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How Dangerous is New OTVII (Solo NOTs)


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It is interesting that there is a high level of cancer among those on New OT VII and OTVIII,

Regards, David.

Hubbard was famous for making up statistics such as how you won't get sick if you do these proceedures. But.....this is just as bad. You really have no idea of the statistics of how many people get caner or not after doing these levels. It could be high could be low or it could just be the same as the normal population ( which is what I personally believe) ....but none of us have any idea. Your article is interestign but I think when giving statistics you should really know the statistics. And you don't....neither did Hubbard....don't be like him
For a long time it was right in front of my nose and I didnt see it or didnt want to truly see it. Finally, I looked and it is so simple its almost ridiculous but when someone doesnt want to see, not much can be done :confused2:

First, L Ron Hubbard Jr gave an interview which I think most of you know about. I remember this part had really impinged on me than

So, I came to see clearly that Scientology is evil. Its core is evil but obviously WELL hidden. You got to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to know that. But see, once you are there, you are already trapped in something that is evil that you werent aware of.

He said that Jesus didnt exist yet he said that he is the Antichrist mentioned in the bible. He said Jesus didnt exist yet he said he was a pedophile.

I am not going to dwell on Scientology. Its not worth it. I believe in good. Scientology is NOT good. I believe in compassion and caring. Scientology doesnt believe in compassion and caring (its low tone. Plus what are you doing helping those people that are in trouble. After all, they pulled it in! THEIR problem). See how it dehumanize you?

And that is just a little part of what I came to understand about Scientology.

So I will never ever approach it again. Even independent Scientologists or freezoner because that is what Scientology truly is. Evil to its core but so well crafted.

Even the best intentioned person cant in the end get something good out of this.

L Ron Hubbard Jr. said Scientology was a 'soul cracker'. I totally agree with him. I know when I was still in but near the end I said a few times I felt like they hurt my soul. Not my mind only. But my soul. That is how I felt truly.

I wasnt that wrong eh?


jeez the incumbent and the GOP field are so mediocre this year it's a shame ron can't be thirtyfive yet


Patron with Honors
Hate to be a party pooper but if there is any truth to the OT levels why don't all of the non OTs who read the Zenu stuff go insane when their cases get restimulated? The only thing got stimulated for me was my funny bone! Hubbard was a science fiction writer but the Zenu stuff is B grade Sci fi at best. Bet LRH laughed all the way to the bank that people would pay major $$ for something that silly


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Hate to be a party pooper but if there is any truth to the OT levels why don't all of the non OTs who read the Zenu stuff go insane when their cases get restimulated? The only thing got stimulated for me was my funny bone! Hubbard was a science fiction writer but the Zenu stuff is B grade Sci fi at best. Bet LRH laughed all the way to the bank that people would pay major $$ for something that silly

I bet that by the time he got around to writing OT-3 he had come to believe his own tall stories, and he was deadly serious.


Patron with Honors
the most dangerous thing about it is that you'll go broke and lose your mind wondering why you were so stupid to let yourself go broke so you could do this stupid shit

Idle Morgue

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Thanks for your posting everyone. I am very interested in understanding this. May I ask you what your spiritual beliefs were before Scientology? Did you believe in God? Did you believe in the Devil and what are they now that you are out?

I believed in God and after a few years in Scientology, found myself with no God, no angels, nothing. "hipp-hipp-hurray?"

I send you all love. :bighug::love2::love2::hug:


Bitter defrocked apostate
. . .
I believed in God and after a few years in Scientology, found myself with no God, no angels, nothing. "hipp-hipp-hurray?"
. . .

That's to be expected. It's because Scientology is not a religion. It employs religious cloaking in an effort to deflect critics (and it worked, mostly, back in the 1980s), but it's as ungodly and cynical a scam as anything yet invented.

The thing about God, though, is that He forgives everything. He receives any who come back to Him. He hears, when you're ready. Even the split-second prayers of the pilots of doomed aircraft... He knows.

Angels... I'm not so sure. There's an awful lot of highfalutin Renaissance guff bolted on, there. The essence may be simpler. God will hear you, though, if you choose to speak to Him. (No church necessary, and no donations necessary. I will personally come round and spank the first person who says God is "out-exchange".)


