HELPING OTHERS - IS IT OUR CALLING OR IS IT CASE?

lkwdblds

Crusader
Something built into every person on Earth, something everyone has attention on and has an opinion on is HELPING OTHERS. Using current computer slang, it seems to be hard wired into nearly all of us. It seems like at the center of out core, there is a command "HELP OTHERS!"

Hubbard came up with "SURVIVE!" as the one thing which life is doing but this command applies mainly to biological life. If life is separated into biological and spiritual components (some will deny this), the spiritual aspect has no choice but to Survive so the command works in essence only when applied to biological life. The command "HELP OTHERS!" applies both to spiritual and biological life and therefore would seem to be senior to and an undercut of the command, Survive.

THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD - Examining the command, "HELP OTHERS!" and looking at it critically and not just blindly accepting it as part of our hard wiring is my goal for starting this thread. Detachment is the key here. Detach from the concept that it is unquestionably correct to help others. Life can be conceived as existing without that command being a core value in the innermost essence of every spiritual being. Every human life seems to start out without that command present in the infancy phase. babies do not have any urging whatever to help others. In some toddlers, the desire to help others shows up early, in others it does not and some people never cultivate that concept, though they are in a minority.

Helping others, seems to have agreement in society as being noble and exalted. In nearly all religions, it is looked upon as holy and sacred. Often when the meaning of life is sought after, after a long search, the concept of Helping Others is given as the ultimate purpose of life. When one helps others, a very good sense of well being envelopes most people - their case, or in normal terms, their worries and cares seem to move out and away from them and they feel good about themselves. IT IS THIS SENSE OF FEELING GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF THAT CONVINCES MANY THAT HELPING OTHERS IS THE HIGHEST CALLING IN LIFE.

WHERE THE IDEA OF HAVING A GAME COMES IN
I came up with a different way of looking at it. If life had no meaning other than to help others than life is actually rendered meaningless. Helping others would really have very little to no real meaning if there was not something higher to aspire to. Helping just for the sake of helping is insufficient to justify a worthwhile Game. A Game has to lead somewhere and to have a worthwhile goal, otherwise helping others is just like helping someone to run on a treadmill, you are not really doing them a favor that leads anywhere.

TWO EXTREME LOOKS AT "HELPING OTHERS"
At the one extreme, there is the consideration that helping others is noble, exalted, holy and sacred and at the other extreme there are those who say that it is just an implant we have all been given or it is just someone's case in restimulation. I do not know first hand but I have heard that DM believes that being kind to people is a case phenemena and by extrapolation that would mean that he considers Helping Others is just case and is not really being effective. Certainly, Helping Others could just be an implanted item into every being perpetrated by the author or authors of this Universe. You are to just keep everyone on a treadmill and they keep you on it thus ensuring the universe is kept created.

I think there is more to it than just being an implant. Most beings want to help and derive a sense of worth by doing so. We do not need to be implanted to do what we would natuarlly want to do anyway. That is how I see it but then again, that may just be me, sipping the Kool Aid and buying into somebody else's implant and thinking it is really my own natural impulse.

So there it is! Why do most of us have a great impulse to help? Is attaining a full understanding of the help concept possible for beings on Earth and if helping others is not the highest calling in this universe then what other items are there which are higher?

Lakey
 

sparrow

Patron with Honors
"Is attaining a full understanding of the help concept possible for beings on Earth and if helping others is not the highest calling in this universe then what other items are there which are higher?"

Getting laid?

Just kidding.. You're asking pretty heavy questions so good job for that. However there are several unanswered questions within your question like:

What is a "full" understanding of help and how do you know when you have it?

What makes items "high" soas to describe some as "higher" than others?

"In this universe"? Are there other universes I'm overlooking here?


Again, I like the fact you're thinking about profound stuff. I just don't know that there are any specific answers for the vague questions you are throwing out there.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I think it depends a lot on how you were brought up/raised, I also think that not everyone wants to be 'helped' and that is where scientology leaves so much to be desired, as it is based on the assumption that everyone needs help (at a price!) which clearly is not the case and is insulting.

