Help getting Sea Orgres OUT! Any advice?

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have some family that has been in the Sea Org only a few years. They are telling me they are getting a vacation very soon and should be coming home to visit.

Any advice on what to say? They know I am not happy with the Organization but think it is my CASE! :whistling:

I would appreciate any advice and also - is it true they will really get to leave for a week or so? I have been hearing that for over a year and they have never come through!
 

Anonycat

Crusader
I have some family that has been in the Sea Org only a few years. They are telling me they are getting a vacation very soon and should be coming home to visit.

Any advice on what to say? They know I am not happy with the Organization but think it is my CASE! :whistling:

I would appreciate any advice and also - is it true they will really get to leave for a week or so? I have been hearing that for over a year and they have never come through!

That's a good question - and I'll throw my two cents in. Every individual is different and may have personal reason(s) for being in. Obviously, you know them well, and do it in a way that honors that. You knew that. :)

First, when you select the time as "right", ask them if it's alright with them to discuss.

Find out what their biggest reasons are. Clearing the planet? Expansion? Getting themselves audited?

I feel I have the knowledge and backing documentation to reason with anyone. Anyone who is open to honestly discuss it, that is.

If you already know why they want to be in the cult, all the better. You can prepare to some degree, especially if they are the kind of person that wants to see documentation.
 

still here

Patron with Honors
This is good news for you IM. (if they do actually come)

In my day we did get leave to visit home, although more recently from what I have read it now seems rare, however...we especially got leave if we had any kind of PTSness, which hd been traced to family.

In those cases we were positively encouraged to go home and "handle it" .

The visit was so we could appear "normal", and "happy" with our lifestyle choice and reassure family that all was well and that they had no reason to fear or check out negative facts about the C of S. (in those days there was no internet of course so it was a few negative press articles and/or books) our relatives may have read whilst worrying about us. (mine had and telephoned me with their concerns - hence my "visit" home).

My family, when I visited, although always very pleasant and supportive did voice their concerns, and the one most important thing they did was to tell me that no matter what, if I EVER wanted out I could always come home, no judgements..but I and my child, would be welcome.

I did not listen, (I thought I knew better of course) but a few years later, I really did want out, and was able to turn up with a baby on the doorstep of my sisters house, having left the SO, a marriage and having totally nothing (no money, no support and no idea!!!) and be unquestioningly welcomed.

I never forgot it, and I never forget their original offer...even before I was ready to take them up on it! I suggest you do the same. Don't be negative, you will just creat resistance...unless they state or hint at dissatisfaction) Don't tell them you know better (you do of course) just tell them you are there - now and always, and will help.

Good luck.
Still
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
My family, when I visited, although always very pleasant and supportive did voice their concerns, and the one most important thing they did was to tell me that no matter what, if I EVER wanted out I could always come home, no judgements..but I and my child, would be welcome.

WOW!!! :wow:

What a wonderful family you have. I would have left the SO years earlier if that had been the case with mine at the time.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
This is good news for you IM. (if they do actually come)

In my day we did get leave to visit home, although more recently from what I have read it now seems rare, however...we especially got leave if we had any kind of PTSness, which hd been traced to family.

In those cases we were positively encouraged to go home and "handle it" .

The visit was so we could appear "normal", and "happy" with our lifestyle choice and reassure family that all was well and that they had no reason to fear or check out negative facts about the C of S. (in those days there was no internet of course so it was a few negative press articles and/or books) our relatives may have read whilst worrying about us. (mine had and telephoned me with their concerns - hence my "visit" home).

My family, when I visited, although always very pleasant and supportive did voice their concerns, and the one most important thing they did was to tell me that no matter what, if I EVER wanted out I could always come home, no judgements..but I and my child, would be welcome.

I did not listen, (I thought I knew better of course) but a few years later, I really did want out, and was able to turn up with a baby on the doorstep of my sisters house, having left the SO, a marriage and having totally nothing (no money, no support and no idea!!!) and be unquestioningly welcomed.

I never forgot it, and I never forget their original offer...even before I was ready to take them up on it! I suggest you do the same. Don't be negative, you will just creat resistance...unless they state or hint at dissatisfaction) Don't tell them you know better (you do of course) just tell them you are there - now and always, and will help.

Good luck.
Still

Some friends of mine, who I consider my family, did the same for me. They said if you want out of that house, you are welcome to stay with us. They even encouraged me to leave a lot sooner than before I was declared an SP. I should have listened.

