HELPING OTHERS - IS IT OUR CALLING OR IS IT CASE?

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
If helping others is case, then you can take charge off it and in doing so see exactly what it is that is charged.

There are lots of regular Scn help processes. Or invent your own. I find bits of protest on things like someone didn't acknowledge the help I gave them; or I decided that what I thought was helpful in fact wasn't; or I wanted help from someone and they didn't give it.

I don't find charge on things like Jenny wanted help and I gave it to her and we were both happy with the outcome. How could there be?

-----

I remember Hubbard had a big help=betrayal thing, that Van Vogt incorporated into one of his stories. I don't remember how that went, but that might fit into the case thing if (big if) there is any truth to it.

Paul
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Originally posted by lkwdblds

I get what you are saying and agree with you. This is a very subjective topic and very few things about it are rigidly right or wrong. One slight comment, if you were in a familial relationship, such as being a parent or even a sibling, or if you interacted with a person daily on a deep personal level, such as being room mates, the person might be looking to you for help or expecting help from you. In this case, if you knowingly decided it best not to help them, probably that would not be condescending of you. In all other circumstances, I agree fully with what you said.

No, of course that wouldn't necessarily be condescending ... in fact it would possibly be rather mean spirited (of course we are wildly generalising and I understand that) ... but here again my initial feeling is that it IS condescending to 'knowingly decide it best not to help etc' ... it does sound and feel like scientology thinking to me (superior and know best).

I like RogerB's post below.


:)
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Interesting thread Lakester....

What if the impulse TO SURVIVE and TO HELP are simply lesser tributaries to a greater impulse?

Not suggesting I know what are the universal truths at the core of existence or that they are even knowable to me. But what if Hubbard's "SURVIVE!" thesis was as profoundly flawed as his theories that the engram was at the root of all human aberration, 100% resolvable with 20 hours of the technique in DMSMH?

What if he had it 180 degrees backwards and FUN! was the senior embedded impulse-- and "Survive!" was just one of the countless minor ways that more FUN! could be experienced? Can you imagine being on course at the Org and simply asking this question to a supervisor? :roflmao:

What if the concept of "help" (lovely, noble and romantic as it feels to all of us) is really just ants at a picnic moving crumbs along a long procession of helpers?

Deeply cynical? I don't feel that way. Just curious where we humans fit into the grand scheme of things and after my adventure at Scientology sleep-away camp, I fell upon the notion that nothing was sacred and could be questioned, inspected or taken down off the shelf of holy religious relics; then opened up to see if there really are the bones of dead saints inside.

So as far as the instinct to "help" I would guess that there are equal and balancing quantities of the instinct to "harm" which are just as valuable and heartwarming. Not kidding.

Can I be banned for taking a perfectly theta discussion and dragging it into the dungeons of skepticism? :D


EXCELLENT POST HELLUVA

I don't think you are too far off when you suggest the FUN! trumps SURVIVE! or even HELP! I would reword FUN as HAVE FUN! or HAVING FUN! The hated Hubbard had two concepts which I believe were valid. One is the concept that beings are here in the Physical Universe to have and play a GAME. His other concept that I like is the idea of "THE SPIRIT OF PLAY". The spirit of play is very high up on Hubbard's charts. Yvonne Jentzch was often refering to the Spirit of Play as something to shoot for in her org, Celebrity Centre. Rather than being cynical, I think you are stabbing right at the truth. Imagine you are blindfolded trying pin a tail on the donkey and you are right near the asse's ass and the kids are ohing and awing as your pin zeroes in right near the exact spot where it belongs. That is where I see your above comments are leading.

Beings are alive and operating (to greater or lesser degrees) here in the Physical Universe and they are here because they want to have a GAME to play. They want some goals to achieve, some barriers to overcome, some serious opposition to match wits with and some excitement in contemplating victory or in overcoming tough opposition. Even the dread of losing a game can be both exciting and fulfilling if the victor and the loser both play ther roles with class. MOST OF ALL WE BEINGS WANT TO HAVE FUN!! DAMN IT ALL, WE ARE HERE AND SIGNED ON TO THIS MADCAP CIRCUS OF LIFE TO PLAY A GAME AND TO HAVE FUN! This game was supposedly set up with civilized rules, such as the "Marques of Queensbury" rules, whatever they are. Too long now has the game become cut throat and civilized rules have mostly been flushed down the toilet in favor of cut throat, dog eat dog rules.

