Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric care

[Enthetan]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

I did, too. I don't understand why people are having a cow over this. If you don't like Hobby Lobby for appealing to the Supreme Court, then don't patronize them. The same goes for Chick-fil-A ( I actually tried it when all the controversy was happening & walked away feeling UGH!! Chic-fil-A is for those who enjoy very greasy food).

Hobby Lobby does provide contraception alternatives:

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...verage-for-16-types-of-contraception-n1857354

Yep. Similarly, if you really don't like Hobby Lobby's medical plan, the solution is simple: go work for somebody else. It's not like they were not up-front about who they were and what their positions were. They are not the only employers around.

I would actually prefer it if the government got out of the business of dictating what medical coverage, if any, a business should offer.

 

[Intentionally Blank]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

Next up:

The day after the Supreme Court's Hobby Lobby ruling, a group of religious leaders sent a letter to President Barack Obama asking that he exempt them from a forthcoming executive order that would prohibit federal contractors from discriminating against LGBT people.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/religious-groups-lgbt-hiring-hobby-lobby

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

I've followed the case.

Hobby Lobby DOES cover birth control. They did not want to cover the "morning after pill" and other similar products because they are abortifacients, and they don't want to pay for abortion.

Supreme Court Broadens Hobby Lobby Ruling to All Forms of Birth Control
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/supreme-court-scotus-hobby-lobby-all-forms-contraception
Excerpt:

The court vacated two decisions by the US Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit—Autocam Corp. v. Burwell and Eden Foods v. Burwell—and commanded the appeals court to rehear the cases in light of the Hobby Lobby decision. In both instances the Sixth Circuit had rejected requests from Catholic-owned businesses that sought to exempt the companies from offering insurance that covered any of the 20 mandated forms of birth control. The Supreme Court also compelled the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia to reopen a similar case, Gilardi v. Department of Health & Human Services. "With Tuesday’s orders," wrote The Nation's Zoë Carpenter, "the conservative majority has effectively endorsed the idea that religious objections to insurance that covers any form of preventative healthcare for women have merit."

Anyone who read the decision in Hobby Lobby knew this result was inevitable. Whatever the questions concerning the application of Hobby Lobby to insurance coverage for blood transfusions, vaccines or, in the case of Scientology, psychiatric medication and psychiatric care (which I stressed in the OP is an open question), the application of Hobby Lobby to all forms of birth control is obvious.

 

[Enthetan]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

Supreme Court Broadens Hobby Lobby Ruling to All Forms of Birth Control
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/supreme-court-scotus-hobby-lobby-all-forms-contraception
Excerpt: Anyone who read the decision in Hobby Lobby knew this result was inevitable. Whatever the questions concerning the application of Hobby Lobby to insurance coverage for blood transfusions, vaccines or, in the case of Scientology, psychiatric medication and psychiatric care (which I stressed in the OP is an open question), the application of Hobby Lobby to all forms of birth control is obvious.

OK, Sandra Fluke will have to go buy her own birth control pills if she works for a company owned by a religious Catholic.

So?

As I said earlier in this thread, the solution is simple: if you don't like the benefits package, go work somewhere else.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

I do not want ANYONE coming between me & my doctor.

If my doctor(s) & I decide to do any thing about any condition that is not a concern of anyone.

Insurance should cover ACCEPTED medical treatments. No dead chicken parts waved over my head please.

If I want to breed or not breed or get un-breed that is between my doctor(s), the sperm donor and my God(s). Not anyone else.

Will these same religious nut(s) adopt any child in any condition that is produced because some woman can not get birth control? I doubt it.

Ok... feel much better now...

:wink2:

why would a women not be able to get birth control?

 

[Churchill]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

IANAL but as I understand it, the Hobby Lobby case only applies to closely held Corporations.

I doubt Scamatology qualifies.

 

[Intentionally Blank]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

IANAL but as I understand it, the Hobby Lobby case only applies to closely held Corporations.

I doubt Scamatology qualifies.

So far, yes. But given the speed at which the "narrow" decision has already widened how long before private businesses are asking to be included in the exemption? Not that any scn owned business I've ever seen offers any sort of health care coverage so the point may be moot - but theoretically speaking....

