How did DM assume power?

[HelluvaHoax!]

L. Ron Hubbard's polices on how to run the organization is very clear. I'm sorry, nothing personal, but I do not agree with what you are saying.

Per policy, what is true for you is true.

Also, per policy, here is a routing form to see the ethics officer so he can share what is true for him.

 

[Stat]

The Hubbard Law of Commotion is a gift humbly tendered to mankind.

Not only is it axiomatic scripture of the Church of Hoaxology, it is a self-evident truth. Read the link in your post. Have clay available.

Our Founder, Hell Ron Hoaxard, even wrote a song about it, dedicated to people who have applied the tech:

http://vimeo.com/5545170

THANK YOU FOR LISTING

Thank you for listing
I L&N just for you
But after session you may find
Wrong items you would argue.

I do not care what you believe
I don't give a damn for fact
If you will pay to go OT,
Then you I won't attack.

For acceptable truth is truth and if you then
Decide to reject my lies
That’s your concern not mine, my friend,
You'll have to deal with my spies.


​

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING

Thank you for listening
I write just for you
But others hearing this may find
Things they would argue.

I do not sing what I believe
I only give them fact
If they believe quite otherwise,
It still will have impact.

For truth is truth and if they then
Decide to live with lies
That’s their concern not mine, my friend,
They’re free to fantasize.

One word. Brilliant. Also, L&N is a wrong premise entirely.

 

[Veda]

That is a picture of Gary Weber when he was in the GO. He has been out for years and is very anti-Scientology now. He is a good friend of mine and we would have lunch together and discuss the current state of affairs. Anyway for your info Gary is a good guy and not a Nazi.

I never suggested he was. He was using Scientology PR positioning tech at the time.

Here's an excellent article by Gary from the ESMB Home Page. The topic is addressed by him in the first paragraph:

http://exscn.net/content/view/78/52/1/1

 

[Veda]

Karen#1,

Do you feel that the way David Miscavige is currently running the church is LRH policy or off-policy?

Do you feel that the way David Miscavige is currently running the church of scientology is the same way L. Ron Hubbard use to run it?

I don't agree with most of what 5th Invader Force is saying, but he's being very upfront about what he believes, and he's not a troll.

Why don't you answer his few simple questions?

It might help him.

After all, you are a Class XII, and he very much respects Class XIIs.

Help the guy.

 

[Veda]

I'll tell you what NoName, why don't you ask a class XII auditor who knows that tech front to back, who audits outside the church, and an auditor that's been using that tech for the last 30 years whether it works or not.

Ask that class XII auditor whether they have helped people with it or not.

Ask that class XII auditor whether the people they audited with that tech got gains and wins with it or not.

OK?

Have you read what this Class XII has written?

Do you know any class XII auditors outside the church you can ask?

David Mayo was the Senior Case Supervisor International, Class XII, and L. Ron Hubbard's personal auditor. Here is an interview he did in August 1986 with author Russell Miller:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

And here's an article he wrote in 1991 on 'Clear', that appeared in both the Free Spirit and International Viewpoints magazines:

http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html

 

[NoName]

David Mayo was the Senior Case Supervisor International, Class XII, and L. Ron Hubbard's personal auditor. Here is an interview he did in August 1986 with author Russell Miller:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

And here's an article he wrote in 1991 on 'Clear', that appeared in both the Free Spirit and International Viewpoints magazines:

http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html

Can you easily find dox where Mayo talks about LRH's rock slams? I know I've seen it before but I don't have time to look right now. Still, it might help our new friend to know what the king of the Class XII's has to say on the matter........

 

[dianaclass8]

Gadfly, the articles in my blog are addressed to Scientologists who are searching for information or for scientologists who had just left.

I remember when I was newly outside, I stayed away from reading those who went into attacking LRH or the Tech in a harsh manner, I was just not simply ready.

I see no point of scaring peopple...LOL

I rather present them with the truth in an acceptable manner that is real to my readers, gently, and with documents as much as possible.

Then, they can come and read you here at ESMB and discuss the matter with you...LOL

Well, what something ACTUALLY IS, and what people think & believe this something to be are two very different things indeed.

They are NOT equal in any way.

But, what you wrote does not say or mention "what I believed at the time", or "what I thought back then" (as relevant qualifiers). It is a plain and clear statement of fact:

"Scientology’s purpose is to achieve higher spiritual and ethical levels."

Again, it says what it says. I am NOT reading anything into it either. And, again, maybe you didn't mean what you wrote. But, I can only see what is written on the page.