Help is one of the parameters of the Game. Help leads to outflow and beings seem to do better outflowing away from themselves as a source type of activity rather than inflowing as an effect type activtity. Inflow is definitely required and necessary but too much inflow will damage one's psyche. On the other hand outflowing seems to benefit the psyche, beings can not seem to engage in too much of it. Outflowing to others makes the others want to outflow too. A chain of outflow in the form of helping others can be created to the mutual benefit of all. This is most often seen in start up operations, "you know, the good old days". Be it the frontier days of a country with a large land area such as the USA or Oz or be it in the early days of a brand new company such as Ford Motor or the early days of Apple of Microsoft. Their is a lot of help going on, people are pulling together to create things, expansion is occuring, etc.

Hell no, Helluva, your post is not cynical but right on target. It stuck that tail right on the donkey's ass.
Lakey
 

Div6

Crusader
EXCELLENT POST HELLUVA

I don't think you are too far off when you suggest the FUN! trumps SURVIVE! or even HELP! I would reword FUN as HAVE FUN! or HAVING FUN! The hated Hubbard had two concepts which I believe were valid. One is the concept that beings are here in the Physical Universe to have and play a GAME. His other concept that I like is the idea of "THE SPIRIT OF PLAY". The spirit of play is very high up on Hubbard's charts. Yvonne Jentzch was often refering to the Spirit of Play as something to shoot for in her org, Celebrity Centre. Rather than being cynical, I think you are stabbing right at the truth. Imagine you are blindfolded trying pin a tail on the donkey and you are right near the asse's ass and the kids are ohing and awing as your pin zeroes in right near the exact spot where it belongs. That is where I see your above comments are leading.

Beings are alive and operating (to greater or lesser degrees) here in the Physical Universe and they are here because they want to have a GAME to play. They want some goals to achieve, some barriers to overcome, some serious opposition to match wits with and some excitement in contemplating victory or in overcoming tough opposition. Even the dread of losing a game can be both exciting and fulfilling if the victor and the loser both play ther roles with class. MOST OF ALL WE BEINGS WANT TO HAVE FUN!! DAMN IT ALL, WE ARE HERE AND SIGNED ON TO THIS MADCAP CIRCUS OF LIFE TO PLAY A GAME AND TO HAVE FUN! This game was supposedly set up with civilized rules, such as the "Marques of Queensbury" rules, whatever they are. Too long now has the game become cut throat and civilized rules have mostly been flushed down the toilet in favor of cut throat, dog eat dog rules.

Help is one of the parameters of the Game. Help leads to outflow and beings seem to do better outflowing away from themselves as a source type of activity rather than inflowing as an effect type activtity. Inflow is definitely required and necessary but too much inflow will damage one's psyche. On the other hand outflowing seems to benefit the psyche, beings can not seem to engage in too much of it. Outflowing to others makes the others want to outflow too. A chain of outflow in the form of helping others can be created to the mutual benefit of all. This is most often seen in start up operations, "you know, the good old days". Be it the frontier days of a country with a large land area such as the USA or Oz or be it in the early days of a brand new company such as Ford Motor or the early days of Apple of Microsoft. Their is a lot of help going on, people are pulling together to create things, expansion is occuring, etc.

Hell no, Helluva, your post is not cynical but right on target. It stuck that tail right on the donkey's ass.
Lakey

There is no SENSATION without SIN....;)


The great object of life is sensation -- to feel that we exist, even though in pain. It is this 'craving void' which drives us to gaming -- to battle, to travel -- to intemperate, but keenly felt, pursuits of any description, whose principal attraction is the agitation inseparable from their accomplishment. [Lord Byron, letter, Sept. 6, 1813]
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I am but a simple soul ... I have fun (often) and feel no need to label or analyse it ... and I am off now, for some hedonistic wallying about!

