Help for communicating with Scientologists (questions from Anonymous)

Anon72

New Member
Hello everyone,

Some of us Anonymous are doing a project where we directly contact Scientologists over the Facebook and MySpace websites. We have received help from an ex-Scientologist writing an introduction letter.

We have already contacted over 1500 people and more is coming. We also receive lots of replies. Most are negative of course, but many are interested in discussing further. As most of us have never been inside, we could use some help understanding their answers and writing good replies. Most Scientologists lives are not like in the horror stories after all.

Here is a link to our discussion thread about the project:
http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4675
It is already very long, but you can skip ahead to the last page. You can reply here if you don't want to register on our forum. I will relay your comments.

Here are a few replies we have received and could use help answering:
I have seen those sites before and haven't been told not to go there quite the opposite actually. Still being in the preclear levels I have seen a lot of great things from scientology and things like what you are doing is out ethics. Any tech delivered outside the church is completely against everything l Ron built for us to have. You should be ashamed of yourself.

"When you take a course and it doesn't work, they blame you and make you pay for it again. Is that right?" - no, thats wrong.
U have probably never experienced Scientology, or found out what it is first hand. u might have been told (by someone who thinks he knows) what it is. thats a pity.

If u truely want "A world of adventure, love, living on your terms" i suggest u get the facts about Scientology, FROM Scientology (but only if u genuinely what to know the truth).

If u only want to tell me lies about my religion, i'm not interested and u can "back off" as u mentioned above.

xxx, I am very interested in hearing more about what you are talking about. You said that David M. squirred the new books? What do you mean by this? Are you saying that the books were written properly from the begining and then changed so that Scn could make more money off of the new book sales? First coming out in hard copy and then once the people with money's pockets were taped they came out with cheaper soft cover for the less priviledged to afford? Who is Anonymous? What type of group is this? Who is out there using the tech but disinfranchised from the Church? In what areas are they located? I have been doing much research on Scn and there is so much conflicting info out there. What I do know is that the tech works, well atleast the basics, it is stuff that is out there in various other forms and teachings just organized differently. I have not done any auditing to say if it does or does not work but I sure would like to know the truth before I do go spending any more money on just another religious dogma that is a means to control its followers. Please response and send me some links I could refer to.

Believe me, my spirit is wise and strong and it will lead me down the path of love, truth, peace, freedom and justice. I do listen to that small voice that is inside me and for the past year it has only gotten louder.

If you, your email is truly sincere, than please get back intouch with me. Until then...
peace,
xxxxxxx
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I answered the first one on the enturb forum. I'll answer the other two also soon.

Paul

EDIT: Done
 
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Pliny Younger

Patron with Honors
quote said:
"When you take a course and it doesn't work, they blame you and make you pay for it again. Is that right?" - no, thats wrong.
Yeah I can see why you got this answer. The stuff you get on a course always works. Whether it works or not. It is subjective and you are hanging out in a group that just LOVEs this stuff so you will end the course loving it.

There are two sides of the bridge, Training (learning to counsel) and counseling (auditing).You probably got the idea of paying for stuff again from the auditing side from reading the Ex Scn sites. Yeah when stuff goes wrong, you pay again so to speak, but to someone IN SCN that isn't what you are really doing. You see part of the deal you get brainwashed on it is that it all works, period. SCN Bumper sticker: 'SCIENTOLOGY WORKS" So it isn't ok to think it didn't work. In fact, it is you who are at fault when 'it doesn't work' because RON SAYS it works, so it works. You are a hard nut to crack and you need more counseling. These people don't have the luxury of thinking thinks might not actually work.

In my history, you get some big juicy life solving realization from some auditing early in your SCN history and you assume that this little tidbit of intelligent amazing sanity you just had will pale in comparison to the stuff higher on the bridge. Does that make sense? A SCN who hasn't done OT stuff thinks, he KNOWS that the OT stuff is the most amazing stuff in the universe because well they had this little tidbit above and if they extrapolate (is that a word) out from that tidbit, they will equal or surpass GOD in their ability from the OT levels in their minds of course.

It's not true but to this person it is. Plus your statement made their group look bad and that can't be because they have been warned about people like you from SCN ethics.

