Help wanted on how to best convey a particular message

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
State that "evidence of the CULTIC nature of the Third Reich was suppressed BY THE PROSECUTORS at Nuremburg in order to prevent the perpetrators from escaping the hangman's noose by means of pleas of insanity." from Dusty Sklar's book "God's and Beasts"
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
Those traits are not confined to just the scientology "group". Many "groups"
through the ages have exhibited the same, or worse.

So I would say that rather than shotgunning multiple thought points, it may be better to focus on one or two, give them a purpose they can sell back to their constituents as having been "a good thing":

1. Where can victims of religious abuse get justice?

2. Should tax exemption be extended to groups clearly violating laws and human rights?

3. Investigating criminal complaints against "religions" is an area that needs some social structure, for all parties involved....

These are just off the cuff....open to refinement/suggestions.

Points one and two are most excellent. And you are absolutely correct when you say to focus on one or two points. The reason that our Fair Class Action lawsuit failed was because too many bloody complaints were filed. Had we been experienced enough, we would have been successful had we stuck to one or two complaints that were easily understood and easily documented.
Carmel, learn from our earlier mistakes and keep it simple.

Challenge
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
The situation we have right now, is that sometimes we only get a few minutes or the chance for only a couple of sentences, to convey *why* we need an Inquiry - Why won't Scientologists go to outside authorities? How does the Church get away with the continual abuse of its members and staff? Why will Scientologists commit perjury? What is the mindset that permits the continual abuse?


Ohhh, I didn't realize that this is a few minutes or couple lines. That is quite different.

My first take on that would be:

1. GREATEST GOOD DOCTRINE: And the policies that encourage, incite, coerce or require criminal acts by Scientologists. It's not just a "belief" system because it instructs and expects its members to do ANYTHING necessary to protect Hubbard, Miscavige and Scientology. A few compelling narrative examples would be easy to tell the story of and would be riveting. It might be good to allude to the fact that there are HUNDREDS of persons ready, willing and able to testify as to the human rights atrocities and crimes that are regularly committed by Scientologists, organized Scientology front groups and the Church of Scientology.

2. SCIENTOLOGISTS ARE TRAINED TO LIE: Cite some compelling examples of how spokepersons and Scientologists will lie (must lie) to protect Scientology at all costs. TR-L, shore stories, acceptable truths, etc. And to prevent the truth from coming out about Scientology's human rights violations and criminal activities, even Scientologists will even attempt to de-rail the a fact finding inquiry itself thru a carefully orchestrated campaign of lies. What does Scientology have to fear from a fact-finding body? The answer for any honest organization should be "nothing" so I would suggest that anyone who believes in the truth should now stand up and make their voice heard and not allow Scientology to play loose and fast with peoples' lives, their mental, physical and financial health simply by spinning lies upon lies which they are drilled to deliver without blinking or flinching.

3. SCIENTOLOGISTS ARE TRAINED TO "ATTACK" ANY INVESTIGATION OF THEIR CRIMES. (citing policies) Presented well, a listener might well take sides against the "bully".

In such a limited presentation, I think that 3 simple points delivered in "shotgun" fashion would have the greatest impact.

Nothing conclusive can be done in that short space, but one might well be able to create in the listener the curiosity and determination to force Scientology to show it's unclean hands. It's something of a freak-show, but some of the votes to support an Inquiry might not be borne out of any sense of Justice but out of a morbid curiosity to watch the cult use its tricks and try to get away with it. That's just fine, whatever gets a vote is good at this point....

I think that "the greatest good" will not communicate to a one who has never been in scn. It's sorta like "Way to happiness". No one will think badly of the concept.
Point # 3 that you make looks like it is workable. Be sure to have their own publications to back up your charges. In the past, both here and elsewhere, it has been their own Issues that have bloodied them

Challenge
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I think that "the greatest good" will not communicate to a one who has never been in scn. It's sorta like "Way to happiness". No one will think badly of the concept.
Point # 3 that you make looks like it is workable. Be sure to have their own publications to back up your charges. In the past, both here and elsewhere, it has been their own Issues that have bloodied them
Challenge


I completely agree that the "GREATEST GOOD" doctrine will not communicate by itself.