Wow i really enjoyed reading some of the replies on this thread.. thought i would put in my own beliefs!!

My sister died a few years ago and having not been able to deal with the greif very well i put my energy towards scientology thinking it would be my "saviour" because it just HAD to be true right? Wat a load of crap and waste of money/time that was!!

I put my faith now in a higher power, whether that may be god or angels or whomever..I actually enjoy my life now knowing there will be no more "study", scientology lingo, word clearing for hours, being put down about myself or friends who play up once in a while because they are an "SP" (uhhhh how about they are just normal average human beings with issues like the rest of us??) I wasnt in for long but the time i was it felt like constant jail time and harrassment!! .. I believe everything happens for a reason and i am excited to live my life the way I want to!!!

Thankyou Forum!!!! :happydance::clap::coolwink:

- Z


A Girl Has No Name
Thanks for your posting everyone. I am very interested in understanding this. May I ask you what your spiritual beliefs were before Scientology? Did you believe in God? Did you believe in the Devil and what are they now that you are out?

I believed in God and after a few years in Scientology, found myself with no God, no angels, nothing. "hipp-hipp-hurray?"

I send you all love. :bighug::love2::love2::hug:

I'm Christian. I did believe in God before. Still do. I think God probably communicates with us somehow, through "conscience" or the Holy Spirit or whatever you want to call it. I had a huge amount of "bad feelings" when I was doing the Dianetic stuff, and I finally decided to look online because I was sure it was God trying to tell me to run away. I looked and I ran.

I think angels exist in the metaphysical sense. I also think that there are angels among us. If you pray for it sincerely, God will send you who you need to help you figure this all out.



I like the idea that we are all part of a huge entity, call it god, call it whatever, but I like the concept of a universal mind just making us out of ourselves to play with eachother. evil? Well that is just one of the flaws one should avoid, just like a sick man's rambling words of how we all should live...... thanks LRon.


I am pretty sure by every good act I do I do my part in divesting my own mind of all that is abstract, kinda zen thingy, but it keeps my integrity in tact.


Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I did Scientology for about 5 years. I saw a tiny little group of people with more people dead within the small Org than all of my life. (45 years old). I freaked out when one 40 year old woman went to the MECCA of technical perfection to do some auditing and within one year of returning was diagnosed with brain tumor.:bigcry: Died one year later. Another young man died of a heart attack. WTF?? :nervous: Another 30 year old ex staffer committed suicide. :bigcry: 1 OT died of cancer. :no: Another one died of old age most likely. Not to mention I noticed I became more and more isolated in life. WOG land became unbearable. Scientology became unbearable. WTF??

I thought Scientology was suppose to help people survive. I became more and more disenchanted! I eventually got the hell OUT!


just another son of God
Re: Part 5 . . . The Danger of OT3-S/NOTs

Part 5

My observation is that one’s spiritual connections as apparent in present time come in all shapes, sizes, degrees of density, aliveness, friendliness or conflictiveness. Some, of course, exhibit evil.

And there is or has been interaction between you and your spiritual connections as well as interaction between those spiritual Beings themselves. Many different outcomes have resulted from these interactions and exchanges: some have resulted in construction and development of “things,” and some have resulted in continued interactions and relationships that span the spectrum from highly aware “dialogue” and interface down to unawareness of the phenomena and also unconsciousness and mystery.

Some connections are in such a state of unawareness to us, that we operate with them though as one with us. They are present, we are unaware of it, and we go along just as though we are alone without any awareness of any other presence melded with us. And this “unity” can be quite whole—they are totally at one with you.

These observations are not in respect to my own case only: it is as observed with respect to many individuals.

The above is the current human condition.

The big question is: how come? And what is all this about?

Much has been written relating to the above in the various religions. Their beliefs on the matter vary, but one set of beliefs that has been delved into extensively here on ESMB is that of the Buddhist and Hindu doctrines, and particularly the notions of Nirvana, Brahma and Brahmin and a putative relationship to “God” as is viewed in other religious belief systems.

See Vinaire’s thread “Oh! God!!!” http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11238
These concepts and beliefs are discussed in depth by many ESMB members.