Once you throw out an unbelievable or unrealistic (to them) comment, you are not easily going to get them back to the point where you were at when they would believe or trust you ( i doubt they were at this point anyway).

SO what has to be achieved is you need someone thinking for themselves, questioning SCN when they see your invitation to whatever you are doing, website or email whatever it is. You have to be one really good logical talker and salesman to get someone who isn't questioning SCN to even be open to critical thought on the subject.

I am having trouble getting my thoughts together on this, plus I'm up against a time frame on other things in life. Maybe someone else can explain it further or better than me.

I love what you are doing and can not express the level of thanks I feel for you and your organization's efforts.
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
"When you take a course and it doesn't work, they blame you and make you pay for it again. Is that right?" - no, thats wrong.
U have probably never experienced Scientology, or found out what it is first hand. u might have been told (by someone who thinks he knows) what it is. thats a pity.

If u truely want "A world of adventure, love, living on your terms" i suggest u get the facts about Scientology, FROM Scientology (but only if u genuinely what to know the truth).

If u only want to tell me lies about my religion, i'm not interested and u can "back off" as u mentioned above.

Most Scn public and lower level staff are nice people who only want to help people. They are often unaware of many of the more unsavory aspects of their church. They may have experienced things like screaming seniors, pressured disconnection, kangaroo court Comm Evs, starving staff, "crush sell" and the like, but put it down as a one time, isolated incident. I know I did.

It takes broad experience within the Church to understand that they weren't one time incidents but just the tip of the iceberg of long standing, repeated, and unchanging destructive behavior.

Many of us "out here" have years of direct experience within CofS, often decade or more on staff or in SO. We have looked for ourselves and found out first hand exactly what CofS is and how it operates. That's why we speak out.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Yeah I can see why you got this answer. The stuff you get on a course always works. Whether it works or not. It is subjective and you are hanging out in a group that just LOVEs this stuff so you will end the course loving it.

I'd say it's even simpler than this. It *always* works, because the instruction to each and every course is to do it *until* it works. If you didn't, then you didn't do it right.

It always works is a tautology, because you must continue (at your own cost) *until it does* :) Naturally, you have a vested interest in *making* it work, if only to finally get it over with and stop the hemorrage, and, once you've 'attested' and written up your win, you have a vested (if less directly extortionist) reason to *remember* that it worked. After all, you said it worked.

Zinj

Zinj
 

Anon72

New Member
Thanks a lot for your help! It's very useful for us.

I think many of the younger people in the CofS were born in. How do you think we talk with them? My guess is that they know a lot about about the "church" but may not be so far on the bridge. They probably have family and friends inside, but may see the tech as just something their parents force on them.

In general I understand that we cannot expect a hardcore churchie to blow after just a few emails. If we can plant a seed of doubt that's good enough. If someone is already thinking of leaving, I hope we can provide some helpful information and a final push over the fence.

Again, thank you all! It isn't easy getting into their way of thinking and figuring out how to answer it.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
One of the reasons CofS members say they aren't told where to go (on the internet, etc) is because to do that, CofS would have to tell them the name of the mb, ng or other internet destination that was verboten. CofS won't do that.

I'm a case in point. I was on alt.religion.scientology. Nobody told me in advance not to go there. As far as I was concerned, I had the right to go there, per the creed and a bunch of other stuff plus, hell, I wanted to go there and see WTF was gonig on. Then CofS got mad 'cuz I was there. OSA kept telexing them and phoning them. It was only after I'd been posting that I was told (repeatedly) not to go there.

So in other words, CofS members often find out that something isn't allowed by doing it then getting in trouble after having done it.
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
In general I understand that we cannot expect a hardcore churchie to blow after just a few emails. If we can plant a seed of doubt that's good enough. If someone is already thinking of leaving, I hope we can provide some helpful information and a final push over the fence.

Tell them that you are trying to raise awareness of certain aspects of their church, that you would like them to confront some of the less savory aspects of their church such as neglect of SO kids, pressured abortions, starving staff, lack of medical care or retirement for staffers etc so that responsibility can be taken for them and that so confronting is a higher level of awareness than not knowing or "not-ising" that such things exist.

A statement like that will hit a lot of points that are important to Scnists.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks a lot for your help! It's very useful for us.