It needs to be exposed as an "acceptable truth" and PR coverup for crimes, Fair Game, Felonious Ops, etc.

The Greatest Good spin needs to be turned on it's head and used against the Church by blowing the whistle on the Church putting a decent and reasonable-sounding "front" on abusive practice.
 

Once bitten

Patron Meritorious
The report referring to why the cofs was refused charitable status in the UK is very interesting to read, and has some very important information in it which could be helpful. The people who undertook this two-year-long investigation into the cofs in the UK were all non-scientologists and made their decision on what they had been shown; that is the illegal and irrational behaviour of the cofs in following hubbard's teachings to the letter, even if it meant breaking up families and hurting people who criticised it.

Australia is still a member of the Commonwealth and their government system is based on that of the UK, so much of what is written in this document applies to Australia, just as it applies to New Zealand.

Hopefully this will help, Carmel

http://rags.freeshell.org/infocult/Charitycommissionscientology.pdf
 
Last edited:

Ned Kelly

Patron
Our next shot at getting the Inquiry over the line is coming up very shortly, and a few of us are again approaching MP's and the like. As I've said in other threads, the issue is not now about whether or not the crimes and abuses at the hands of the CofS need addressing, it's about *how* they should be or can be addressed.

There is a particular message (relevant to the above) that I'd like to get across to the powers that be, but that message involves concepts which outsiders or 'never scios' would/do find hard to grasp.

This is what it is:

* If there's a crime by a member of the CofS or some neglect by the CofS itself, the Church will subvert and/or obstruct justice to protect its own public image, and by doing so it protects criminals.

* There is a mindset that the Church must be protected at all cost. This includes protection from any ill repute, and is the reason that Scientologists will commit perjury (the lesser evil, in their minds).

* Nothing is sacred when it comes to the image and survival of the Church. Human rights of individual scientologists are forfeited and denied in the name of the "cause".

* To Scientologists, the authority within the church is considered superior to any outside authority which they consider amatuer and incompetant. Any knowledge of an abuse or crime, or any seeking of justice, must be reported or done "in-house" only. Scientologists don't trust outside authorities and aren't permitted to use them on matters involving the Church or its members.

* The Church is expert at pre-empting legal scrutiny and presents an acceptable image which gives the illusion that they operate within the law.

* This is why we need an Inquiry into the Church of Scientology:
An Inquiry will create a safe platform and help give courage to the many victims and witnesses who would otherwise be afraid to speak. It's only the testimonies of many which will shed light on how the Church avoids detection by law enforcement and how it manages to operate above the law.


So, while most of you will understand what I am saying here, what do you think would be the best way to communicate this to those who have had no involvement with Scientology?

Whether it's a point I've made, or the whole message/concept, how do *you* think that it could best be communicated, to those who haven't been in the loop?

Hi Carmel,

As far as I understand the situation from what Rudd has said is that any criminal activity of the Church is a matter for the police. Therefore the issue is really one of why the police are not able to act on the information provided to arrest those involved in criminal behaviour.

I do not think going down the line of educating ministers on the principles of Scientology scripture and how they form the basis of any and all abuse is the way to go. It is highly complex and very very difficult to prove. The Church will get their say and will use the same policies to show how for example applying the greatest good has been used by Scientologists to provide help to the greater community i.e. volunteer ministers etc.

The government does not want to embroiled in the oversight and management of any particular religious group. They are there to enact laws for the benefit of the country. The problem is that the laws that are in place are inadequate or being obstructed and it is the responsibility of government to ensure that the laws that are in place are robust enough that the Criminal Justice System can do it's job to enforce those laws. If the Criminal Justice System cannot enforce the laws effectively, then the legislature needs to be reviewed and amended, or new laws put in place so that they can be enforced.

One needs to have some very specific acts that are clearly documented and irrefutable. Then I would be running the line of why the police have not been able to do anything? Why is the justice system breaking down and letting said criminals get away with their behaviour? How is the Church obstructing the police and justice system in this regard?