Sometimes, knowing when not to 'help' is a very good thing.

Understanding is (to me) more important and more inclusive.

Having said that, there is no better feeling than knowing you have done something nice for another and to receive can be pleasant too.

:happydance:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
"Is attaining a full understanding of the help concept possible for beings on Earth and if helping others is not the highest calling in this universe then what other items are there which are higher?"

Getting laid?

Just kidding.. You're asking pretty heavy questions so good job for that. However there are several unanswered questions within your question like:

What is a "full" understanding of help and how do you know when you have it?

What makes items "high" soas to describe some as "higher" than others?

"In this universe"? Are there other universes I'm overlooking here?


Again, I like the fact you're thinking about profound stuff. I just don't know that there are any specific answers for the vague questions you are throwing out there.


Sparrow, you have some very good comments here. Getting laid, just the act itself, nah, not a high enough purpose but creating a great union with someone where the two of you nearly co exist as static and then regarding each other's bodies in an aesthetic manner and then engaging in the sexual act, that would be getting up there as a high purpose. You take a look at a guy such as Hugh Heffner, though he copulates regularly with beautiful women and lives a life of pleasure I do not think that many men would really change places with him. There is something a little shallow and phoney about his set up although he seems to be a decent man.

On achieving a full understanding of help, I thought that was the number one reason to live for, to help others. Only recently, something that Roger B. wrote a month or so ago, caused me to take a look at that concept. To tell when you have achieved a full understanding of the concept is very subjective to be certain. I feel that two conditions must exist: first knowing that wanting to help others is within you by choice and is not put there and enforced by another's will. second, you would judge only empirically by how you feel doing various things. Do you feel freer, happier, cleaner, more on purpose when you help someone or when you get laid? You will know by how your feel. If you were doing Scientology and were on a meter, the needle would have to float. Probably on an item of this depth, you would have to experience a persistent Floating Tone Arm.

What makes some items higher than others. You could do that on a meter as well or you could probably sit down with a counselor of some type and sort out different things and rank them. Your indicators would be your guide. It is subjective. For example, I love hearing a good piece of music and it is up near the top of my list, but I know that writing a good piece of music would be higher yet for me. The more exterior to your body you feel as you discussed various topics would help you order your rankings.

Other universes? Yes, of course, if you are not familiar with the term, you have probably never studied any Scientology. This is one area where I think Hubbard had some truth. First of all, there is your own universe and then the universe of others and then the agreed upon Physical Universe. Beyond that, any number of universes can be postulated as existing. If you are more comfortable with just the physical universe, that alone works fine for discussing the topics of this thread.
Lakey
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Good Points

I think it depends a lot on how you were brought up/raised, I also think that not everyone wants to be 'helped' and that is where scientology leaves so much to be desired, as it is based on the assumption that everyone needs help (at a price!) which clearly is not the case and is insulting.

Sometimes, knowing when not to 'help' is a very good thing.

Understanding is (to me) more important and more inclusive.

Having said that, there is no better feeling than knowing you have done something nice for another and to receive can be pleasant too.

:happydance:

I believe this thread of mine transcends Scientology because as far as I know, Hubbard did not take up the topic of Help the way I am doing it. I do not know of him ever considering that it may be an implanted item into a being's psyche. Your comment about knowing when not to 'help' is excellent. I could convolute it and say that some times the best help is to not offer help. I guess this could be called indirect help, you assisted the person by letting them work things out on their own and did not interfere by offering unwanted help.

On Understanding, well that is a different topic than help, they are not necessarily in competition with one another. For example, this thread's purpose is to better understand the subject of Help.

Nice closing remark about the joys of both giving and receiving help!
Lakey
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
This thread of mine transcends Scientology. Hubbard did not take up the topic of Help the way I am doing as far as I know. You comment about knowing when not to 'help' is excellent. I could convolute it and say that some times the best help is to not offer help. I guess this could be called indirect help, you assisted the person by letting them work things out on their own and did not interfere by offering unwanted help.