I am familiar with the beliefs of the Buddhist and Hindu doctrines, and been to India twice and to other locations to inspect the scenario.

Personally, based on my actual experience and observation so far, and based on what I have learned from the experiences of others with whom I familiar, I find the beliefs as delineated in the Buddhist and Hindu doctrines of net, neti; Nirvana, Brahma and Brahmin and a putative relationship to “God” to be in error or incomplete, and certainly limiting and/or distracting from a full perception of what is available to be learned at the highest levels of existence.

See my posts #2 and #46 on the “Oh! God!!!” thread, linked above, that attempted to invite the participants out of the limiting paradigm inherent in those beliefs. Also see various posts in a similar vein on Vinaire’s “I Glimpsed the R6 Bank” thread here:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=304495#post304495 in posts #164, #355, #478, and on.

As noted in my earlier parts of this missive, there came a time when handling the OT3-NOTs “traffic” that I ceased dealing with “body thetans.” I became involved exclusively in dealing with spiritual connections located at distance within the wider realm of existence, which existence I spanned. Some, as noted, were hung up in earlier universes though still with connections or comm.-lines “attached” to me. Some of these connections were uncomfortable or even painful when enlivened. Some were wonderfully harmonious and empowering when revivified.

And it is to be noted that these particular spiritual connections I processed in NOTs and in S/NOTs, in particular, were not very often in any way connected to my physical body. Sometimes the connection was purely spiritual: spirit to spirit; and sometimes it was to or via my “mental universe.”

Fortunately, I eventually became aware of an alternative, more truthful and workable technology for recovery of own truth and the restoration of own true powers, abilities and states of Being. And in November, 1994 I abandoned my pursuit of S/NOTs procedures after almost 12 full years. And that ended my belief of almost 40 years that Scn was the “only way out.”

This is what I have learned in respect to the above since November, 1994.

Some of what I learned since 1994 is noted above, of course; but here is the “juice.”

One of the key, most important things in the technology of Knowlegism—and it is to be noted here that Alan W at one time called his body of work “Ascensionism”—is to recover for and have fully honored by the individual any and all prior spiritual ascension states attained so that the individual can then be processed and advanced based on and in the context of his or her highest attained states of awareness, abilities, powers, knowledge, truth and capacity for presence etc.

That is, one is processed from a position of strength, power and knowledge: not from a position of confusion, uncertainty, weakness, upset or even unknowingness.

I have spent the last 15 years on the action of recovering all of my priorly attained ascension states. In my case there has been much to clean up, and while I like to think I’m nearly “there,” I know it is not complete yet. Though much has been learned doing this action.

Much has been written by many who posit that “we all stem from an original single Beingness or presence.” It is posited that at some time in “the beginning” a single existence existed and that it split up into all of the Beingnesses we now observe as me, thee and all the other Beings in existence.

I have not found that to be the case.

What I have observed, experienced and processed in session is a series of events as follows. I found this to be so for other individuals whose advanced cases I am familiar with.

Long, long ago before my decline through many universes (or domains of existence) prior to the current physical universe, I existed quite happily as myself, and with no other apparent connections. Then, eventually, I became aware of the existence of another presence who emanated some form of “life” or energy. This interested me, and I wanted to know what the presence was. Other people who’ve had this experience sought to love the first other presence they encountered, some wanted to relate, others wanted to co-create. We each have our particular “thing” on this. We reached toward our first discovered other existence in our individual way, using our preferred basic attribute or spiritual quality.

As the game progressed, many more connections; all sovereign, competent whole Beings were accumulated. Each expressing themselves and exchanging life-force and manifestations of their powers, virtues, qualities etc. And the level of this exchange was such that there was perfect duplication of each others’ presence and actions.

In fact, it is interesting, as I was typing this right now, Virginia just returned from a day doing her Montessori Teacher Certification exercises, and interrupted to tell me what had happened for her. It is germane to the paragraph above.

The Montessori method treats children as sovereign Beings and does not “tell” them—it invites and allows the child to get active on its own volition and to discover for itself the particulars and lessons of the environment it is in. The magic of the method is that we adults provide the environment that is conducive to the child learning what is appropriate at each stage of its development.