I think that using this tact directly puts the whole responsibility back in the realm of government. Rudd cannot then just say that it is a police matter. It also puts pressure on the police to take action and to provide evidence to the government of what they have done and why nothing has come of it – can't be just brushed under the carpet.

How can having an enquiry into the CoS in Australia be seen as a positive thing for the Ministers that are going to have to come on board to get this to happen?

Well it is one thing for the Church to commit crimes against the general public, and quite another to undermine the State. By positioning your message that an enquiry is the only means available to the Government to get to the bottom of how the Church of Scientology is undermining the Australian Criminal and Justice System. Once this is known then the Government can do it's job to enact legislation or changes to the law to ensure that it does not continue and can take action to prosecute should those laws or changes to laws be retroactive.

This clearly makes this non-religious and therefore should not tread on the toes of any politicians that rely on other religious groups for their support. It also positions the message with Rudd and not against him and I think would make it easier for him and other ministers to “save face” .

Anyway, that is my take on this.:whistling:
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yes!

I don't see any reason not to say it just the way you did.

I was blown away by Hana Whitfield's explanation of the "Scientology Culture" in a way that someone outside of Scn could understand. Maybe playing this video wll help explain the mindset.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd00GtwXcYQ

Hana did a real good job here - my wife attended this symposium and before she heard Hanas speech she never could fully understand how somebody could be so stupid an get into Hubbards fraudulent trap - after her speech she understood it much better.

The second part of this video in my opinion is even better where she is talking about Hubbards crazy abuses of crew members and children.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ACBA6068C7911142&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=SmF9Tpqqw_U



Love
Markus
 
Last edited:

Feral

Rogue male
I've only gotten to the end of P 1. so far but wanted to say HH's explanation was excellent.

To further condense part of it I would like to add that you might point out that there are two Scientologies. This could be how you can show the church's efforts to mislead the investigators and DA attempts to expose them when they pull out contrary references.

Obviously the first Scientology is the one that is presented when they need religious recognition or defense, but it's the second Scientology that we all had to live with.

This could be easily supported by some of the contradictory refs
 
I don't see any reason not to say it just the way you did.

I was blown away by Hana Whitfield's explanation of the "Scientology Culture" in a way that someone outside of Scn could understand. Maybe playing this video wll help explain the mindset.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd00GtwXcYQ


Great video happygirl. The lady in it is a surprisingly good speaker. You'd think she did public speaking professionally.

The only thing is that this same lady did another interview a long time ago where she claimed the 4 year old boy was left in there for 2 days & 2 nights... here she's changed it to 5 for some reason.

Also she seems to have the impression that the PR girl LRH was having a little affair with didn't want or accept those advances...yet she very much wanted them according to an interview the PR lady did on Youtube. She has to get her facts straight- no need to give Scientology any more excuses.
 
The "core concepts".....What are they exactly, and how do we define them?

C, how about writing a simple statement (one page or less) to the effect that scientologists are judged by the church based on whether they are "creating problems" for senior leaders of the church, or other scientologists. These problems extend to seeking legal recourse, protection, or performance of valid contracts, by established legal authorities independently of the church authority, and to raising valid issues of social policy which place the church leadership in an awkward or unflattering light. Itemize items of particular importance and footnote.

In support of such a statement attach copies of standard sec check questions, ethics materials, & policy letters with the relevant passages highlighted in bright colors for ease of spotting ("fair use" is our friend :coolwink:). Also helpful would be copies of specific pages of existing documents & testimonials from ex's where instances of such behavior occurred and they were pressured to acquiesce to church authorities contrary to either the law or public interest. Highlight again the specific claims made which support the appropriate items in the one page statement.

All of the specifically highlighted items & instances can then be footnoted at appropriate points on the one page statement for ease of reference by the official.

Final Product: One page statement of abusive pattern of behavior with specific footnoted references to particular instances including attachments of excerpted documents where the specific footnotes can be readily found.

You can use the one page as a handout for explaining the problem. Attachments are provided for clarification & citation of specific examples.