Just knowing that someone was there for me was enough to make me feel safe to share my story with people.

IM, if you just let them know that, it will stick in their head. Let them know that you will unconditionally love and support them regardless of their choices. Soon they will realize that while you are offering love and support unconditionally, the people they are with are only offering their love and support based on conditions.

That was one of the major life changing experiences of mine and it made my look at my situation in a whole different light.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is good news for you IM. (if they do actually come)

In my day we did get leave to visit home, although more recently from what I have read it now seems rare, however...we especially got leave if we had any kind of PTSness, which hd been traced to family.

In those cases we were positively encouraged to go home and "handle it" .

The visit was so we could appear "normal", and "happy" with our lifestyle choice and reassure family that all was well and that they had no reason to fear or check out negative facts about the C of S. (in those days there was no internet of course so it was a few negative press articles and/or books) our relatives may have read whilst worrying about us. (mine had and telephoned me with their concerns - hence my "visit" home).

My family, when I visited, although always very pleasant and supportive did voice their concerns, and the one most important thing they did was to tell me that no matter what, if I EVER wanted out I could always come home, no judgements..but I and my child, would be welcome.

I did not listen, (I thought I knew better of course) but a few years later, I really did want out, and was able to turn up with a baby on the doorstep of my sisters house, having left the SO, a marriage and having totally nothing (no money, no support and no idea!!!) and be unquestioningly welcomed.

I never forgot it, and I never forget their original offer...even before I was ready to take them up on it! I suggest you do the same. Don't be negative, you will just creat resistance...unless they state or hint at dissatisfaction) Don't tell them you know better (you do of course) just tell them you are there - now and always, and will help.

Good luck.
Still

This is HUGE, IMO. Just that alone gives them the "breathing room" to think and to not feel like they are in a corner or "trapped in a box".

Having taken some annual leaves as long as three weeks during my time in the SO I can pretty well assure you that if they aren't thinking about leaving already they won't be able to "decompress" enough in a week or so to not go back. But, seeds can be planted, seeds of normalcy, compassion and "I've got your back, come what may" that might well grow and flower after they go back to the Truman Show.

Face:)
 

still here

Patron with Honors
WOW!!! :wow:

What a wonderful family you have. I would have left the SO years earlier if that had been the case with mine at the time.

Thank you Gottabrain, yes they were (and are) wonderful.

It affected me very deeply and I am really sorry you did not have the support you needed. It also taught me things about raising my own children. From when they were teenagers, I told them that although I would not always agree with their decisions or life choices, I reserved the right to tell them my views but fully acknowledged their rights to disregard my opinions and make their own decisions.

I also always made it clear and reaffirmed regularly afterwards that no matter what, if anything ever went wrong, they could always tell me and I would not pass judgement or condemn them and that as my children, they were always welcome to come home, ask for support or help and tell me any problems.

It worked and I still have wonderful, close relationships with both. (I have not always felt they made the right decisions of course, but then ....who am I to pass judgement on anyones decisions - just look at the ones I made!)

A good life lesson for me, and I hope for them in the future with their children.

Still.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you Gottabrain, yes they were (and are) wonderful.

It affected me very deeply and I am really sorry you did not have the support you needed. It also taught me things about raising my own children. From when they were teenagers, I told them that although I would not always agree with their decisions or life choices, I reserved the right to tell them my views but fully acknowledged their rights to disregard my opinions and make their own decisions.

I also always made it clear and reaffirmed regularly afterwards that no matter what, if anything ever went wrong, they could always tell me and I would not pass judgement or condemn them and that as my children, they were always welcome to come home, ask for support or help and tell me any problems.

It worked and I still have wonderful, close relationships with both. (I have not always felt they made the right decisions of course, but then ....who am I to pass judgement on anyones decisions - just look at the ones I made!)

A good life lesson for me, and I hope for them in the future with their children.

Still.

:thumbsup::yes::clap:

Good on ya, Still.:coolwink:

Face:)
 

Gib

Crusader
I have some family that has been in the Sea Org only a few years. They are telling me they are getting a vacation very soon and should be coming home to visit.

Any advice on what to say? They know I am not happy with the Organization but think it is my CASE! :whistling:

I would appreciate any advice and also - is it true they will really get to leave for a week or so? I have been hearing that for over a year and they have never come through!

I have friends in the SO that left for a leave or time off not to long ago.

I think the advice to say your family are always welcome if they wish to leave is great advice.

