How did DM assume power?

[5th Invader Force]

I'm sure DM does follow some of LRH's policies but not all of them, and I would go so far as to say, not even most of them.

That's why the COS is in trouble.

Here's just a few examples.

He's altering LRH's writings, which is certainly not following policy and is something he definitely not supposed to do. As a matter of fact, I believe doing so is a "high crime" as far as LRH was concerned.

Doing something like that is totally off policy.

LRH came out with St. Hill sized Orgs idea, DM has abandoned that policy from LRH.

What's this Golden Era of Tech? It's nothing but alterations.

Did you ever hear LRH speak of "Golden Era of Tech" in his writings or lectures?

Following the tech? Are you kidding, he's altering it.

LRH policy is to run the church on stats, people and delivery, DM is running it entirely differently. Like with IAS donations with no exchange.

I think someone on the Internet did a complete side by side comparison of how DM is running things and how LRH ran things and they are very different.

There was one person who definitely did follow LRH's policies, LRH.

When LRH was in control, the church was growing, when DM took full power in 1990, based on what Marty Rathbun stated, that's when it started it's slow slide downward.

DM on source?

Maybe on some of the polices from LRH that served his agenda but there's a lot of polices that he's not following.

He's supposed to follow all the polices, not just the one's that support his agenda.

And to say that because DM followed a few LRH polices while ignoring all the rest means he's "on source" is fallacy.

To be truly "on source" DM needs to follow all of them.

Here's a link to that comparison between LRH and COB that I was referring to in my first reply.

Just click on the subject matter and you will see the comparison between LRH and COB at the bottom.

http://www.friendsoflrh.org/COBvsLRH/

 

[NoName]

I'm sure DM does follow some of LRH's policies but not all of them, and I would go so far as to say, not even most of them.

That's why the COS is in trouble.

Here's just a few examples.

He's altering LRH's writings, which is certainly not following policy and is something he definitely not supposed to do. As a matter of fact, I believe doing so is a "high crime" as far as LRH was concerned.

Doing something like that is totally off policy.

LRH came out with St. Hill sized Orgs idea, DM has abandoned that policy from LRH.

What's this Golden Era of Tech? It's nothing but alterations.

Did you ever hear LRH speak of "Golden Era of Tech" in his writings or lectures?

Following the tech? Are you kidding, he's altering it.

LRH policy is to run the church on stats, people and delivery, DM is running it entirely differently. Like with IAS donations with no exchange.

I think someone on the Internet did a complete side by side comparison of how DM is running things and how LRH ran things and they are very different.

There was one person who definitely did follow LRH's policies, LRH.

When LRH was in control, the church was growing, when DM took full power in 1990, based on what Marty Rathbun stated, that's when it started it's slow slide downward.

DM on source?

Maybe on some of the polices from LRH that served his agenda but there's a lot of polices that he's not following.

He's supposed to follow all the polices, not just the one's that support his agenda.

And to say that because DM followed a few LRH polices while ignoring all the rest means he's "on source" is fallacy.

To be truly "on source" DM needs to follow all of them.

Welcome to the never-ending ESMB disagreement.

I agree that there is Admin Tech and the other stuff that I suppose you could call Spiritual Tech. I tend to agree that much of the abuse comes from the admin tech. LRH is the source of that. I have no doubt that DM is abusing some of the admin tech and has even created some of his own squirrel tech. Certainly, parts of it are being abused differently under DM than under LRH.

But the spiritual tech isn't all that great either. LRH ripped off Dianetics from abreaction therapy (yes, from the psychs). That was a form of therapy in the 40's and 50's that has since been surpassed by other more effective forms of therapy (Cognitive Behavioral). So it makes perfect sense to me that the lower bridge stuff is helpful, because really that abreaction therapy has some benefit to it.

The upper bridge stuff, including OT levels is also ripped off. But I don't think that it is harmless. LRH ripped it off from occult practice, and I happen to believe that some of it is truly evil.

That said, if someone wants to be an Indie and take a cafeteria style approach to Scientology spiritual practices, I won't try to stop them. If it gets them out of the Co$, I might even encourage it.

My major quarrel is with the abusive practices, not beliefs. Still, I don't care to indulge any wheat and chaff exercise with respect to Scientology practices. Most people here feel the same way, and some express this sentiment more strongly than other.

 

[NoName]

Here's a link to that comparison between LRH and COB that I was referring to in my first reply.

Just click on the subject matter and you will see the comparison between LRH and COB at the bottom.

http://www.friendsoflrh.org/COBvsLRH/

I've only heard a little bit about this website - who are the friends of LRH?