On Understanding, well that is a different topic than help, they are not necessarily in competition with one another. For example, this thread's purpose is to better understand the subject of Help.

Nice closing remark about the joys of both giving and receiving help!
Lakey

Points well taken and thank-you for your response ... I suppose the word highlighted above is where we may disagree ... I don't believe one is 'letting' another work things out on their own, (I think one is minding ones own business but perhaps making it known that support is there if needed or wanted).

It may seem a small point but I believe it is important, as adding to someones life a feeling of 'being allowed' to work things out is to me, quite abhorrent and condescending and I think most people know when that is occurring.

:p
 

Carmel

Crusader
I think that wanting to help is innate to all of us, to varying degrees.

We are not alone in this world, and even really littlies want to help and don't just stand by if someone they care about is needing help.

Where does that come from? Wouldn't have a clue. Why does the desire to help vary from individual to individual? Wouldn't have a clue either.

I do think though, that it's some survival instinct thing, just as it is for mothers who will do everything to care for and nurture their children, and for bitches that will look after their puppies. The desire we have to help each other, is the same sort of thing IMO - Human nature and nature itself......It's everywhere and it works. :)
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Interesting thread Lakester....

What if the impulse TO SURVIVE and TO HELP are simply lesser tributaries to a greater impulse?

Not suggesting I know what are the universal truths at the core of existence or that they are even knowable to me. But what if Hubbard's "SURVIVE!" thesis was as profoundly flawed as his theories that the engram was at the root of all human aberration, 100% resolvable with 20 hours of the technique in DMSMH?

What if he had it 180 degrees backwards and FUN! was the senior embedded impulse-- and "Survive!" was just one of the countless minor ways that more FUN! could be experienced? Can you imagine being on course at the Org and simply asking this question to a supervisor? :roflmao:

What if the concept of "help" (lovely, noble and romantic as it feels to all of us) is really just ants at a picnic moving crumbs along a long procession of helpers?

Deeply cynical? I don't feel that way. Just curious where we humans fit into the grand scheme of things and after my adventure at Scientology sleep-away camp, I fell upon the notion that nothing was sacred and could be questioned, inspected or taken down off the shelf of holy religious relics; then opened up to see if there really are the bones of dead saints inside.

So as far as the instinct to "help" I would guess that there are equal and balancing quantities of the instinct to "harm" which are just as valuable and heartwarming. Not kidding.

Can I be banned for taking a perfectly theta discussion and dragging it into the dungeons of skepticism? :D
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
snipped from HH

What if he had it 180 degrees backwards and FUN was the senior embedded impulse

Now you're talking!!!

And (funnily enough) ... HELPING.

:happydance:


So as far as the instinct to "help" I would guess that there are equal and balancing quantities of the instinct to "harm" which are just as valuable and heartwarming. Not kidding.

True.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
...matter of fact now that i think about it, FUN! is in fact a more basic impulse than SURVIVE!

Explains why there are alcoholics, bank robbers in prison, drug addicts, bankrupt gamblers and other unfortunately short-sighted FUN! seekers.

The FUN! impulse had more power than the SURVIVE! impulse.

I am ready for my Routing Form to Ethics, sir!
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Now you're talking!!!

And (funnily enough) ... HELPING.

:happydance:

True.

Can I get a HELP-FUN Combo to go?


HOAXOLOGY PRIEST: What are your crimes?

HOAXOLOGIST: Forgive me father for I have sinned. I was depressed yesterday and did not have any FUN!

HOAXOLOGY PRIEST: Okay, say 10 hail whatevers and HELP! yourself to some FUN!

HOAXOLOGIST: (giggling, exits confessional booth)​
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Can I get a HELP-FUN Combo to go?


HOAXOLOGY PRIEST: What are your crimes?