Regarding what I have tried to do. A friend of mine, I tried to tell them that I think DM is an SP. Boy, that didn't work. Shields went up like a brick wall, shields as in Star Trek ship force fields. I couldn't believe it, it truely was oh my god, thought stopping immediately. Boy, I had to back track so quickly and go along with their reasons why DM wasn't. I still can't believe it. There was no 2 way comm about it.

So, I have resorted to trying to implant a virus by asking questions regarding outpoints to at least get the person to see a little outside the scientology thought box.

Such as, I'll tell in members that I retired from clearing the planet, I don't see it happening in my life so I'm not worried about it anymore, if you want to, go for it, I say. If they argue with me, I just say I'm following LRH code of honor. Or with regards money, same thing, don't ever borrow.

Or, I say "where are all the old timers, scn has been around for 60 years now, where are they? I just ask the question like I don't know the answer, I'm truely just asking them. I let them answer and I don't get into it, I pretend.

I've also mentioned to peeps that for me, scn is a science, I really don't like all this new stuff of religion and singing in the IAS videos and events. I don't like the mock up of the orgs, it feels weird to me. I just say I'm a engineer type, a guy who likes cars, I'm not some fluffy sing along dude, not my style. Just planting a seed I try while being careful to not expose myself.

I also think posing comparison of scn with other religoins or cults might get another to look a little more. :confused2:

One day I may have to do the shock effect and I am preparing myself for if and when I have to do it. I also believe if one gets his own stats up and is happy, why that is a good thing, shows them you are not a victim or SP, using their own tech against them.

I've pretty much run scientology out of me so I kind of laugh at it all now and the subject is not serious to me at all, if you will. Even LRH says you have to run scientology out, so I've done it, and I can give him the middle finger with a smile on my face :yes:

PS, if your family do visit, upon their return they may get sec checks, not sure of this. But if true, if you upset them, they may have to reveal what was said between yourself's and this may lead back to you. So you have to be careful what you say.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
What ' still here ' said happened to her seems like the right approach. And the advice about not discussing DM is sage. Less is more. Except in love and kindness. Just being there and listening to them, loving them despite all that might be going on, all this will go a long way and will not be easily forgotten.

I wish you the best.
 
i agree with gonuclear about spoiling your family members - GREAT idea! terrific food and a fun car.

i can't count myself an expert just because i was in scientology 42 years, but i can say that ANY dissent, no matter how "subtle," comes across just as that, dissent. a red flag goes up each and every time.

i remember the thought of "Oh, he's disaffected or has overts" so many times over the years. it was automatic, judgmental and inhuman to some extent. it's categorizing someone as opposed to really communicating. as a scio, you're not interested in any of it (the dissent) and can barely get away fast enough or change the topic quickly enough. really. you remember how it was. he's now sorted as a needs-to-be-handled guy and not your buddy right now. he's removed from you. with us or against us. it's a damn war cry.

my advice: follow gonuclear's wise words and forget any "seeds" for now. also i love the statement about "i will be here for you always; you're welcome here, no matter what." using your natural compassion and offer of help are so much more effective, i think. after all, SO members are constantly judged and made wrong.

so yeah, have a great time with your family and have no hidden agenda, like we used to have as scios (of always wanting to get the person INTO scientology). let's not reverse everything. it seems to be too scio-like, after all, trying to get them OUT. very tricky. why not just do what you would love in the same situation? you will all have a fantastic time!

i hope you do see them.

-42
 
How bout asking them what they'd like to do? A movie? Nice dinner at a good restaurant? A hike up a local mountain? Trip to the beach, mountains? Give them some "havingness" and let them bring up Scientology if they want to.

I think it is almost 100% they will be debriefed on you in detail, and if you have any anti sci books out on display, it won't help you make a good impression with them (ortheir debriefers). Personally, I'd hide the stuff, can the natter, make sure there is a password on your computer, and be ready to handle attempts to salvage you.

I know that sort of advice sucks, is hypocritical, yadda yadda. But if your long term goal is to help them rejoin reality, it's worth it, IMO

There is a wonderful article on "Ask the Scientologist" about how to talk to Scientologists which is worth a read.

http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com/2011/06/how-to-talk-to-scientologist.html

Good luck,

Mimsey
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
^^^This. And just to be sure, dump the history, cache, cookies, and everything on your browser. No ESMB logins, no passwords, nothing that can connect you to ESMB, Tony's blog, Martyland, anything.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
How bout asking them what they'd like to do? A movie? Nice dinner at a good restaurant? A hike up a local mountain? Trip to the beach, mountains? Give them some "havingness" and let them bring up Scientology if they want to.