To cut the long story short, Virginia and the children were out in snow covered Central Park. The kids are aged 3 to 5. This, like all Montessori “sessions” was “work” not play. The kids were allowed to go off and do their thing—no instructions, no must-do’s but, of course, adult care, observation and participation.

As a part of being in the “work” session, Virginia started building a snowman on her own. It didn’t take long before one, then another of the toddlers came up to inquire what she was doing.

“I’m building a snowman.”

“Oh, can I help! Can I help!” came the response from the kids.

“Sure,” was my sweet Virginia’s reply.

So the three of them got busy on the snowman construction. But it wasn’t long before other toddlers arrive to inquire what was going on.

Same routine.

Eventually over a dozen toddlers had joined the enterprise, all high on their participation in the co-creation of the snowman.

Ever noticed how toddlers love to help, co-create and contribute? They get high on being able to.

I couldn’t help being reminded of the game, long, long ago when a bunch of spiritual Beings got high on the enjoyment of co-creation and contribution to each other and each others’ creations and emanations.

Eventually, we rose to such heights of perfection and excellence in our co-creation, and duplication of each others’ presence and Being, that we became as one and ascended to an exquisite high in unity.

It was a magical, beautiful experience of unity, of being “at one,” even as one, such was the level of perfect duplication, love, co-existence and harmony of co-creation.

Then goofs were made. I’ll not articulate what I found my perception of them were. That would not be proper or prudent on an open forum.

But enough is to say that the union, the “oneness,” began a decline from its ecstasy down to a level of relationship and mood where it went negative and was shattered. And we went our separate ways with some degrees of pissed-offness.

In my personal experience, and it has been found with others I know, this sequence was our first ascension to an ecstatic high and then crash and burn. This appears the be the basic on the chain of what we humans experience when we have ascensions in auditing or training and education which then are “lost” due to subsequent restimulation (triggering) of the residual negatives on our cases.

There is colossal loss and upset locked up in the subsequent repeats of this phenomena along the time-track to present time down through the earlier universes (each of which went through this cycle), and also in the similar events within the physical universe.

Alan Walters articulated in his book “Gods in Disguise” the sequence of the earlier universes prior to the physical universe. I have found what he wrote to be valid.

It is to be noted these earlier universes were purely spiritual in nature, but they were also games domains of relationships wherein we did accumulate debris in the form of spiritual life force locked up in old conflicts, misunderstandings, non-comprehensions, upsets, losses, etc. This is the “what” of the accumulated charge, force and mass that is manifest in our “case.”

Each universe was an attempt by us to continue a relationship by solving the “unsolvable problem” of the prior universe or game scenario. (I prefer to view these earlier universes as “Domains of Existence” or “Games Domains.”)

The scenario being described or posited in Buddhist belief as being the highest level of spiritual existence describes a condition that exists many times along the “time trail” and has commonly occurred in each of the universes as we moved through our existence.

It has been stated on ESMB that the highest level of existence, as posited in Buddhism, is “unknowable.” I have not found that to be the case. I would say that to hold such a belief would indeed preclude one from being able to know the truth of the state however.

Some posit that this “ultimate truth” pre-exists any existence. I have not found that to be correct either.

We each exist, and we have engaged in relationships. The wisest course of any processing action would be to optimize those relationships; to recover our full volition and knowing exercise of our powers and abilities; and to recover knowledge, control and responsibility for what we have done and created.

The CofS NOTs tech does not do this. It violates these basic principles and unmocks relationships. That is the danger of the “upper levels tech” of OT3 through S/NOTs.

Based on my observations I have come to the belief that the physical universe is the result of a long chain of creations by us as part of our relationship, and that it is composed of the debris of our misaligned spiritual life-forced as occurred or developed down through the many universes of our relationship.

Each of these “universes” or games domains, including the physical universe, was created within our basic infinite Beingness. In other words, each of the universes are within you.

The trap we humans have put ourselves in is to have inverted (the “Power Split” I spoke of at the FZ Conference in Pasadena) to then think/believe that we are actually in or inside of the Game Domain that in fact is inside of us, our existence. Logic alone suggests that the only location these game domains could have been created at would have to be within the span of the creator (us). I have observed this to be so.