HOAXOLOGIST: Forgive me father for I have sinned. I was depressed yesterday and did not have any FUN!

HOAXOLOGY PRIEST: Okay, say 10 hail whatevers and HELP! yourself to some FUN!

HOAXOLOGIST: (giggling, exits confessional booth)​

I'll have what you're having ...

:p
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
ugh... helping?

OK, story time.
At the end of an aftershow party, we were the last few remaining drunkards and getting ready to leave. Someone, let's call him GuyA, was desperately trying to get his cell phone to work so he could call a taxi. Watching this old man's battle against modern technology was fun, so we all basically did just that for 10 minutes or so.

Then GuyB, who had been watching all this from afar, entered the scene: "Instead of just standing around and smirking, why don't you just HELP this poor old fella?" My reply was: "WHAT? Not letting him have the wonderful experience of having mastered this pesky little device himself? THAT would be cruel." The others around me agreed with that, which GuyB found very inappropriate.
:lol:

Background information: GuyB was just a visitor, not known to any of us, and obviously not "in the loop". GuyA on the other hand, although it wasn't obvious, has had all the help and support he ever needed. 2 of the smirking bystanders (both grown up people in their 40's) were his kids, 2 were fellow bandmembers, and some more people were just his friends and/or neighbors. None of us would have left him there without help, had he needed any. Since I was driving that night, I didn't drink at all, and had already negotiated with him that I would personally take him home if necessary. Things aren't always what they seem to be.

End of story.

@Topic:
I think helping is just part of human nature. From the early days of humanity till now, humans live in some sorts of groups - tribes, villages, nations, however you want to categorize them. Each group has it's specialists for certain tasks, who make it easier for the whole group to survive. Someone who is a great spearmaker doesn't have to be a great hunter, and a great hunter doesn't have to be a great spearmaker. So if these two join forces (help each other), they'll both be better off, and therefore their whole group.

And this is, where Scientology fails, I think. A bunch of standardized "Homo Novis", with their standardized ways of thinking, can never hold up against humanity, not even as an isolated group - and a group, who would categorize someone like e.g. Stephen Hawking as a degraded being, who doesn't deserve help, is not a group I would want to be a member of.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
SCIENO-SCENARIO: Scientologists are the Authorities on Help.

ETHICS OFFICER: So, Ron says the reason you want to blow is that you failed to help.

BLOWING SCN: I don't have any problem with help. That's bullshit.

ETHICS OFFICER: You have to do a special program before we can let you leave to handle your inability to help.

SCN: WTF? I don't need your permission to leave! And where is all this BS information coming from that I have a problem with help.

ETHICS OFFICER: There is a KR in your file that proves it. It says right here (reading it): "...then he was smiling and I told him this was a deadly serious activity and to wipe that gleeful smile off his meat body face. He kept smiling and told me: 'I can't help smiling when I think about leaving Scientology forever and being free!'" You see, right there, you confess that you cannot help! But Scientology can help you handle that!

SCN: (exiting the room) BUH-bye...and please--get some help!​
 

RogerB

Crusader
Hot Button Lakey!

You've tapped into a hot button here Lakey!:)

But as we are already seeing from the early responses, some folks see other virtues of we spiritual Beings as being equally or of (from their perspective) greater import.:)

The bottom line is, help is one of our very basic and important virtues, powers and abilities. The trick to it all is that we can each have a different view as to the relevant importance of each.

Help is obviously important to you; love to some, and knowledge, truth, relationships, cause/creating, duplication and so on across the spectrum to others.

So my recommendation is: don't try to limit oneself, but simply recognize relative importance instead. :yes: For that way you have a chance to maintain and empower more of the whole, true you. :yes:

Rog
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
My view is informed by my Irish Catholic upbringing, my study of scientology, my reading on genetics/selection, and my views about syntropy (the tendency of living systems towards greater levels of coherence/order).