Have fun one and all!

:happydance:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Thanks for the sage advice Rog!

You've tapped into a hot button here Lakey!:)

But as we are already seeing from the early responses, some folks see other virtues of we spiritual Beings as being equally or of (from their perspective) greater import.:)

The bottom line is, help is one of our very basic and important virtues, powers and abilities. The trick to it all is that we can each have a different view as to the relevant importance of each.

Help is obviously important to you; love to some, and knowledge, truth, relationships, cause/creating, duplication and so on across the spectrum to others.

So my recommendation is: don't try to limit oneself, but simply recognize relative importance instead. :yes: For that way you have a chance to maintain and empower more of the whole, true you. :yes:

Rog


Yes, Rog, I was pretty sure this would be a hot button! That song, "Lean on Me" really got me thinking about the topic. I have been putting most of my effort in the Apollo thread lateley. I did post more on the board in general when IMMORTAL and then in particuar Michel in Italy were posting. Michel really put up some groundbreaking threads. He is quite a guy!

I appreciate your well rounded comments concerning the relative importances of major human impulses which vary from person to person. That is a major bit of advice in bringing order and a consensus on this topic.

See, Rog, I took note of those comments you made about the need to help about a month ago on the Apollo thread and they have been incubating in my mind for over a month. Bill Wither"s lyrics in the "Lean on Me" song brought me to the realization that this topic would be a hot button:yes: Wither's song on Youtube has over 1.6 milliion views, part of that is surely the song itself but I felt a lot of it was for the lyrics as well.
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
You seem like a Burger King type of woman.

I am but a simple soul ... I have fun (often) and feel no need to label or analyse it ... and I am off now, for some hedonistic wallying about!

Have fun one and all!

:happydance:

You remind me of the Burger King ad, "Have it your Way!" You have your own construct of life, your own opinions and as for life, you live it your way. This is all good, thanks for particpating in the discussion, all your opinions were sound in my opinion.
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Excellent slant on help

If helping others is case, then you can take charge off it and in doing so see exactly what it is that is charged.

There are lots of regular Scn help processes. Or invent your own. I find bits of protest on things like someone didn't acknowledge the help I gave them; or I decided that what I thought was helpful in fact wasn't; or I wanted help from someone and they didn't give it.

I don't find charge on things like Jenny wanted help and I gave it to her and we were both happy with the outcome. How could there be?

-----

I remember Hubbard had a big help=betrayal thing, that Van Vogt incorporated into one of his stories. I don't remember how that went, but that might fit into the case thing if (big if) there is any truth to it.

Paul

"I agree with the Jenny wanted help and I gave it to her and we were both happy with the outcome" example. This is not going to contain charge. I'll give you four areas concerning help where charge has occurred with me personally and a couple of examples.

#1 Unacknowledged help.
#2 Someone refusing to help me
#3 Being bashed for not helping
#4 Some other authority or agency telling you that you must help and in what manner you must help.

Points #1 and #2 you cover above. Point #3 is like these people in front of the super market asking you for a hand out or asking you to donate to something. When you refuse, they say something like, "Have a nice day!" but they snarl the phrase so that it sounds as if it is meant as cussing you out for not contributing to them.

Point #4 has to do with the way the Sea Org handles the subject of help. Of course, their outlook on it is completely aberrated and leads to enormous amounts of charge being built up. First of all, you are going there already with an enormous desire to help and put in long hours for almost no pay. This pretty much goes unacknowledged. You are not welcomed but instead are looked at as some sort of particle or stat which is a potential resource to increase other stats. You are not consulted as to how you would like to help. You are just assigned somewhere based on a momentary need they have to be filled - this need changes from day to day. They care nothing as to your aptitudes or what you are good at, they deicde where they need you and then demand that you help in that area. If you are not trained for that, they tell you that a Sea Org member has no case and can do any job assigned to him or her. Of course, if you can not do the post they assign you to, you are treated as a criminal and have to do sever penance. Of course this is aberated help. Everyone but Sea Org execs knows it is aberated and wrong.