Blanky

 

[Enthetan]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

why would a women not be able to get birth control?

Target and WalMart have birth control pills at $9 for a month's supply, $24 for a 90 day supply.

Don't tell me that if an employer declines to pay for it, women will suddenly "be denied access to reproductive choice". Besides, traditionally the guy is expected to bring his own condoms.

 

[Intentionally Blank]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

Target and WalMart have birth control pills at $9 for a month's supply, $24 for a 90 day supply.

Don't tell me that if an employer declines to pay for it, women will suddenly "be denied access to reproductive choice". Besides, traditionally the guy is expected to bring his own condoms.

That's true. As well it's true that one can choose to work elsewhere ..... maybe....the economy hasn't exactly been booming of late. but I'm not sure those things are the point. If the ACA mandates that all employers within certain parameters must provide health insurance, and that said insurance must cover certain things, but then companies are given exemption from what is supposed to be a universal law - based on the religious beliefs of the primary shareholders - then to me it looks a whole lot like government favoring one set of religious beliefs over other (or no) beliefs. I'm not a lawyer and clearly there is dissent in the legal community. I'm just saying it looks fishy.

Blanky

 

[Enthetan]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

That's true. As well it's true that one can choose to work elsewhere ..... maybe....the economy hasn't exactly been booming of late. but I'm not sure those things are the point. If the ACA mandates that all employers within certain parameters must provide health insurance, and that said insurance must cover certain things, but then companies are given exemption from what is supposed to be a universal law - based on the religious beliefs of the primary shareholders - then to me it looks a whole lot like government favoring one set of religious beliefs over other (or no) beliefs. I'm not a lawyer and clearly there is dissent in the legal community. I'm just saying it looks fishy.

Blanky

Before ObamaCare, companies had more liberty to decide what sort of benefits package they wanted to offer, and people had more choices as to what combination of pay and benefits they wanted. Keep in mind, that as far as the employer is concerned, they mainly see the total cost of having an employee: salary, benefits, providing office space, etc, etc. If not for our tax system, many people would prefer just getting the whole chunk of money and buying their own benefits.

By making health care a federally controlled mandate, the government has made healthcare decisions into political issues.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

That's true. As well it's true that one can choose to work elsewhere ..... maybe....the economy hasn't exactly been booming of late. but I'm not sure those things are the point. If the ACA mandates that all employers within certain parameters must provide health insurance, and that said insurance must cover certain things, but then companies are given exemption from what is supposed to be a universal law - based on the religious beliefs of the primary shareholders - then to me it looks a whole lot like government favoring one set of religious beliefs over other (or no) beliefs. I'm not a lawyer and clearly there is dissent in the legal community. I'm just saying it looks fishy.

Blanky

well I think that rich people in congress voting to force employers to pay health insurance for employees is getting mighty close to the idea of mob "majority rule" where the majority are free t impose whatever they wish on a minority. In this case - employers. Forcing employers to pay for services that violate their religious beliefs is, IMHO coming very close to the government establishing a religion and enforcing it and I am pleased that the Supreme Court has at least put an impediment in its way.

The disgust I feel at the people who have done this is immense. It is turning this nation into a mob of people who feel entitled to what other people have worked and risked for.

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

IANAL but as I understand it, the Hobby Lobby case only applies to closely held Corporations.

I doubt Scamatology qualifies.

The Church of Scientology itself is not, and never was the issue under Obamacare and Hobby Lobby, just as the Catholic Church itself is not, and never was the issue under Obamacare and Hobby Lobby.

The issue is whether a closely held corporate business owned by a Scientologist (or Scientologists) can refuse to provide coverage for psychiatric care or psychological care, or psychiatric medication, under the decision in Hobby Lobby. My guess is that the vast majority of Scientology owned businesses are owned as closely held corporations or the equivalent (e.g., LLC, LLP, sole propietorship, etc.). As I said in the OP, it is an open question under Hobby Lobby whether a closely held corporate business owned by a Scientologist (or Scientologists) can refuse to provide coverage for psychiatric care or psychological care, or psychiatric medication.

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

well I think that rich people in congress voting to force employers to pay health insurance for employees is getting mighty close to the idea of mob "majority rule" where the majority are free t impose whatever they wish on a minority.