I think many of the younger people in the CofS were born in. How do you think we talk with them? My guess is that they know a lot about about the "church" but may not be so far on the bridge. They probably have family and friends inside, but may see the tech as just something their parents force on them.

In general I understand that we cannot expect a hardcore churchie to blow after just a few emails. If we can plant a seed of doubt that's good enough. If someone is already thinking of leaving, I hope we can provide some helpful information and a final push over the fence.

Again, thank you all! It isn't easy getting into their way of thinking and figuring out how to answer it.

Plant a seed of doubt?

Try listening to what they say and accepting that as their version of reality for a start.

Then realize that the horror stories you have read on the internet didnt happen to them.

The people (scientologists) you are able to contact and engage are public church members not the Sea org members who can get assigned to the rpf and sign billion year contracts.

Public members have jobs, watch tv, drink (well at least I do), and would probably be more interested in talking about House, vs Hyphy,vs Industrial, music more than that they are being conned and enslaved.

Sea org members are too busy to have myspace and facebook and too poor to have computers. And the computer terminals in the church offices ARE NOT CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET AT ALL. AT ALL!!!! (YES REALLY NOT AT ALL!!) (imagine....) The church of scientology doesnt even use EMAIL. Not directly, all the messages go to the comm center and is rekeyed into external computers. All the email from an organization comes from one email address and is sorted by subject line.

I think you need to study what you are opposing. Actually go into a church or mission near you and talk to some real scientologists. The worse that will happen is you become one, but probably if you are polite, they will be too. And you will have a better sense of what the bulk of scientology is like, rather than the experiences of Sea Org members.

imho

alex

(please feel free to email me if you want)
 
Hello everyone,

Some of us Anonymous are doing a project where we directly contact Scientologists over the Facebook and MySpace websites. We have received help from an ex-Scientologist writing an introduction letter.

Here are a few replies we have received and could use help answering:


Any tech delivered outside the church is completely against everything l Ron built for us to have. You should be ashamed of yourself.

One way to counter this is to point out that almost all the auditors who Ron actually trained left the Co$ decades ago. Many of them have been continuing to provide tech services in the freezone.

It would help to demonstrate that they have CHOICE by providing some links to major groups (see below).

And also, they could be encouraged to google: freezone scientology


xxx, I am very interested in hearing more about what you are talking about.

You said that David M. squirred the new books? What do you mean by this? Are you saying that the books were written properly from the begining and then changed so that Scn could make more money off of the new book sales?

Your response should be something like the following:

"Yes. LRH wrote, published & oversaw distribution of the books and materials of scientology for over thirty years. The books as originally written were as he created them to be.

He died in '86. Since his death, Miscavige has been responsible for having the books rewritten, ordering the destruction of the original books, and mandating new sales of his new books to all scientologists without regard to actual needs."


Who is out there using the tech but disinfranchised from the Church?

"Mostly old time tech staff & OTs. They are the ones who wouldn't go along with the changes David Miscavige was implementing in the church during Ron's illness and after his death.

They continue to provide the technology of scientology as it was originally developed independently of the church."

In what areas are they located?

"In various locations around the world but especially in Europe, North America, & Australia/New Zealand."


I have been doing much research on Scn and there is so much conflicting info out there. What I do know is that the tech works, well atleast the basics, it is stuff that is out there in various other forms and teachings just organized differently.

"Many people in freezone scientology share your view and continue to practice scientology without the stops & restrictions mandated by church management."


I have not done any auditing to say if it does or does not work but I sure would like to know the truth before I do go spending any more money on just another religious dogma that is a means to control its followers. Please response and send me some links I could refer to.

People could be encouraged to watch the following british tv documentary (50 minutes, independent production staff) available on line at google uk. This is recommended for anon folk also as background (besides it's entertaining). :wink2:

"The Beginner's Guide to L. Ron Hubbard"
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1786568759674213741


The following are links to various freezone groups. Each group is independent of the others except for the two RO's groups who have some sort of mutual relationship.


IFA: http://internationalfreezone.net/
Ron's Org: http://www.ronsorg.com/
Ron's Org UK: http://www.arovast.co.uk/
ICAUSE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icause/

Similarly appropriate links to:

ESMB:http://www.forum.exscn.net/
XSO:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XSO/


Mark A. Baker
 
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