One other area of aberation there which does not get much coverage is what type of help you give. For instance, when I was on the Apollo and was in the EPF, they were giving an open house on the weekend where they allowed the local people on Board the Apollo to tour the ship. I was assigned as a tour guide. As I took people around I was very cordial and answered all questions. I tried to talk German or Spanish if that language was needed. The event was held when we were docked in Portugal. I knew Spanish just from two years in high school but was pretty up on my German. I was friendly with the public and went out of my way to answer their questions. My Senior called me over and said to stop talking the foreign languages and making small talk with the public, just get then in, run them through the ship, keep muzzled and get as many people through A to B without dallying around trying to be nice to them. It was very hard for me to follow this order but I did my best. Being told to do the tour guide job that way generated a lot of charge for me.
Lakey
 

auntpat

Patron with Honors
HELP is hard to accept.

I have always been a very self sufficiant woman. As I grew older and had physical problems, it was very difficult to admit I needed help. People assumed, because I was in a wheel chair, I was:
1. hard of hearing
2. senile
3. in pain
4. totally helpless.

I was none of these things all the time. I hated it when people stept in and did something for me that I was quite capable of doing.

Then I actually became temporarily unable to do anything for myself. I was lying on the floor even unable to turn over. Thank God, I had my phone in my hand, when I fell out of my chair. I dialed 911 and the ambulance and crew arrived.

Emergency Room and mystery solved. I had pneomonia(sp) and was totaly week. I was in the hospital several days and slowly got my strength back. I appreciated the nurses and their helpers who cared for me. It is humbling to have another wash your "privates" and wipe your butt.

When I came home from the hospital I had a whole new attitude about Help. Even when it is not necessary I appreciate someone helping me. I have learned to be grateful for the little things I can do to show my independence.

I am so glad that I was able and willing to help others, when I was young. I feel like the help I receive now is pay back.

Love,
Pat
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
A couple more new incites on Help

Thanks to Aunt Pat for her interesting post. One point she made caught my eye, that of feeling that a life full of helping others gives you credits, so to speak, or entitles one to be worthy of receiving help later in life.

This logic sort of puts out there the idea of a savings bank for "Help credits". After all, if Mother Teresa, who devoted an entire life to helping the sick, needed some help later in her life, who would possible begrudge her receiving help?

The biggest item I am discussing on this post is the desire to feel needed. This is a very deep human urge, the feeling of being needed. When a person no longer feels needed, usually their will to live ceases and death occurs soon afterwards. Prime examples are men who retire early and are lost and find nothing of interest in retirement, an early death is often a result of this state of affairs. The same for a married couple, married 50 or 60 years. When one dies, the other quickly follows, often in only weeks or a few months The survivor no longer feels there is anyone who needs him or her.

Rather than only altruistic reasons for being compelled to help others, people can and do help others for selfish reasons as well, either building up points in their "help account" so that they feel justiried in receiving help later on or more fundamentally, they help because it makes them feel needed. Going back to "I told you I was Trouble's" posts, she made a lot of good points but seemed to have a real problem if one gave help which was not wanted or even if one chose not to give help and let the person work things out for themselves. She found the first act "condescending" and the second "mean spirited". The condescending view I could relate to but not the mean spirited view. With these new points which I have brought up, I think I have made a case that help can be given mainly for selfish reasons only and in such cases no condescending attitude of act of mean spiritedness is taking place. The one who helps does so only to make himself or herself feel needed or to build up Brownie Points so as to justify themselves being helped in the future.
Lakey
 