Thus the liability and danger of NOTs-S/NOTs is that it targets and executes the unmock of the relationships that developed the stability of the chain of solutions to the earlier catastrophes of lost games (universes), unsolvable problems, etc., without restoring the individual’s needed knowledge and powers required to correctly address these old lost games and restore optimum scenarios.

Note I used the word “relationships” there, not the word “terminal(s).”

The game of “existence” or “life” down through the universes is based on relationships. Without relationships there is no game, no exchange or reciprocation, no joy, no thrill of the sensation of the experience of creating to or receiving from another.

The NOTs “tech” trashes this principle, and fails to address the optimization of relationships.

Looks like this is enough for this post . . . .

Part 6 deals with some aspects of relationships.

Interesting stuff in this 6 part series of posts. I have looked thread over several times for Part 6 (on relationships). Perhaps it was not labeled. Will look again.
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In present time

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Re: Part 5 . . . The Danger of OT3-S/NOTs

Interesting stuff in this 6 part series of posts. I have looked thread over several times for Part 6. Perhaps it was not labeled. Will look again.
spirit, that bug of yours is like an april fools joke that never stops.:bug:

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
OT levels sound just absolutely crazy - I am so grateful that the confidential materials were on the internet and now I really understand why the Church of Scientology does not want their customer's to see them....it makes many run and never come back.

Thank God for the internet!! It is saving lives every day!


just another son of God
Re: Nick, Lucid as Usual . . .

Interesting stuff in this 6 part series of posts. I have looked thread over several times for Part 6 (on relationships). Perhaps it was not labeled. I will look again.
I think I found it. It can't get any better than this.
Basically, "all of life is a process" . . . it is a series of actions that produce results/outcomes. Simply put, we each are doing actions to each other that produces a result! :yes:

Sometimes the outcome of the what we do and the how we do it produces a happy, enjoyable, mood uplifting outcome; and sometimes the outcome is a "downer" that brings about an unwanted outcome in the recipient. :yes:

And realize, communication is a process . . . it is an action that produces an outcome.

So, having "cleared" the word "process" . . . this is the simplicity of the handling of a newly revealed spiritual connection.

First wise thing to do is ascertain if it is an individual spiritual Being, or a team or "gang" of them.

Next: Where is it?
This can be a location in comparison to you spiritually, your mind, the physical universe, you body, or even in the context of time off in an earlier universe. Wonderful relief is gained by getting this correct.

Next: realize this spiritual Being, just like you, is hung up in handling "stuff." Hell, it might even be hung up in handling stuff on your behalf and for your benefit. At a minimum, it may be that it is hung up in handling an old situation, its solution to which is inadvertently impacting on you . . . . you should not take the fact that his old solution is unfortunate, as a personal attack on you! :no:

The question to have answered is: What incident, mood or imagery is it/are they handling?

To be noted here is that unpleasant/unwanted "moods" affect us in ways that we want to "solve" them. Note that item "imagery" . . . the basic game at a spiritual level is by way of exchange of telepathically projected (and sometimes superimposed) images . . . these are holographic 3DH . . . not the Hubbardarian "picture" variety in flat 2D, though they first can appear that way.

Get the Being to itsa on the Incident, mood, image.

Ask the Being: What are you? This rehabs the Being's true state of Being, or if a team, that they are operating as a team (of individuals).

Next: ask, What process is the Being being forced to run on you?

Key question . . . . you see, the Being is being "forced" to run the process on continuum and automatically to solve the unwanted scenario it has had "all this time."

Address how it affected you, and pull off the consequences of the process and its effetcs . . . all of them

Now return the flow . . . What process are you being forced to run on the spiritual Being/Team?

Lift off the effects created and the consequences . . . all of them.

That should keep you happy for a while . . . .

There is more to the full extended R/D that applies, if it applies.

Sometimes there has been a "Third Party" in the background.

Bottom line, you want to undo the automatic conflict and misdirected action, and restore harmonious operating basis between you. :yes:

The above is a simple and first step handling for the easy traffic on this subject. Some of it can get more complex, and needs other handlings, lots of which are available.
Roger, Great stuff here. I am getting blown away by following your posts, literallty!! I like the thought of a spiritual team over controlling BTs.
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