 

[5th Invader Force]

But the spiritual tech isn't all that great either. LRH ripped off Dianetics from abreaction therapy (yes, from the psychs). That was a form of therapy in the 40's and 50's that has since been surpassed by other more effective forms of therapy (Cognitive Behavioral). So it makes perfect sense to me that the lower bridge stuff is helpful, because really that abreaction therapy has some benefit to it.

I'll tell you what NoName, why don't you ask a class XII auditor who knows that tech front to back, who audits outside the church, and an auditor that's been using that tech for the last 30 years whether it works or not.

Ask that class XII auditor whether they have helped people with it or not.

Ask that class XII auditor whether the people they audited with that tech got gains and wins with it or not.

OK?

Do you know any class XII auditors outside the church you can ask?

 

[Gottabrain]

"Scripture", I agree, is not the sole source of the problem.

It also takes a person who is blindly predisposed and/or willing to apply the sociopathic scripture to other human beings.

That's the recipe for the predatory hoax called Scientology.

Remove either one and there are no declares, disconnections, chain lockers, overboards, kidnapping, imprisonment, beatings, lies, black ops, crime waves, acceptable truths, shore stories and the full-scale fraud affectionately known as Clear, OT and The Bridge to Total Freedom.

I'm still waiting for Marty (Mark) Rathbun to issue an obituary and apology to Diana Coletto for driving ...very...slowly...down the street to bring out her husband - Joe - who had already threatened to kill her when his JOB was to PROTECT her. The whole debacle resulted in a homocide/suicide.

Diana Coletto was well-loved. Joe Coletto had been very unjustly sent to the RPF and when he found out his wife had been ordered to divorce him, then made truly insane with the abusive RPF sleep deprivation and other tactics.

And... Joe was just around the corner, staying at a hotel at the time. Not like anyone tried real hard to find him, right?

But what was in Mark's (Marty's) head to do that? To make a big name for himself by catching Joe? He was supposed to protect her. The death threats were very real and he was well briefed.

He tried his best when it was too late, but too late is too late.


Would you trust your life to this guy when he has a chance to compromise it for the sake of publicity or power? Hell no. Has he changed since? I say, hell no, not much. Let's look at some of Marty's other "accomplishments":

He dragged David Mayo through court after court case and assisted to frame him. He attacked hunted down and spied on Pat and Annie Broeker, however many in between, until finally, the criminal acts of destroying dox involved in the Lisa MacPherson case.

Those are just Marty Rathbun's more well-known crimes. This isn't ancient history, either. Lisa died in 1995 and the court cases went on and on until they destroyed the Trust Fund, the family and was finally dismissed in 2002, and a family civil suit in 2004. And Lisa wasn't the only one whose life was destroyed. Bob Minton gave his money and his life to help her and the family. Thanks, Marty - you're just SUCH a nice guy.

These are criminal acts. Yet Indies turn a blind eye to them and look at MR as some sort of "leader"? Exactly how low are Indy standards to choose someone deeply involved in all of this as a leader?

Sorry for the rant, but fergodsakes, the Indies shouldn't see criminality as something to admire in a person and are WAY too stupid if they think MR is a changed man - he hasn't disclosed the details of any of this to the authorities to date.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

I'll tell you what NoName, why don't you ask a class XII auditor who knows that tech front to back, who audits outside the church, and an auditor that's been using that tech for the last 30 years whether it works or not.

Ask that class XII auditor whether they have helped people with it or not.

Ask that class XII auditor whether the people they audited with that tech got gains and wins with it or not.

OK?

Do you know any class XII auditors outside the church you can ask?

I'm supposing by your post you do know Cl XII's outside the Cof$.

Please ask all of them this and let Us know what the answer is;

1. Are all...or even any...of their completions on all 3 L's Exterior with Full Perception and able to maintain it?:confused2:

2. Can they prove that they are Exterior with Full Perception?:confused2:

Peace.

Face

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

5th Invader, most of what you say here is straight from MR's blog and not substantiated in any factual way. You need to dig deeper.

Though you are correct that DM doesn't follow all of L Ron's policies, nobody does, nobody ever has, nobody CAN - there are too many contradictions contained within and that makes it impossible. DM is following Flag Orders - he is a Sea Org member. That tek is ruthless and far worse than anything you will read in HCOBs or HCO PLs

I don't want to spend the time digging up refs for you. Veda and HH are better at it. Please research further for yourself and go beyond Marty's blog.

DM is seen by the "still ins" as the saviour of scn - who saved it after L Ron died, btw.

Exactly! Nobody CAN follow the policies.

Because there aren't any policies!

Per the inviolable Hubbard Law of Commotion, every policy is contradicted and negated. No policy therefore exists.

