mostly forgettable, as it is a means of control of the individual mainly to adjust to the group, Admin, also forgettable, as it can be found better and more humane in many business theories, specially advanced ones, and Tech, the therapy part, this I would subdivide basically in two: lower and upper therapy. The most valuable part of the subject is the lower therapy. Not considering the placebo effect, and other factors, as being part of a group, etc... and self-hipnosis, and so on, the therapy has workability, though not 100% as stated, and not in every case and for every person, up to the middle level, which is considered clear, from there on, I consider it is quite arbitrary, if not harmful to spiritual evolution. Constructs to justify unworkability, such as PTS (potential trouble source technology) don´t stand proof, and are just a justification by the founder for plain unworkability.

Another question, is if empirism and spirit really intermingle well or do not. You may find religious scientists, such as Planck, was it? "God doesn´t play dice", and other´s that are convinced materialists. How can you explain such mental dichotomy in some of the best scientific minds? Probably these two subjects belong into a different realm, and HAVE to be measured with DIFFERENT yardsticks.

What is "unique" to Scientology, and probably part of it´s marketing packaging is that it pretends to have unfolded spiritual aspects in a scientifical way. Much of the language is pretended scientific, such as "case", "tech", "factor", etc... though there is not the slightest consistent testing behind it. But looking at many psychologies, we find the same, little consistency in the assumptions and testing. That´s a general illness of the social "sciences", which brings us back to the topic, what is a science and what is not? Something that has been discussed very strongly by many people.
 

ExVet

Patron with Honors
Not blinded with science

The only problem with this is that it wasn't until 1960 that LRH felt comfortable with his training program in DIANETICS so that ANYONE other than himself could audit PCs to the state of MEST CLEAR. And even at that point it wasn't that everyone he trained could do it on every PC - it was finally someone other than LRH did it for ONE PC! If you do a basics book & lecture & Congresses line up, this becomes much more obvious. LRH admits many times that he over-estimated the ability of his 1950's readers of Book One to apply book one as it was given. In my experience, most people grossly underestimate the level of confront needed to audit Dianetics successfully. And as LRH figured later, most people aren't ready to start off on Dianetics anyway. That's why NED now appears after Grade IV on the Classification and Gradation chart.

Also to suggest a "double blind" study is just goofy (it looks like you're using a buzz-word to sound credible but without thinking this one through). The PCs should know whether or not they are getting audited. And how would you possibly keep the auditors from knowing whether or not they were auditing. The only rational study set-up is a "self=control" study where each subject is his or her own control.

Here is how you test it out: Apply Standard Tech with a Class VIII C/S and a well trained auditor, to paying customers (as payment is part of the requirement to ensure results - pcs need to want the results and have some skin in the game) - and audit toward the ability to be gained of the grade being worked on, and then see if the PC is totally satisfied with whether or not s/he has gained the ability stated. Of course, per Standard Tech, you're not done with the grade until the PC's Needle Floats at the examiner upon attestation of the ability for that grade, and there is no specified time frame for Standard Tech to deliver this result (other than, you must run every process to F/N for that grade). There are only two outcomes: 1) it works. 2) it doesn't work fast enough and the pc stops paying. - there is no "well I'll try it for a few hours and see" - such is not a valid test of the Technology.

First of all, your rude crack about double-blind studies does nothing to increase your own credibility. If you think a double-blind study is "goofy" (and I bet you have no idea what it is and have never done one) then there is a problem with your credibility, not mine. And if you re-read what I said, I never suggested "trying it for a few hours." I am suggesting that the book be scientifically tested exactly as written. If that means 500 hours per patient, then so be it.

Hubbard promised eidetic memory and a lack of psychosomatic illness in DMSMH. People are aggressively sold the book on the streets and they reach for these abilities when they read it. The Church offers Golden Age of Tech training courses on how to deliver it. Per the Church, GAT training produces flawless auditors. In your statement above, you are in effect admitting that auditors trained in DMSMH will not produce the results promised in the book and proper scientific study of its efficacy is pointless. Perhaps a disclaimer to that effect should be placed on the cover of DMSMH.

Scientologists should enthusiastically welcome scientific validation of DMSMH. If it holds up to proper peer-reviewed science, then the very foundation for the Bridge will be soundly established for all to see. But if it doesn't stand up, then the whole basis for the Bridge comes down like a house of cards. If Scientologists are so sure it works, then there is no reason to fear the latter, is there?

