Hey everyone - meet Karen!

[Mark A. Baker]

WHEN President Bill Clinton pardoned a billionaire fugitive from justice on his last day in office, even usually loyal Democrats were dismayed.
He was a billionaire.
He gave a lot to the Clinton Library.
Guess who signed off on the Pardon ?
Eric Holder, BFF of Clinton and current Attorney General.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/01/nyt-holder-more-deeply-in_n_147605.html
New York Times:

WASHINGTON - In the much praised career of Eric H. Holder Jr., President-elect Barack Obama's choice to be attorney general, there is one notable blemish: Mr. Holder's complicated role in the 2001 pardon of Marc Rich, a billionaire financier who had fled the country rather than face federal tax evasion charges.

Mr. Holder's supporters portray him as having been a relatively uninvolved bystander caught in a Clinton-era controversy, the remarkable granting of a last-minute pardon by President Bill Clinton to a fugitive from justice. But interviews and an examination of Congressional records show that Mr. Holder, who at the time of the pardon was the deputy attorney general, was more deeply involved in the Rich pardon than his supporters acknowledge.


GOOGLE

eric holder marc rich pardon

Yes, and the prime minister of israel, among others, had asked him to do it. So what's your point? Is israel controlled by the Co$ also? Or perhaps decades of conspiratorial thinking on your part as a result of continual indoctrination by LRH, the SO, and other agents of the Co$ ....


Mark A. Baker

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Greg Hughes
It may have already have been metioned (I'm just catching up here) but there is one other very good reason why the CofS would be interested in buying Greg's silence; wasn't he posted as FBO (Flag Banking Officer) Int?

 

[Karen#1]

Greg Hughes ~~ more

Greg Hughes was sent to the SP Hole, known in Law Enforcement as "The dungeon."
Greg Hughes was posted WDC WISE.
That is Watchdog Committee over the Wise sector of Scientology.
He is a former Dentist from Glendale, CA.

This the Punishment/detention center that it over the top in Miscavige atrocities on veteran incarcerated SO members who cannot escape.

Even though, things have been upgraded for window dressing purposes and inmates are permitted to go back to their berthing to SLEEP, for months at a time inmates of the SP Hole had to sleep under their desks. They were not permitted to leave that space. Only after the St Pete Times revealed the atrocities did some window dressing changes take place.

EST TYPE SEMINAR screaming, punching, hitting, rituals of pouring water over an imprisoned inmate while screaming "Lesbo !!" (as in the case of Debbie Cook, former CO FSO) was just part of daily existence.
Screaming at the new inmate for his CRIMES hour after hour was the norm.

These sessions would sometimes go through the night.

Fred Schwartz, INT GI EXEC (Exec Strata no longer exists, the whole of Exec Strata was obliterated by Miscagive), Fred Schwartz, husband of recently passed Gretchen Schwartz chief REG of Flag Satellite Office in Los Angeles)
Fred was sentenced to SP hole when it was discovered that he recruited Larry Wollersheim into Scientology 30 years previously

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greg Hughes witnessed the lock down and sadistic treatment of the hell that is known as "SP Hole."

I would like to quote an excerpt of a great whistleblower on this very Board, Little Bear Victor.
Quote
Another Example of DM atrocity would be the cruelty inflicted on Rick Cruzen. Rick was the main recording guy and recording engineer for the Golden Era Musicians as well as other Audio division functions at Gold. Long Term Gold SO member. Excerpted from a write up by Little Bear Victor:

"Rick is one of the nicest people you would care to meet and one of the most talented staff members that DM drags around in mud all day long. While he has been the head of probably half of the divisions of Gold (due to constant transfers), the best music mixer they've ever had and just plain intelligent and caring individual, he gets the most degrading treatment by the ''boss.''

“I have to tell you an unfortunate detail about the last I know of Rick. Last I saw him before he ended up in the SP Room, he was carrying around shackles wherever he went -- I don't mean figuratively, but literally -- DM had ordered him to wear them and DM (or one of his personal staff) had the keys so they could shackle him up to a table leg or chair back or wherever they deemed suitable, so as to make sure he and everyone around him were constantly reminded of just what a "criminal" he was!" -- Posted by Little Bear Victor.

 

[Arthur Dent]

Payback will be a bitch, Davey, huh?

 

[Axiom142]

This is such a great thread! So much really interesting info, quite disturbing much of it, but interesting nonetheless.

Karen, you might consider extracting all your pertinent posts (along with any relevant details from others) and putting them all together in another thread and / or a blog. This thread has got quite long now and might be a bit daunting for anyone coming upon it for the first time.

I wish I had been offered $40,000 when I left the SO. I was made to wait for 8 1/2 months on a leaving routing form, and then when it suited them, I was thrown out on the street (almost literally) with about 30 mins notice. I had the clothes on my back, a very battered old suitcase with the rest of my clothes and one cardboard box with personal effects. That was pretty much all I owned in the world. I had no money and nowhere to go.