Have you ever heard of democracy? The republican form of government guaranteed by the Constitution? That is what democracy is where a Constitutional right is not involved -- i.e., majority rule.

Funny thing. All sorts of people believe in democracy, the republican form of government, and majority rule... until they are in the minority on an issue. Then they have a "Constitutional" right not do do, or pay for, any damn thing they don't feel like doing or paying for.

Forcing employers to pay for services that violate their religious beliefs is, IMHO coming very close to the government establishing a religion and enforcing it and I am pleased that the Supreme Court has at least put an impediment in its way.

That's funny, I came to precisely the opposite conclusion.

In my view, saying everyone is subject to a particular legal obligation (whether it be pay for contraception, or vaccines, or blood transfusions, or psychiatric medication) except those who say they have a religious objection to the practice comes very close to the government establishing that particular religion, or religion in general (as opposed to atheism).

I really love religious exemptions from the law. If I have a secular, rational, empirical, well-founded objection to the law, or reason to believe I shouldn't be subject to the law, I'm still bound by it. But if I have an irrational, religious reason based solely on my personal belief -- on faith in things unseen, unproven, and unprovable -- in God, or Yaweh, or the Virgin Birth, or Allah, or Xenu -- then, and only then, am I exempt from following the law.

Yeah, Muslims should be exempt from laws barring female genital mutilation. Because Allah.

Wow, is that rational.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

Yeah, Muslims should be exempt from laws barring female genital mutilation. Because Allah.

FGM is a horrible practice which should be stamped out. However, this is not likely to happen soon, as the practice is well ingrained into the cultures where it exists. Those girls who have not had FGM are called "katiri" (someone fix my spelling) and seen as perverts.

About the only effective step for Western nations to do is to ban immigration for anyone coming with a daughter who has had FGM after the date of passage of the law.

If I had a lab where human spare parts could be grown for implantation this is where I'd start.

Helena

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

... the U.S. Supreme Court held that, as applied to closely held corporations, the HHS regulations promulgated under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010 (ACA) (often referred to as "Obamacare") imposing the contraceptive mandate violate The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA).

In other words, a closely held corporation does not have to provide insurance coverage for contraception if doing so would violate the owner's religious beliefs.

(Emphasis in bold mine above.) The real problem is, corporations want to have it both ways. "I'm a person" as regards freedom of choice and campaign contributions, but "I'm not a person" when it comes to culpability for crimes and liability for debts. And closely held corporations (been there, done that) have just taken it to the next level.

I like what I saw somewhere -- "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one".

Helena

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

About the only effective step for Western nations to do is to ban immigration for anyone coming with a daughter who has had FGM after the date of passage of the law.

Not to divert the thread too much (and I was actually initially trying to avoid discussing the merits of Hobby Lobby itself, and limit my discussion to its application to Scientology, psychiatry and psychiatric medication), I feel an obligation to note that your proposed solution would not work. There is now the practice in Western democracies of Female Genital Mutilation Tourism. It is common for members of certain religions and/or cultures to use summer vacation or spring break to take their daughters overseas for the surgery.

In response, in the United States Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 116 provides:

(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), whoever knowingly circumcises, excises, or infibulates the whole or any part of the labia majora or labia minora or clitoris of another person who has not attained the age of 18 years shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(b) A surgical operation is not a violation of this section if the operation is—

(1) necessary to the health of the person on whom it is performed, and is performed by a person licensed in the place of its performance as a medical practitioner; or

(2) performed on a person in labor or who has just given birth and is performed for medical purposes connected with that labor or birth by a person licensed in the place it is performed as a medical practitioner, midwife, or person in training to become such a practitioner or midwife.

(c) In applying subsection (b)(1), no account shall be taken of the effect on the person on whom the operation is to be performed of any belief on the part of that person, or any other person, that the operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual.

(d) Whoever knowingly transports from the United States and its territories a person in foreign commerce for the purpose of conduct with regard to that person that would be a violation of subsection (a) if the conduct occurred within the United States, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

With any luck, defenders of religious liberty will get a Hobby Lobby exception to the law. (Yes, that was sarcasm.)

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

I like what I saw somewhere -- "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one".

I liked:

If corporations are people then why can't I punch one in the fucking face?