For something to qualify as a "policy" there would have to be an expectation that the "policy" was the solitary controlling way of acting, responding or addressing any situation within an organization.

If each policy has an equal and opposite policy, neither are policies.

Scientologists and Indies are utterly bamboozled and confuzled by not knowing about the Hubbard Law of Commotion. They only "know how to know" whether to pick the "YES" or "NO" version of policy that fits the problem they are trying to solve or anti-social behavior they are trying to rationalize.

Scientology is the only religion or philosophy that works 100% of the time--because they cheat 100% of the time by providing 2 guesses for each TRUE OR FALSE question on the test.

 

[omnom]

Scientology is the only religion or philosophy works 100% of the time--because they cheat 100% of the time by providing 2 guesses for each TRUE OR FALSE question on the test.

Holy shit, that totally makes sense!

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I'm still waiting for Marty (Mark) Rathbun to issue an obituary and apology to Diana Coletto for driving ...very...slowly...down the street to bring out her husband - Joe - who had already threatened to kill her when his JOB was to PROTECT her. The whole debacle resulted in a homocide/suicide.

Diana Coletto was well-loved. Joe Coletto had been very unjustly sent to the RPF and when he found out his wife had been ordered to divorce him, then made truly insane with the abusive RPF sleep deprivation and other tactics.

And... Joe was just around the corner, staying at a hotel at the time. Not like anyone tried real hard to find him, right?

But what was in Mark's (Marty's) head to do that? To make a big name for himself by catching Joe? He was supposed to protect her. The death threats were very real and he was well briefed.

He tried his best when it was too late, but too late is too late.


Would you trust your life to this guy when he has a chance to compromise it for the sake of publicity or power? Hell no. Has he changed since? I say, hell no, not much. Let's look at some of Marty's other "accomplishments":

He dragged David Mayo through court after court case and assisted to frame him. He attacked hunted down and spied on Pat and Annie Broeker, however many in between, until finally, the criminal acts of destroying dox involved in the Lisa MacPherson case.

Those are just Marty Rathbun's more well-known crimes. This isn't ancient history, either. Lisa died in 1995 and the court cases went on and on until they destroyed the Trust Fund, the family and was finally dismissed in 2002, and a family civil suit in 2004. And Lisa wasn't the only one whose life was destroyed. Bob Minton gave his money and his life to help her and the family. Thanks, Marty - you're just SUCH a nice guy.

These are criminal acts. Yet Indies turn a blind eye to them and look at MR as some sort of "leader"? Exactly how low are Indy standards to choose someone deeply involved in all of this as a leader?

Sorry for the rant, but fergodsakes, the Indies shouldn't see criminality as something to admire in a person and are WAY too stupid if they think MR is a changed man - he hasn't disclosed the details of any of this to the authorities to date.

Righteous Rant, sister!

I'm right by your side marching in this anti-war protest. The war Scientology has declared on truth and decency and homo sapiens itself. ("Hell no--we won't go!")

Scientologists and Indie counter-protesters are marching on the opposite side of the street chanting "Hell no--we won't blow!"

 

[Karen#1]

David Miscavige assumed power and stayed in power
BECAUSE

He runs Scientology inc as a "religious" franchise like the Coa Cola Company or Mcdonalds....

This short You Tube clip apples to Scientology Inc to the T​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa3wyaEe9vE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[5th Invader Force]

Exactly! Nobody CAN follow the policies.

Because there aren't any policies!

Per the inviolable Hubbard Law of Commotion, every policy is contradicted and negated. No policy therefore exists.

"Hubbard Law of Commotion"?

HH, what are you talking about?

You're joking right?

Where's that from?

 

[Gadfly]

I'm supposing by your post you do know Cl XII's outside the Cof$.

Please ask all of them this and let Us know what the answer is;

1. Are all...or even any...of their completions on all 3 L's Exterior with Full Perception and able to maintain it?:confused2:

2. Can they prove that they are Exterior with Full Perception?:confused2:

Peace.

Face

Damn Right!!!!!!

While there are some possible uses for Scientology tech as "therapy" (assists, handle losses, loosen up stuck attention on the past, etc.), I have NEVER seen it have any sort of spiritual enhancing effect on ANYBODY. I have NEVER seen it make anyone brighter and smarter either.

The dogma and indoctrination into BELIEFS seem to be the things that have the greatest impact - and THAT isn't so great. What is getting the "TA" is just like so many other religions that depend on FAITH. In fact, Scientology IS a "faith-based religion", even though it CLAIMS NOT to be based on "belief" at all. It is common to hear a Scientologist say, "I don't believe, I KNOW"! But, what that actually is, is FAITH and BELIEF pretending to be KNOWINGNESS.