Essentially, energy/matter have a tendency towards dissipation into lower states of organization. Another word for this is that matter has a tendency towards "entropy". Living systems are different, though. They have a tendency towards greater degrees of order, and have capabilities of transcendance, evolution, etc. One of the key components of most life-forms is cooperation. It is selected for, within most species. Together, we stand a greater chance of survival than we do, alone. There are dangers in cooperation, such as betrayal, and there are tradeoffs, such as not being allowed to have it all for yourself, but all-in-all, those that support each other succeed better than those who are "anti-social". This is probably why we are 'hard-wired' for feeling good when we help others.

As to whether or not there is some godlike entity that created this tendency towards coherence and cooperation, I consider that speculative. I do think that we have a hardwired goal to help each other, and also to bask in each other's admiration and attention for doing so. A negative way of looking at it is to call it a tendency to be do-gooder attention-whores. A positive way of looking at it is to say we have high-order goals towards communion: not just with each other, but with a posited "mind of God".
 

Carmel

Crusader
<snip>
So as far as the instinct to "help" I would guess that there are equal and balancing quantities of the instinct to "harm" which are just as valuable and heartwarming. Not kidding.
<snip>
I think that's true for EVERYTHING in life - Ying and yang, or polarities or whatever label ya wanna give to it......For everything that's positive there's also a negative that's sitting there, ready to pounce if ya let it or if ya decide to go there. And for every negative, there's a positive there for the taking. For every instinct there's an opposite instinct it seems........Still, I do reckon that "instincts" are innate to us all and that somehow we have choices in regard to what ta do with them.
 

gerry

Patron with Honors
We are not alone in this world, and even really littlies want to help and don't just stand by if someone they care about is needing help.

Where does that come from? Wouldn't have a clue. Why does the desire to help vary from individual to individual? Wouldn't have a clue either.

We are community animals, enhancing those around us makes us all stronger
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Points well taken and thank-you for your response ... I suppose the word highlighted above is where we may disagree ... I don't believe one is 'letting' another work things out on their own, (I think one is minding ones own business but perhaps making it known that support is there if needed or wanted).

It may seem a small point but I believe it is important, as adding to someones life a feeling of 'being allowed' to work things out is to me, quite abhorrent and condescending and I think most people know when that is occurring.

:p

I get what you are saying and agree with you. This is a very subjective topic and very few things about it are rigidly right or wrong. One slight comment, if you were in a familial relationship, such as being a parent or even a sibling, or if you interacted with a person daily on a deep personal level, such as being room mates, the person might be looking to you for help or expecting help from you. In this case, if you knowingly decided it best not to help them, probably that would not be condescending of you. In all other circumstances, I agree fully with what you said.

The lyrics of a particular soul song by Bill Withers, accompanied with what Roger B. wrote on my Apollo thread about a month ago led me to start this thread. The lyrics, which Withers wrote, do not seem condescending to me at all. In one instance he asks people to swallow their pride and allow him to help, saying that it won't be long before he will need help from them. Withers' lyrics sum up my personal views on the subject of help and do it better than I could do on my own. Withers is just offering help, not enforcing iit This thread is merely to explore if those feelings he expresses are noble and saintly or merely the dramatizations of some sort of implant. Are they hardwired into our cores or just additives???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaVXfHZv50Y

Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
You put it very nicely

I think that wanting to help is innate to all of us, to varying degrees.

We are not alone in this world, and even really littlies want to help and don't just stand by if someone they care about is needing help.

Where does that come from? Wouldn't have a clue. Why does the desire to help vary from individual to individual? Wouldn't have a clue either.

I do think though, that it's some survival instinct thing, just as it is for mothers who will do everything to care for and nurture their children, and for bitches that will look after their puppies. The desire we have to help each other, is the same sort of thing IMO - Human nature and nature itself......It's everywhere and it works. :)

These are my sentiments as well. You put it very nicely! I am just trying to stand back from any personal feelings and look at help with a magnifying glass and see if there could be more to it. I hope not, I love the construct of what you say above and want that to be the truth.
Lakey
 
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