I think it is almost 100% they will be debriefed on you in detail, and if you have any anti sci books out on display, it won't help you make a good impression with them (ortheir debriefers). Personally, I'd hide the stuff, can the natter, make sure there is a password on your computer, and be ready to handle attempts to salvage you.

I know that sort of advice sucks, is hypocritical, yadda yadda. But if your long term goal is to help them rejoin reality, it's worth it, IMO

There is a wonderful article on "Ask the Scientologist" about how to talk to Scientologists which is worth a read.

http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com/2011/06/how-to-talk-to-scientologist.html

Good luck,

Mimsey

Not mentioning a concern seems disingenuous and lacks urgency and disclosure, if not honesty. I love the idea of giving them freedom to choose what would be special to them. They don't get freedom where they live. Love them and show how much you care, too.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Not mentioning a concern seems disingenuous and lacks urgency and disclosure, if not honesty. I love the idea of giving them freedom to choose what would be special to them. They don't get freedom where they live. Love them and show how much you care, too.

Well, you can save the discussion of concern for the end of the visit. You can also slip a letter telling them how you really feel in their stuff before they go. That way they'll read it AFTER you've had a chance to win them over for a week or so.

Derek, what will / won't get searched when they return? I would even go so far as to suggest getting a prepaid visa gift card (for use to blow) and telling them to buy themselves something nice with it, and then helping them pack it so that it won't be discovered.
 
I'm not so sure about the gift card. If they get debriefed, it will come up and it will likely be sent back to you with an accopanying disconnect letter. I mean they (the debriefers) are going to ask and probe. Swinish suspicion and all that. They have lots of practice pulling stuff. If they don't look clean = sec checks. I wouldn't do anything that is going to get them in trouble. Meals on the town etc. is fine, but giving them secret cash? Letters they can read later? Dicey. You really don't want them getting any flack. You want to make it safe for a possible next time. And the way to do that is to not get them in trouble when they get back.

Mimsey
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
If they are coming home for a week, I would let them sleep for the first 4 or 6 days. Then ask them if they would like to stay for another week and catch up on their rest.

On the other hand you could welcome them home with a routing form, including the sec check and exact same schedule that they normally have. With one small exception, give them a "get out of jail card" free.

Seriously, if LRH took time off to write Battlefield Earth and the Mission Earth decology, surely it is OK for them to WOG around for sometime.

If they ask you about what your plans are to get back on the bridge, just ask them if there are still any outpoints left in the orgs and let them answer. They might not, until they get back on post and see thousands of those outpoints cropping up again.

Be sure to give them a good time and end it with "how the hell did you manage to get some lib time?", as you heard that the time to get the planet cleared is NOW and there is NO time to waste.

When they leave give them a key to the house and tell them to come on home anytime.
Then change the locks.:omg:

Ahhhh, just have fun, the cult is dying anyhow
 

Anonycat

Crusader
I'm not so sure about the gift card. If they get debriefed, it will come up and it will likely be sent back to you with an accopanying disconnect letter. I mean they (the debriefers) are going to ask and probe. Swinish suspicion and all that. They have lots of practice pulling stuff. If they don't look clean = sec checks. I wouldn't do anything that is going to get them in trouble. Meals on the town etc. is fine, but giving them secret cash? Letters they can read later? Dicey. You really don't want them getting any flack. You want to make it safe for a possible next time. And the way to do that is to not get them in trouble when they get back.

Mimsey

Don't people in prison get to have gift cards?
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Don't people in prison get to have gift cards?

Actually, maybe a Walmart gift certificate would be better. The cult could charge a Visa gift card and take their cash.

Maybe the letter is a bit much, but wouldn't a Walmart gift car be an innocent nice gesture? It doesn't seem like it would have any particular subversive significance.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
Actually, maybe a Walmart gift certificate would be better. The cult could charge a Visa gift card and take their cash.

Maybe the letter is a bit much, but wouldn't a Walmart gift car be an innocent nice gesture? It doesn't seem like it would have any particular subversive significance.

I'd slap anyone who tried to take my gift card from my family. Same with any gift. I'd just turn to the SO and say: I don't think we can be together anymore. I'm leaving now.
 
Top