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uniquemand

Unbeliever
This is certainly possible, Lakey. I have known many, many psychologists and social workers, though, and I would not say ANY of the ones I met were trying to bank up positive karma. Instead, they were truly dedicated to helping other people, and when they burned out, often retreat to teaching, because they can help indirectly, that way.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
We are wired, perhaps in our DNA to do what is needed to help the species survive. When people have kids many times they would sacrifice their life for the sake of their kids, so that their DNA can move into the future. It's perhaps instinct rather than implant. It's why penguins spend months in the Antarctic without food in freezing winds to rear their young, so that their species carries on. It's why you get out of bed to feed the screaming offspring of your loins instead of throwing it out of the window. The continued life of the species is more important than that of an individual, people will do amazing acts of sacrifice to protect their group, so that their genes can carry on.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Another point on this is that people do seem generally to get less selfish as they get older, not always true I know. Often people get keen on doing good deeds when they realise they are going to die some time. This could be to earn brownie points to use at the pearly gates, or simply realising what an arsehole they've been all their lives, it can also be that they've finally grown up. As kids we are the centre of the universe and as we grow more mature we realise that other people do have needs and feelings too.

As I get older and especially when I am exhausted with chronic fatigue I find it hard to motivate myself to go and pick up some bread from the shop, but if someone needs my help I'll find the strength to go and support them. Actually my memories crap and I often go to the shop for garlic and come out with chicken liver instead, whereas if I do something for someone else I tend to remember. I probably wouldn't get out of bed most days if it wasn't for the voluntary work I do. So I get motivation from helping, and purpose of course, appreciation is nice, though not sought after.

So chaps, analyse that.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Two good posts!

Another point on this is that people do seem generally to get less selfish as they get older, not always true I know. Often people get keen on doing good deeds when they realise they are going to die some time. This could be to earn brownie points to use at the pearly gates, or simply realising what an arsehole they've been all their lives, it can also be that they've finally grown up. As kids we are the centre of the universe and as we grow more mature we realise that other people do have needs and feelings too.

As I get older and especially when I am exhausted with chronic fatigue I find it hard to motivate myself to go and pick up some bread from the shop, but if someone needs my help I'll find the strength to go and support them. Actually my memories crap and I often go to the shop for garlic and come out with chicken liver instead, whereas if I do something for someone else I tend to remember. I probably wouldn't get out of bed most days if it wasn't for the voluntary work I do. So I get motivation from helping, and purpose of course, appreciation is nice, though not sought after.

So chaps, analyse that.

Very nice posts La La! This thread started off with some controversy but pretty much a consensus has been reached. No one feels the desire to help is put there by force as an implant, it seems to be hard wired in. There is a bit of a treadmill effect. If, as you suggest, each generation feels the next generation is more important than they are, this sets up a treadmill effect. If each generation looks at the next as being more important that seems wrong to me. The rational point of view would be that the newer generation is of equal importance to the one each person is a member of not of greater importance.

THE ONLY THING WITH CHARGE ON IT IN THE FIELD OF HELP?
Here is where the Sea Org enters the picture. They demand you help them. Often they won't take no for an answer. They promise you an enormous amount of help. They claim that they can do things to make you more powerful than you ever dreamed possible. That tell you that no help from any other source amounts to a "hill of beans" compared to what they are going to do for you. Once you buy into these untruths, you are used and abused until often there is not much more left of you than an empty shell. You are then thrown out unceremoniously and shunned. This type of failed help is nothing new on planet Earth but I do not think any other organization has carried it to the extreme of the Sea Org.

To be taken for all of your money, your integrity, your entire beingness and to then be shown the door out and shunned to boot is as big of a betrayal as most of us are ever likely to experience and this procedure creates a huge amount of protest and charge on those who have lived through it.

Help may be a natural urge but being promised help and then being destroyed instead, that may be the biggest betrayal in the universe. Lakey
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Thanks Lakey, this is an interesting subject.

Perhaps DM is just a little screwed up. Don't people join the SO out of a desire to help? If the 'help implant' was eradicated what kind of staff would he be recruiting? Cold blooded, power hungry money grabbing lizards, like himself? Is that the EP of Scientology?
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Help, It's Nice But...