 

[dianaclass8]

Gadfly, thanks, I didn't feel you jumped down my throat, I am flat on things told to me by now...LOL. Gottabrain is a loving caring person. She knows me personally that is why she always come to my defense.

I m fully familiar with the negative aspects of Scn and LRH, thanks to people like you and others who tell it as it is on ESMB. And I have publicly announced that I am not an Indie or a Freezoner, nooooo...for we have different ethical and spiritual valuer.

Heck, I even announced that I am not a scientologist, just use whatever it works to help others.

However, coming back to the topic of this thread: Who helped DM? It is right on the article. And also DM was helped by those people who stayed despite the atrocities committed and who asissted him. He did not do it alone.

In truth, if I think about it for a second (BANG - there, just did it), the truth is that I really dont care and am not at all bothered by what ANYONE "believes and thinks", as long as they don't hurt anybody in the process of following those ideas and beliefs.

That goes for practicing FZers who train and audit others.

To make a point, it is often necessary to omit a great deal of related facts. I did that here, and I apologize PERSONALLY to DianaClass8.

My bad. I jumped down her throat, and it was unwarranted - all things considered with full context involved.

I was being a smart-ass.

My bad.

A loving and truly caring person, who is familiar with the negative aspects of Hubbard and the Church of Scientology, and who operates very FAR AWAY from the confines and influence of organized Scientology, can surely use some of the "tech" to help and assist others. Of course, THAT is not popular to say here.

But I get that THAT is very possibly what she does. And, THAT is okay with me. Actually, more than "okay", it is a positive thing.

I applaud people who go out of their way to provide real help and comfort to others - no matter WHAT sort of "tech" they pull out their little bag of tricks.

 

[Gadfly]

Gadfly, the articles in my blog are addressed to Scientologists who are searching for information or for scientologists who had just left.

I remember when I was newly outside, I stayed away from reading those who went into attacking LRH or the Tech in a harsh manner, I was just not simply ready.

I see no point of scaring peopple...LOL

I rather present them with the truth in an acceptable manner that is real to my readers, gently, and with documents as much as possible.

Then, they can come and read you here at ESMB and discuss the matter with you...LOL

I know.

Later on in the thread, I apologized to you for jumping down your throat (after reading Gottabrain's comment to me).

There is a specific public for what and how you discuss the information, and a need for what you present.

Again, I was being a smart-ass.

Within the full context, accurately and adequately differentiating about such things, being caring, and considering the gradient involved with "getting out", I find your stuff VERY USEFUL!

Peace.

Note: I was posting this as you were posting the post directly above.

 

[Lurker5]

I'm still waiting for Marty (Mark) Rathbun to issue an obituary and apology to Diana Coletto for driving ...very...slowly...down the street to bring out her husband - Joe - who had already threatened to kill her when his JOB was to PROTECT her. The whole debacle resulted in a homocide/suicide.

Diana Coletto was well-loved. Joe Coletto had been very unjustly sent to the RPF and when he found out his wife had been ordered to divorce him, then made truly insane with the abusive RPF sleep deprivation and other tactics.

And... Joe was just around the corner, staying at a hotel at the time. Not like anyone tried real hard to find him, right?

But what was in Mark's (Marty's) head to do that? To make a big name for himself by catching Joe? He was supposed to protect her. The death threats were very real and he was well briefed.

He tried his best when it was too late, but too late is too late.


Would you trust your life to this guy when he has a chance to compromise it for the sake of publicity or power? Hell no. Has he changed since? I say, hell no, not much. Let's look at some of Marty's other "accomplishments":

He dragged David Mayo through court after court case and assisted to frame him. He attacked hunted down and spied on Pat and Annie Broeker, however many in between, until finally, the criminal acts of destroying dox involved in the Lisa MacPherson case.

Those are just Marty Rathbun's more well-known crimes. This isn't ancient history, either. Lisa died in 1995 and the court cases went on and on until they destroyed the Trust Fund, the family and was finally dismissed in 2002, and a family civil suit in 2004. And Lisa wasn't the only one whose life was destroyed. Bob Minton gave his money and his life to help her and the family. Thanks, Marty - you're just SUCH a nice guy.

These are criminal acts. Yet Indies turn a blind eye to them and look at MR as some sort of "leader"? Exactly how low are Indy standards to choose someone deeply involved in all of this as a leader?

Sorry for the rant, but fergodsakes, the Indies shouldn't see criminality as something to admire in a person and are WAY too stupid if they think MR is a changed man - he hasn't disclosed the details of any of this to the authorities to date.