Until DMSMH is scientifically reviewed and validated, it is just part of a "faith-based" religion where you just "gotta believe" you are going to receive some divine reward in exchange for your continued "faith." So much for the Modern "Science" of Mental Health.
 
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yon8008

Patron with Honors
Double Blind Test requires that both patient and deliverer of therapy to not know whether or not the therapy is "the real therapy" or "a placebo" - both must be "blind", hence "double blind".

This works great with a pill, just make up two pills, some placebo, some the real drug, they look the same. Have the controlling authority number the cups with the pills and have the controlling authority know which is in each cup. But don't tell the nurses that bring each cup to each patient - nurses and patients must assume they are getting the real deal. Then compare the control (placebo) to the test (real) samples.

It works great for pills.

But try to construct a 'control' for testing auditing. This is either people who don't get auditing (they would know it, and so not a double blind test), or they would be told they were getting auditing but getting something else instead (in which case the auditor would know it, and so not a double blind test).
 

yon8008

Patron with Honors
In your statement above, you are in effect admitting that auditors trained in DMSMH will not produce the results promised in the book and proper scientific study of its efficacy is pointless. Perhaps a disclaimer to that effect should be placed on the cover of DMSMH.

I agree completely.

However, Book One is good for these reasons:
1) It shows the thought process that went into developing the subject.
2) Dianetic auditing is a great way to learn the basic mechanics of auditing
3) It does achieve some wonderful releases (though probably not the promised results)
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Dianetics 'persuades' you that you cannot trust your own mind..

If true, that's probably good to know.. If false, it's very much not in your interest to believe.

:unsure:
 

AngeloV

Gold Meritorious Patron
First of all, your rude crack about double-blind studies does nothing to increase your own credibility. If you think a double-blind study is "goofy" (and I bet you have no idea what it is and have never done one) then there is a problem with your credibility, not mine. And if you re-read what I said, I never suggested "trying it for a few hours." I am suggesting that the book be scientifically tested exactly as written. If that means 500 hours per patient, then so be it.

Hubbard promised eidetic memory and a lack of psychosomatic illness in DMSMH. People are aggressively sold the book on the streets and they reach for these abilities when they read it. The Church offers Golden Age of Tech training courses on how to deliver it. Per the Church, GAT training produces flawless auditors. In your statement above, you are in effect admitting that auditors trained in DMSMH will not produce the results promised in the book and proper scientific study of its efficacy is pointless. Perhaps a disclaimer to that effect should be placed on the cover of DMSMH.

Scientologists should enthusiastically welcome scientific validation of DMSMH. If it holds up to proper peer-reviewed science, then the very foundation for the Bridge will be soundly established for all to see. But if it doesn't stand up, then the whole basis for the Bridge comes down like a house of cards. If Scientologists are so sure it works, then there is no reason to fear the latter, is there?

Until DMSMH is scientifically reviewed and validated, it is just part of a "faith-based" religion where you just "gotta believe" you are going to receive some divine reward in exchange for your continued "faith." So much for the Modern "Science" of Mental Health.

Exactly. LRH's use of the word science on the cover is arrogant and a lie. He knew damn well what science is and dianetics is not.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I actually agree with that, Angelo. I do think, however, that arguments against Scn because it doesn't meet scientific criteria are faulty but ONLY because Scn is mainly about spirituality.

Having said that, I will harken back to my statement of agreement/accord with you. By claiming that Dianetics and, to some extent, Scientology was and is scientific, Hubbard certainly let himself and these subjects wide open to such criticism. It's just that, IMO, that criticism would be inapplicable to individual practices of Scn as a spiritual or religious thing on a personal level.
 

AngeloV

Gold Meritorious Patron
I actually agree with that, Angelo. I do think, however, that arguments against Scn because it doesn't meet scientific criteria are faulty but ONLY because Scn is mainly about spirituality.

Having said that, I will harken back to my statement of agreement/accord with you. By claiming that Dianetics and, to some extent, Scientology was and is scientific, Hubbard certainly let himself and these subjects wide open to such criticism. It's just that, IMO, that criticism would be inapplicable to individual practices of Scn as a spiritual or religious thing on a personal level.

My emphasis in bold and I agree. While I do not subscribe to any dianetic or scio 'tech', if DMSMH were re-labled Dianetics the modern philosophy of mental health, that would be fine. I do think scio is a religion because as you say it is about spirituality, for the most part. It needs a serious reformation, but I'll leave it at that.
 
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