People help each other because most of us are social beings. As social beings we might be found on an arbitrary scale of 1 to 10. On that same scale altruism might be at 10 while self-interest to the exclusion of others might be at 1. No one is stuck at any arbitrary number. Someone at a 10 might be at a 1 in specific circumstances. As LaLa noted, someone at a 1 can be motivated to a higher number if the calling impinges on the desire to help.

There can be a time or situation where mere help turns into support. Support is help with commitment, resources, time, effort, energy, ... Any of the help processes can be run as support processes. Whereas resources are generally limited, I give an expenditure of support far greater thought/evaluation before I commit. Help? Sure. I can toss around all kinds of help with limited liability. Support? Well I have to make a real decision on that.

Oh... And as for beings at zero on that arbitrary scale, they aren't anti-social; they are just not social. Tossing a kid in a chain locker is anti-social. Not doing anything about it is not-social.

That's my take on help as a subject.

Edit: One more thing, help usually earns a person some recognition, acknowledgment, appreciation, even trinkets or money, but something! It gives a person the feeling of being alive, of belonging, of doing the right thing, and so on. This is how wily older folks (gurus) initially entice younger folks to help the cause.
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Very nice message, system and summation on Help!

People help each other because most of us are social beings. As social beings we might be found on an arbitrary scale of 1 to 10. On that same scale altruism might be at 10 while self-interest to the exclusion of others might be at 1. No one is stuck at any arbitrary number. Someone at a 10 might be at a 1 in specific circumstances. As LaLa noted, someone at a 1 can be motivated to a higher number if the calling impinges on the desire to help.

There can be a time or situation where mere help turns into support. Support is help with commitment, resources, time, effort, energy, ... Any of the help processes can be run as support processes. Whereas resources are generally limited, I give an expenditure of support far greater thought/evaluation before I commit. Help? Sure. I can toss around all kinds of help with limited liability. Support? Well I have to make a real decision on that.

Oh... And as for beings at zero on that arbitrary scale, they aren't anti-social; they are just not social. Tossing a kid in a chain locker is anti-social. Not doing anything about it is not-social.

That's my take on help as a subject.

Edit: One more thing, help usually earns a person some recognition, acknowledgment, appreciation, even trinkets or money, but something! It gives a person the feeling of being alive, of belonging, of doing the right thing, and so on. This is how wily older folks (gurus) initially entice younger folks to help the cause.

Thank you Ted for this nice summation of the topic of Help! The distinction between help and commitment is an excellent point!. The numbering code is helpful as are all the reasons given for helping, I agree with them all and would only add feeling of been needed as a key element as well.

A couple of things about Hubbard's approach to Help which I feel are wrong: Hubbard is never content with receiving only Help but he also demands commitment, total commitment at that. Whatever commitment you give, he wants more, he wants your entire reason for being to be a commitment to his Cause. He justifies this by sayig that Scn is a deadly serious activity and the eternity of every man, woman and child on the Planet depends on it. These words sound noble and lofty and seem to make sense but a being is not given the time and space to reach his or her own conclusions as to whether Hubbard's assertion is true. The moment one reads it in KSW #1, total commitment is demanded, bypassing the being's decision making and control centers. The being is therefore put in a Danger condition the moment he or she reads their first bulletin.

Many beings can see that there are serious things wrong in the world and they respond to Hubbard's early call for a total commitment. In practice, however, Hubbard's promises as to how to fix society and straighten out this planet have been proven over many decades to be exagerated and overstated. Therefore, the commitment he is demanding and the bypass condition he puts us all in is not warranted.

One other thing, Ted, on your point of receiving trinkets, money, adulation etc. for giving help, you make a good point there as well. However, Hubbard is not willing to receive graciously what people wish to give him. Here again, he demands a Success Story be written as part of one's routing form. It is not right that a purveyor of help demand the manner in which that help is acknowledged! A Success Story should arise from the gratefulness of the recipient of help. Forcing someone to write a Success Story is an another form of a bypass and putting a person into a Danger Condition. To mean something, success stories should arise from the hearts of those who have been helped.