Yes-sir-ee! You KNOW!!! With "certainty".

Yes, auditing can make some people "feel good", but that is NOT the same as "expansion in mental or spiritual abilities".

I see Scientology as a toxic mixture of "feel good" tied to SEVERE BELIEFS (that parade around as and pretend to be certainty, knowledge, and heightened awareness).

These people are SO GOOFY!

 

[omnom]

You're joking right?

5th, meet HH. He is a typical dilettante J/D superstar, and is hilarious. Also, the posts have little truth-nuggets buried within. Enjoy them with a fine red wine, or perhaps a cheap vodka and soda.

 

[Gadfly]

"Hubbard Law of Commotion"?

HH, what are you talking about?

You're joking right?

Where's that from?

Newton's Third Law of Motion:

For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action.

HH reprashed it to explain how in Scientology there are SO MANY contradictions built into policy, to the point where almost anything can be excused, because Hubbard says so somewhere.

Thus, The Hubbard Law of Co-Motion:

For every policy statement by Hubbard there is an equal and opposite policy statement.

For example, take Hubbard's policy on Personal Integrity. It sounds really nice, and it sure is a great idea to accept as true only what one observes to be true. Except that in Scientology, the way it is set up and run, also on exact LRH policy, one is NOT ALLOWED to do that if ones observations result in criticisms of Hubbard or Scientology.

See? Built in contradiction!

There are hundreds (or even thousands) of such contradictions built into Scientology.

 

[5th Invader Force]

While there are some possible uses for Scientology tech as "therapy" (assists, handle losses, loosen up stuck attention on the past, etc.), I have NEVER seen it have any sort of spiritual enhancing effect on ANYBODY. I have NEVER seen it make anyone brighter and smarter either.

Well, I have.

 

[5th Invader Force]

Newton's Third Law of Motion:

For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action.

HH reprashed it to explain how in Scientology there are SO MANY contradictions built into policy, to the point where almost anything can be excused, because Hubbard says so somewhere.

L. Ron Hubbard's polices on how to run the organization is very clear. I'm sorry, nothing personal, but I do not agree with what you are saying.

 

[5th Invader Force]

David Miscavige assumed power and stayed in power
BECAUSE

He runs Scientology inc as a "religious" franchise like the Coa Cola Company or Mcdonalds....

This short You Tube clip apples to Scientology Inc to the T​

Karen#1,

Do you feel that the way David Miscavige is currently running the church is LRH policy or off-policy?

Do you feel that the way David Miscavige is currently running the church of scientology is the same way L. Ron Hubbard use to run it?

 

[Karen#1]

Karen#1,

Do you feel that the way David Miscavige is currently running the church is LRH policy or off-policy?

Do you feel that the way David Miscavige is currently running the church of scientology is the same way L. Ron Hubbard use to run it?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

YEP!!! And Aint Veda Just Grand?!!!

Agreed, dude!

And a second thought occurred to me about Veda's having providing DOX.

Let's imagine for a moment that all of those dox were long-ago shredded by Hubbard and his assigns and NONE existed today.

And therefore, Veda could not post these rock-solid exhibits and evidence of Hubbard's malfeasance and lying.

In that case, when a Scientologist refused to accept the hard fact of Hubbard's lying, one might think: "Oh, I just wish to God that i had any of those early LRH letters and documents! Then the Scientologists could no longer deny it!"

That would have made sense.

But we DO have the dox and they still don't believe it!



CONCLUSION: I am reminded of a quote from a book by William Saroyan.......

"He knew the truth and was looking for something better."
​

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

"Hubbard Law of Commotion"?

HH, what are you talking about?

You're joking right?

Where's that from?

The Hubbard Law of Commotion is a gift humbly tendered to mankind.

Not only is it axiomatic scripture of the Church of Hoaxology, it is a self-evident truth. Read the link in your post. Have clay available.

Our Founder, Hell Ron Hoaxard, even wrote a song about it, dedicated to people who have applied the tech:

http://vimeo.com/5545170

THANK YOU FOR LISTING

Thank you for listing
I L&N just for you
But after session you may find
Wrong items you would argue.

I do not care what you believe
I don't give a damn for fact
If you will pay to go OT,
Then you I won't attack.

For acceptable truth is truth and if you then
Decide to reject my lies
That’s your concern not mine, my friend,
You'll have to deal with my spies.


​

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING

Thank you for listening
I write just for you
But others hearing this may find
Things they would argue.

I do not sing what I believe
I only give them fact
If they believe quite otherwise,
It still will have impact.

For truth is truth and if they then
Decide to live with lies
That’s their concern not mine, my friend,
They’re free to fantasize.