…

LRH has been dead and gone for a quarter of a century.
DM has taken power for a quarter of century and it has gotten worse and worse and worse.

Discussing what LRH did and did not do is not my primary motive for being on this board. While I have extraordinary revelations, I am here to reveal the criminality and depth of insanity of this "501C3" Tax free entity that uses.

There is nothing to be said about LRH that will do one IOTA of RESCUE or BETTERMENT to those who are trapped in a sadistic RPF. My drive is to stop the ATROCITIES and ABUSES.

It really is worse than even you think.

Thank you Emma for permitting the multi-viewpoint system, where even those coming from different views and different places can contribute to an overview and the exposure of an entity that is so off the rails, so dark, so punishing and extreme that the media and the Internet is having to shame Law Enforcement into taking action.

This is pretty close to my attitude. I have my own views on what sort of person Hubbard was. I never met him (unless one believes in past lives and accurate whole-track recall), but I’ve read numerous personal accounts both pro and anti. And, to be completely honest I’m not sure that I understand him at all. Certainly he was a very complex person, and probably cannot be easily summed up or understood.

By all means discuss what sort of person Hubbard was, but to a certain extent he is irrelevant. As Karen points out, he hasn’t been around for a quarter of a century. Miscavige and to a lesser extend, other senior ‘managers’ in the CoS are the ones we should be focussing on. They are committing abuses right now. These need to be made public and then hopefully the sheer weight of personal testimony will cause the appropriate law-enforcement agencies to take action.

There has been much bemoaning on ESMB and elsewhere about the apparent reluctance of the FBI, police forces etc to take action against the CoS. But what we have to remember is that the cult is an extremely wealthy and unscrupulous organization that will stop at nothing to protect itself. This ruthlessness and total disregard for the laws of the land will ultimately be it’s undoing, but in the meantime, there is a certain inertia that has to be overcome.

Metaphorically, I think we are close to the initial breaching of the dam. Once that happens, the cracks will spread very rapidly and the whole structure will come crashing down, carried away by a flood of truth and retribution.

Axiom142

 

[Wisened One]

Wonder which Prison DM will be sent to?

 

[Infinite]

By all means discuss what sort of person Hubbard was, but to a certain extent he is irrelevant. As Karen points out, he hasn’t been around for a quarter of a century. Miscavige and to a lesser extend, other senior ‘managers’ in the CoS are the ones we should be focussing on. They are committing abuses right now. These need to be made public and then hopefully the sheer weight of personal testimony will cause the appropriate law-enforcement agencies to take action.

Hubbard is entirely relevant to what is happening in the cult these days. Its difficult enough explaining to the public what is going on but to fully understand one must know how such behaviour can be justified by those perpetuating the crimes. Everything David Miscavige and his minions do is in alignment with L Ron Hubbard scripture, real-life example and/or that nebulous "command intention".

Although he was talking about cannibals, and to mangle the quote to make a point: "if you were a psychopath before, then Scientology will make you a better psychopath".

 

[degraded being]

If DM were to be tried in a court tomorrow and he were to be found guilty and sent to jail, all under the common agreement that LRH was irrelevant, the abuses could continue. They may or may not be in the same form that DM abuses, but they could continue.

Saying that LRH is irrelevant and DM is relevant is protecting an abusive cult which runs on abusive policies and has a paranoid world-view which motivates the policies and the abuse.

There is more than the abuse of people in the "hole" and the people in the RPF etc. There is the abuse that GO/OSA has inflicted on its perceived enemies. Paulette Cooper was just one of those. Did we reach a conclusion on how much LRH knew about that? LRH who, remember, was the leader of the cult.
There are posters here who have been harrased through GO/OSA implementing LRH policy. Is DM the one responsible for all of those too?

Blaming everything that's wrong on DM is convenient. Not only does the cult get off the hook by having a scapegoat, but some of DM's other partners in crime and abuse (SO execs present and past, and OSA) get off the hook also.

I repeat, DM is a scapegoat. That doesn't deny what he has done and the need to deal with him so that his abuses stop. Having him there as a scapegoat, is, and will be very convenient for all those who do not want to deal with all the other abusers, including those who are doing it not to forward DM's goals, but LRH's goals. It is irrelevant that he is dead. He is not irrelevant.

 

[jenni with an eye]

Hi Karen,



The information you are sharing here is riveting and so very important.

Thank you so much for sharing.

Please keep going.

 

[AnonyMary]

Yes, and the prime minister of israel, among others, had asked him to do it. So what's your point? Is israel controlled by the Co$ also? Or perhaps decades of conspiratorial thinking on your part as a result of continual indoctrination by LRH, the SO, and other agents of the Co$ ....