Mark A. Baker
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Hi Carmel,

As far as I understand the situation from what Rudd has said is that any criminal activity of the Church is a matter for the police. Therefore the issue is really one of why the police are not able to act on the information provided to arrest those involved in criminal behaviour.

I do not think going down the line of educating ministers on the principles of Scientology scripture and how they form the basis of any and all abuse is the way to go. It is highly complex and very very difficult to prove. The Church will get their say and will use the same policies to show how for example applying the greatest good has been used by Scientologists to provide help to the greater community i.e. volunteer ministers etc.

The government does not want to embroiled in the oversight and management of any particular religious group. They are there to enact laws for the benefit of the country. The problem is that the laws that are in place are inadequate or being obstructed and it is the responsibility of government to ensure that the laws that are in place are robust enough that the Criminal Justice System can do it's job to enforce those laws. If the Criminal Justice System cannot enforce the laws effectively, then the legislature needs to be reviewed and amended, or new laws put in place so that they can be enforced.

One needs to have some very specific acts that are clearly documented and irrefutable. Then I would be running the line of why the police have not been able to do anything? Why is the justice system breaking down and letting said criminals get away with their behaviour? How is the Church obstructing the police and justice system in this regard?

I think that using this tact directly puts the whole responsibility back in the realm of government. Rudd cannot then just say that it is a police matter. It also puts pressure on the police to take action and to provide evidence to the government of what they have done and why nothing has come of it – can't be just brushed under the carpet.

How can having an enquiry into the CoS in Australia be seen as a positive thing for the Ministers that are going to have to come on board to get this to happen?

Well it is one thing for the Church to commit crimes against the general public, and quite another to undermine the State. By positioning your message that an enquiry is the only means available to the Government to get to the bottom of how the Church of Scientology is undermining the Australian Criminal and Justice System. Once this is known then the Government can do it's job to enact legislation or changes to the law to ensure that it does not continue and can take action to prosecute should those laws or changes to laws be retroactive.

This clearly makes this non-religious and therefore should not tread on the toes of any politicians that rely on other religious groups for their support. It also positions the message with Rudd and not against him and I think would make it easier for him and other ministers to “save face” .

Anyway, that is my take on this.:whistling:
^^^THIS^^^^
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
it is hard to summarize it sometimes, I agree with some parts of much that has been written here.

Something along the lines of:

"Scientology and Scientologists will do whatever it may take to protect and forward Scientology. They will lie, infiltrate governments and commit crimes because the only important thing in their eyes is the success of Scientology. Such fanatical cults, unsupervised and left alone have killed and abused their own members and destroyed families."
 

Div6

Crusader
All of the concepts that are being described are true, but they require explanation to be understood. There is a concept that lawmakers already understand and it is political dynamite for them to be found supporting it.

You need to communicate that Scientology is no longer a church - It is now an international cult.

The Church of Scientology has EVERY characteristic listed on cult checklists.

Read my summary at http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com/?p=489

Forget explaining fair game Forget disconnection. forget child abuse and the RPF abuse. Every cult does this and more.

Get this idea across or you will fail: The Church of Scientology is a cult

Compare this list of cult behaviors and secrecies to Scn behavior and it shows that the government is supporting a cult through tax exemptions.

  • The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
  • ‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
  • ‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
  • ‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
  • ‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
  • ‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
  • ‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
  • ‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
  • ‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
  • ‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
  • ‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
  • ‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.
  • ‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
  • ‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
  • ‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

Even politicians know that if it looks like a cult, behaves like a cult and sounds like a cult, it is possible that it is a cult. Giving special privileges to a cult can be political suicide. We don't want these politicians to commit suicide on our watch, do we? :omg:

David St Lawrence
Old Auditor

If you landed here from a link I sent you, use the following link to see the rest of the thread: http://tinyurl.com/2wuwkby

I would agree with that button with one small modification:

Scientology is exhibiting all of the behaviour of a DESTRUCTIVE Cult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_cult



Thus a higher differentiation is made.
 