Lakey
 
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La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Success stories are a good point. You might feel just after an ARCX handling with your spouse that you you have handled your upsets with the person only to find that you have a screaming argument as soon as you get home, proof of effectiveness would be a month later not after the session. Stats not products as always. Success stories are stat pushed and a waste of the scrap paper they were written on.

I learned so much by clearing my Bulgarian garden of years of weed roots so that I could plant in the ground. If you work by cult methods you don't go for a product but a deadline. I finished the garden by thursday 2pm! Some roots stay in the ground and you end up with a forest of hops and nettles the next year with no space for the onions and garlic to grow.

Surgeons don't expect a success story after an op. They make sure that it's worked, and don't blame the patient because the wound didn't heal right.

Sometimes the help you need to give isn't going to give you a reward. Save the life of someone about to throw themselves off a bridge, you'll probably get a black eye!
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Good Points La La

Success stories are a good point. You might feel just after an ARCX handling with your spouse that you you have handled your upsets with the person only to find that you have a screaming argument as soon as you get home, proof of effectiveness would be a month later not after the session. Stats not products as always. Success stories are stat pushed and a waste of the scrap paper they were written on.

I learned so much by clearing my Bulgarian garden of years of weed roots so that I could plant in the ground. If you work by cult methods you don't go for a product but a deadline. I finished the garden by thursday 2pm! Some roots stay in the ground and you end up with a forest of hops and nettles the next year with no space for the onions and garlic to grow.

Surgeons don't expect a success story after an op. They make sure that it's worked, and don't blame the patient because the wound didn't heal right.

Sometimes the help you need to give isn't going to give you a reward. Save the life of someone about to throw themselves off a bridge, you'll probably get a black eye!

Good points, La La! That Thursday at 2:00 PM cut off time is extremely short sighted! I realize that collecting statistics within an Organization has merit in managing that organization and that there has to be some sort of cut off point in time for the collection of the statistics. Your point about surgeons is well taken. An operation may have taken place during a particular week and this fact should be noted. As to the outcome, that can not be determined until some time later, perhaps weeks or months later. The frantic push to gather stats every week by a certain cut off time and the demand that each week's stat be higher than the previous week's leads to a very frantic and sort of psychotic type of Organization.

Perhaps some stats should be gathered daily, some weekly and others monthly or quarterly. In business, quarterly reports are gathered and published. They are compared to the previous quarter and also to the same quarter of the previous year. Let's take deaths occuring in the operating room, this should be tracked daily and handled immediately.

As you pointed out at the end of your post, doing something for someone who needs help but does not want it, will not always generate a reward or stat for you. There has to be an element of self satisfaction involved. If you know you did a good job, sometimes that is the best reward of all, you have demonstrated your competence to yourself and feel better about yourself and this gives you more purpose to do more good deeds. This should be all the reward that you need. The reward coming in from the helped party just adds to your wins. No reward should ever be demanded for helping. People give freely of their thanks or praise; in a case where someone doesn't do that, the lack of praise should have no effect on you to slow you down.

In a betterment group, if you want to keep a statistic on success stories, it is simple. At the end of a service, THE PERSON IS ASKED IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO WRITE A SUCCESS STORY. Many will choose to do so, others may say that they would prefer to wait and see if the help produced lasting effects, still others may say that they are in a hurry and do not have time to do it. You would then take the stat from those who specifically chose to write a success story and track that stat. THAT WOULD BE A REAL STAT! Volunteered success stories mean something, forced success stories mean very little. I am sure Hubbard could figure this out, it is not rocket science, yet he chose to go with forced statistics, gathered every week Thursday at 2:00 PM. He chose to have frantic, confused Orgs, with no advanced planning or long range goals, only a live for the moment attitude. This was the way he operated. He knew what he was doing in this regard and this is the way he wanted things to be - frantic, urgent, frenzied, chaotic, even pyschotic.
Lakey
 
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La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Thanks Lakey, I don't know about the tech side of things, but if the admin is so destructive and ill thought out, causes so much stress and false reporting then I really can have no interest in the green on white side of things.

If helping others is 'case' then it's useful case for the species, a Genetic Sur Fac?
 
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