Mark A. Baker

That's kind of odd. she said no such thing. I believe she is saying that it was about an abuse of power and special interests.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I wish I had been offered $40,000 when I left the SO. I was made to wait for 8 1/2 months on a leaving routing form, and then when it suited them, I was thrown out on the street (almost literally) with about 30 mins notice. I had the clothes on my back, a very battered old suitcase with the rest of my clothes and one cardboard box with personal effects. That was pretty much all I owned in the world. I had no money and nowhere to go.

Sir Ax...at least you have to admire how well aligned their admin scales are!

"When you are thrown out, you will be thrown out alone and in-solvent and in the dark. And I'm glad. "​

 

[Panda Termint]

 

[GLH]

That is so well said DB. I wish I 'd thought of that. The abuses really need to stop.

 

[Karen#1]

Scientology Freeloader Bills for Dummies

I wish I had been offered $40,000 when I left the SO. I was made to wait for 8 1/2 months on a leaving routing form, and then when it suited them, I was thrown out on the street (almost literally) with about 30 mins notice. I had the clothes on my back, a very battered old suitcase with the rest of my clothes and one cardboard box with personal effects. That was pretty much all I owned in the world. I had no money and nowhere to go.

This is pretty close to my attitude. I have my own views on what sort of person Hubbard was. I never met him (unless one believes in past lives and accurate whole-track recall), but I’ve read numerous personal accounts both pro and anti. And, to be completely honest I’m not sure that I understand him at all. Certainly he was a very complex person, and probably cannot be easily summed up or understood.

By all means discuss what sort of person Hubbard was, but to a certain extent he is irrelevant. As Karen points out, he hasn’t been around for a quarter of a century. Miscavige and to a lesser extend, other senior ‘managers’ in the CoS are the ones we should be focussing on. They are committing abuses right now. These need to be made public and then hopefully the sheer weight of personal testimony will cause the appropriate law-enforcement agencies to take action
.........

Metaphorically, I think we are close to the initial breaching of the dam. Once that happens, the cracks will spread very rapidly and the whole structure will come crashing down, carried away by a flood of truth and retribution.

Axiom142

Dear Axiom,

I really liked this post, thank you. AGREED on many points.

I am so sorry to learn you were discarded on the street for your years of service with no $$$$. This was standard procedure for some 25 years. OSA wonders why they have this many enemies.....

I was also in that category. I demanded to leave, suffered my 3 months of Police Polygraph sec checks and left. No parting $$$$ in those days.

Sometimes I consider myself a supreme fool.
Do you know what I did ?

Within 6 weeks I PAID THEM high 5 figures FREELOADER BILL

!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did not have personal monies but I maxed the credit cards I did have and hoped for the best while I found out what I could do in the WOG world. One has no resume. Giving the CULT as a reference on a resume guarantees you will be shown the front door.

That's right, after slaving the long hours, suffering years of sleepless nights while I was responsible for the boarderline cases dumped on me to handle, ate my share of rice beans, lived on little to no staff pay many a time, I then paid them !!!!

I do not blame any reader for thinking of me as a supreme fool and village idiot.

I want my Freeloader money back !!!!!!

How dare they suck money out of me for FREELOADERS and now give a free pass to those who route out ?

Freeloader bills are all but cancelled now, and route outs are treated with kid gloves and TLC so they do not join boards like this and whistle blow on current affairs within.

The Internet is causing some positive changes within.

Abortions are all but cancelled as well. The Marc Headley law suit shamed them into making some changes.

Thanks Axiom ! Good post.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... There has been much bemoaning on ESMB and elsewhere about the apparent reluctance of the FBI, police forces etc to take action against the CoS. But what we have to remember is that the cult is an extremely wealthy and unscrupulous organization that will stop at nothing to protect itself. This ruthlessness and total disregard for the laws of the land will ultimately be it’s undoing, but in the meantime, there is a certain inertia that has to be overcome. ...

In the meantime the fbi & similar government investigative agencies are limited by the strictures of due process & the presumption of innocence, which actually is a good thing. Moreover, whatever anyone here's personal opinions of Hubbard maybe, neither the government nor the law will be the least bit impressed by the actions of a man who has been dead for 25 years. Any criminal fraud perpetrated by Hubbard is now, and for the last 25 years has been, 'subject to a Higher Court' than any which holds jurisdiction in the united states. :angel:

So, for the purpose of holding the Co$ responsible for its actions, Hubbard is irrelevant. If amy sort of legal case is to be made, it will be made against the present leadership of the church, not L. Ron Hubbard.

Hubbard's contradictions are only relevant as a basis for arguments aimed at dissuading potential new adherents and encouraging present members to leave.

... I believe she is saying that it was about an abuse of power and special interests.