Carmel

Crusader
Crikey, so much good input on this thread, thanks to all! :)

There's been so much going on in my head over all this, that sometimes it's been hard to see the wood for the trees, and I've been banging my head against a brick wall. Your posts here on this thread have helped me step back and look at it, without all the insignificant complexities. :eyeroll: I think there's a lot of good stuff here, that all of us can use if and when conveying what Scn and the CofS is, and why it needs reprimand by society at large.

Yep, people understand what cults are and how insane cultist behaviour is - That's definately something to include.

Mick, I love the way ya bring it all together with this bullet like statement:
"Scientology and Scientologists will do whatever it may take to protect and forward Scientology. They will lie, infiltrate governments and commit crimes because the only important thing in their eyes is the success of Scientology. Such fanatical cults, unsupervised and left alone have killed and abused their own members and destroyed families."

All good, folks. Cheers. :)
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
it is hard to summarize it sometimes, I agree with some parts of much that has been written here.

Something along the lines of:

"Scientology and Scientologists will do whatever it may take to protect and forward Scientology. They will lie, infiltrate governments and commit crimes because the only important thing in their eyes is the success of Scientology. Such fanatical cults, unsupervised and left alone have killed and abused their own members and destroyed families."


Brilliant Mick.

Helluva H also hit the nail squarely on the head with the 'mirror image' detail and that is where the truth lies ... as Feral said there are TWO scientologies ... the PR one and the real one that we all had to tolerate.

It is embarrassing but I think true that we are all going to be seen as the most duped people of all time, when the truth finally comes out, so we had better keep our sense of humour intact.

:happydance:


I feel we tend to look at scientology and try to 'explain' too much ... in the end it is simplistic ... Scientology is and always was a business and is there purely to make money and the believers will do anything demanded of them in their misguided state ... right up until they snap out of it and cease lying to themselves.


:whistling:
 
Last edited:

HappyGirl

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Scientology and Scientologists will do whatever it may take to protect and forward Scientology. They will lie, infiltrate governments and commit crimes because the only important thing in their eyes is the success of Scientology. Such fanatical cults, unsupervised and left alone have killed and abused their own members and destroyed families."
I agree. Use this. :thumbsup:
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
The Scientology organization mindset and therefore actions are based upon the concept that Scientology per KSW Scientology will RESCUE ever man, woman and child on this planet and determine their eternity.

This relegates to subservience all moral, and ethical codes and state lawa that don't align with Hubbards words and dictates; could we say Hubbard's LAWS? This means a long term agenda to take over entirely the government. In actual fact the Scientology organization HAS BEEN SKIRTING THE LAWS harming citizens and covering THAT ACTION up.!!! They are currently acting beyond parliamentary governance.


Perhaps, the Senate needs to run a drill. This drill will be set up by the ex's and the government and the country will be run ONLY BY SCIENTOLOGY PRACTICE.
This would include taking all children out of school and putting them in the academy, all senators will be reg'd 5x their income and assets to pay for their gang bang sec checks, rice and bean will be the only menu item for the next month. If their spouses object, the senators and house will have to declare the spouses SUPPRESSIVE and disconnect. Same for their children and and other friends. All the government will be prohibited from any medications. Etc.

Then the Senate might just get the idea that maybe there is something amiss and maybe an inquiry is needed to see that they have let down their citizens and their power to govern HAS BEEN ALREADY TAKEN away by Scientology. Scientology needs to be under intense scrutiny.


This is why an inquiry should take place.
 

Feral

Rogue male
Trouble wrote:

It is embarrassing but I think true that we are all going to be seen as the most duped people of all time, when the truth finally comes out, so we had better keep our sense of humour intact.

I know!. I had to go on national TV and state that we'd spent between $1 and $1.2 mill on the bridge.:duh:

My claim to fame is that I was had royally!
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Trouble wrote:



I know!. I had to go on national TV and state that we'd spent between $1 and $1.2 mill on the bridge.:duh:

My claim to fame is that I was had royally!

Nah ... your claim to fame is that you retained and probably refined your sense of humour despite being royally had ... (and you are, er ... not alone).

:nailbiting:
 
Top