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Scientology fallout from Hobby Lobby decision continues

Scientology fallout from Hobby Lobby decision continues.

Roanoke Times: Why the Hobby Lobby decision stinks
http://www.roanoke.com/news/columns...cle_c6dda402-006f-11e4-960a-001a4bcf6878.html

Excerpt:

The Church of Scientology is a recognized church -- whether you believe their science-fiction space opera BS or not. Scientologists believe that the use of any psychiatric drug -- including antidepressants, which are among the most prescribed medicines in the United States -- is tantamount to a sin. Will a business owned by a Scientologist now contend it should not have to cover psychiatric medications as part of its health coverage?

Roanoke Times: Scientologist is displeased with Dan
http://www.roanoke.com/news/columns...cle_6d75eb12-025f-11e4-acba-001a4bcf6878.html

Mr. Casey,

Your article (“Why the Hobby Lobby decision stinks,” June 30) contains an offensive reference to Scientology. Substituting any other religion in place of Scientology in your comment illustrates how bigoted and inappropriate it was.

You would never write: “whether you believe their science-fiction space opera BS or not. Roman Catholics believe that the use of any form of birth control—including pills, which are among the most prescribed medicines in the United States—is tantamount to a sin.”

The only product of a comment such as yours is to spread bigotry against Scientology. And if the press popularizes prejudice against one faith, whose faith is next?

The web page of the United States Department of Justice dealing with religious freedom doesn’t say, “Protecting the Religious Freedom of All, Except Scientology.” It states, “Protecting the Religious Freedom of All.” It is all inclusive because that is the overriding all-embracing principle at the heart of our democracy.

I request that you refrain from such prejudicial remarks in the future.

We respect your right to freedom of speech and the press. You should respect our right to freedom of religion and association. Bigotry has no place in our society.

Regards,

Luis Gonzalez
Scientologists Taking Action Against Discrimination

-----------------

Note from Dan: Nothing I wrote impinges one iota on Mr. Gonzalez's ability to freely practice his religion. By the way, below is part of the Wikipedia account of some of the theological underpinnings of the Church of Scientology. The full article is here.

Xenu was, according to Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who 75 million years ago brought billions of his people to Earth (then known as "Teegeeack") in a DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes, and killed them with hydrogen bombs. Official Scientology scriptures hold that the thetans (immortal spirits) of these aliens adhere to humans, causing spiritual harm.

These events are known within Scientology as "Incident II", and the traumatic memories associated with them as "The Wall of Fire" or "R6 implant". The narrative of Xenu is part of Scientologist teachings about extraterrestrial civilizations and alien interventions in earthly events, collectively described as "space opera" by Hubbard. Hubbard detailed the story in Operating Thetan level III (OT III) in 1967, warning that the "R6 implant" (past trauma) was "calculated to kill (by pneumonia, etc.) anyone who attempts to solve it."

Within the Church of Scientology, the Xenu story is part of the church's secret "Advanced Technology," considered a sacred and esoteric teaching.

 

[Enthetan]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

FGM is a horrible practice which should be stamped out. However, this is not likely to happen soon, as the practice is well ingrained into the cultures where it exists. Those girls who have not had FGM are called "katiri" (someone fix my spelling) and seen as perverts.

About the only effective step for Western nations to do is to ban immigration for anyone coming with a daughter who has had FGM after the date of passage of the law.

If I had a lab where human spare parts could be grown for implantation this is where I'd start.

Helena

Better idea: ban immigration for anyone coming with a daughter who has had FGM. Period. And treat FGM performed AFTER they come in, as serious child abuse, which results in the daughter being put into foster care (with non-Muslim foster parents) and the abusing parents being immediately deported. That would probably reduce FGM significantly.

 

[phenomanon]

Re: Hobby Lobby and Scientology business health insurance coverage for psychiatric ca

Hobby Lobbyists proclaimed that there were warm loving Christians who were there to adopt the children born from these abortions that these Chritians had saved from birth control.

My question id this... where are these warm loving Christians when there are 52,000 children at the border needing someone to at least feed and give them a bed?
It could be on a temporary emergency volunteer basis, until our Govt comes up with a plan to handle the Humanitarian crisis at our border.

Christians, where art Thou?