No news there. Welcome to earth. That is standard operating procedure everywhere on the planet. Government & politics is all about special interest groups vying for influence in directing policy. The Co$ is merely one more such, and frankly it's rather small fry compared to many. Barely a blip on the radar.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Infinite]

Hubbard's contradictions are only relevant as a basis for arguments aimed at dissuading potential new adherents and encouraging present members to leave.

For sure. In terms of getting the cult into court, DM is the focus. However, in terms of understanding how it all happened and preventing a recurrence, it is essential that L Ron Hubbard be included in our discussions here on ESMB. As Mr Santayana said: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

To say Hubbard is irrelevant to the present day abuses, is disingenuous.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... To say Hubbard is irrelevant to the present day abuses, is disingenuous.

Only no one is saying that.


Mark A. Baker

 

[degraded being]

Only no one is saying that.


Mark A. Baker

Maybe not, but people have different agendas and there is nothing wrong with people saying what is relevant to their own agendas, so that what is relevant does not get buried just because it is irrlevant to someone else's.

Hubbard may be irrelevant to Karen's agenda, which is to end the current abuses, AFAIK. She said that Hubbard is irrelevant, and maybe he is - to her and her agenda - but others cannot split their own battles so sharply. Some do not want the justice to stop at DM, they want the cult to be stopped from carrying on other abuses in the name of LRH after DM is done with.

DM can be done for inurement, but how silly would it be to stop there and not talk about the inurement of the whole organization as it implements Hubbards policies of extracting a lot of money from "worshippers". During enquiries into scientology, the whole purpose of the organization and how it goes about its business, and the policies that it operates on were very much part of the questioning, and they will be again.

The separate battles of bringing down DM and bringing down the COS (or Hubbard) are only separate in a very superficial way. It may be a good thing to stick with what is relevant in one specific area, for example, who exactly hit whom, in the violence, - or who exactly ordered people to be locked up at INT-, but the larger issue of revoking religious status, or not conferring religious status where it hasn't already happened, depends a lot on the whole reason for the existence of the cult. So while it is good to stay focused on particular crimes and individuals, it cannot be done so at the expense of altogether ignoring the bigger picture, which can sometimes be an agenda in itself, even while "abuse" is being fought. This can look very hypocritical and self serving to me, although I am not always sure of what people really think about Hubbard.

In a more personal way, some people here, I presume, were well and truly fucked over (abused) by the Cult in a way that had very little to do with DM. It might stick in their gizzard a bit to be told that LRH is "irrelevant".

 

[Karen#1]

Response to Degraded Being

Hubbard may be irrelevant to Karen's agenda, which is to end the current abuses, AFAIK. She said that Hubbard is irrelevant, and maybe he is - to her and her agenda

No, I did not say this. I never said anything like this. Not even close.

I said I would like to tell my own stories about LRH in my own time, in my own way.

My high priority is nailing DM for his current crimes because people are under intense suffering, intense lockdown with NO WAY OUT

After DM has been nailed, we have all the time in the world to look at this entity that has become a corrupt financial enterprise.

Much can be done to look into this 501C3 entity, the policies, the whole CULT can be analysed, disected, bi-sected and scrutinized. It is just does not help those who are living in HELL right now.

I am partial to the idea of FIRST things FIRST.
Stopping the ABUSE and nailing Present time criminals is influencing the OUTCOME in real time.

Does that mean the rest of it is swept under the carpet after DM walks down the perp walk?

Of course not.

Do you really believe your quote ~
"it cannot be done so at the expense of altogether ignoring the bigger picture."

You think I want to ignore the BIGGER PICTURE ?

Don't be silly.

 

[degraded being]

No, I did not say this. I never said anything like this. Not even close.

I said I would like to tell my own stories about LRH in my own time, in my own way.

My high priority is nailing DM for his current crimes because people are under intense suffering, intense lockdown with NO WAY OUT

After DM has been nailed, we have all the time in the world to look at this entity that has become a corrupt financial enterprise.

Much can be done to look into this 501C3 entity, the policies, the whole CULT can be analysed, disected, bi-sected and scrutinized. It is just does not help those who are living in HELL right now.

I am partial to the idea of FIRST things FIRST.
Stopping the ABUSE and nailing Present time criminals is influencing the OUTCOME in real time.

Does that mean the rest of it is swept under the carpet after DM walks down the perp walk?

Of course not.

Do you really believe your quote ~
"it cannot be done so at the expense of altogether ignoring the bigger picture."

You think I want to ignore the BIGGER PICTURE ?

Don't be silly.

Well you have made your perspective more specific, which I appreciate. As far as you're concerned what I said, implied, might be silly, but there are others for whom it is not. I don't know where every ex scientologist or ex COS scientologist stands on all aspects of scientology.