As far as I know, M has never apologized for anything to anyone. But isn't that the scno belief system? I don't think scnos feel responsible for any PERSON - or anything they do to another PERSON (or child). They only feel personal responsibility for THINGS, material things, MONEY - failures caused by them - but not to any person - only THINGS. They do not feel responsible for failing a person or people - or humanity. They take no responsibilty for the things they do to other people while under orders of scno or co$ or while following a scno belief/practice. And back it up with a culture of FEAR of disagreement.

Sound familiar? It should. Germany/Nazis/DeathCamps/GasChambers/MassMurder/GenocideWW2 . . .
For decades people asked HOW CAN SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN?

Well, now ya know. It's easy, once you take away a person's responsibilty for their actions towards other living beings/entities BECAUSE of a belief system or religious practice.

We ARE responsible for our actions, no matter what we believe - and we have a responsibiitly to other living entities, whether human, animal, vegetable - or not.
It is called humanity. We are held accountable to a higher authority - however you want to believe that to be.

IF we harm another, fail another, we are responsible, and owe something - back.
And an apology, as hard as it may be to give, is a good way to begin, even if the person/people don't accept it or forgive. They don't have to, but - IMHO - the perpetrator does owe an apology - at the very least - if not more. Sometimes ammends are necessary. Many here make ammends by helping others - and their acts against others were probably not as grievous as M's.

I have yet to hear a scno believer apologize for what they did to others while in the sway of the co$ or the beleif system of lrh . . . Anyone? Anyone? Ferris? Ferris Buehler?

When M wrote his book, and dedicated it to his wife, he had a perfect opportunity to apologize to all those he harmed while a true believing co$/scno. But that would be smearing lrh, wouldn''t it - and admitting he behaved less than human, was brainwashed and controllled, instead of a super homo-novi 'scno' with big balls and big personal power.

It is self-delusion - and it's grandest.



But lots of good folks are incapable of apologizing. It is a personality disorder - IMHO. And it is not limited to snco's - it is a very human trait.

None of us are exempt. It takes REAL courage to apologize.

 

[dianaclass8]

Lurker, M doesn't only has to apologize; that's not enough, there were atrocities committed where people lost their loved ones, their money, their houses and even their lives.
What needs to be done is come out clean and tell everything to the authorities that leads to arrests even of his own, so that everything is stopped and is finally over.

The condition of Liability requires that 'one deliver an effective blow to the enemy that one has been pretending to be part of, despite ***personal danger***.

No...apologies are not enough...not for me...no...never.

As far as I know, M has never apologized for anything to anyone. But isn't that the scno belief system? I don't think scnos feel responsible for any PERSON - or anything they do to another PERSON (or child). They only feel personal responsibility for THINGS, material things, MONEY - failures caused by them - but not to any person - only THINGS. They do not feel responsible for failing a person or people - or humanity. They take no responsibilty for the things they do to other people while under orders of scno or co$ or while following a scno belief/practice. And back it up with a culture of FEAR of disagreement.

Sound familiar? It should. Germany/Nazis/DeathCamps/GasChambers/MassMurder/GenocideWW2 . . .
For decades people asked HOW CAN SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN?

Well, now ya know. It's easy, once you take away a person's responsibilty for their actions towards other living beings/entities BECAUSE of a belief system or religious practice.

We ARE responsible for our actions, no matter what we believe - and we have a responsibiitly to other living entities, whether human, animal, vegetable - or not.
It is called humanity. We are held accountable to a higher authority - however you want to believe that to be.

IF we harm another, fail another, we are responsible, and owe something - back.
And an apology, as hard as it may be to give, is a good way to begin, even if the person/people don't accept it or forgive. They don't have to, but - IMHO - the perpetrator does owe an apology - at the very least - if not more. Sometimes ammends are necessary. Many here make ammends by helping others - and their acts against others were probably not as grievous as M's.

I have yet to hear a scno believer apologize for what they did to others while in the sway of the co$ or the beleif system of lrh . . . Anyone? Anyone? Ferris? Ferris Buehler?

When M wrote his book, and dedicated it to his wife, he had a perfect opportunity to apologize to all those he harmed while a true believing co$/scno. But that would be smearing lrh, wouldn''t it - and admitting he behaved less than human, was brainwashed and controllled, instead of a super homo-novi 'scno' with big balls and big personal power.

It is self-delusion - and it's grandest.



But lots of good folks are incapable of apologizing. It is a personality disorder - IMHO. And it is not limited to snco's - it is a very human trait.

None of us are exempt. It takes REAL courage to apologize.

 

[dianaclass8]

But you never read my article or even scanned through it...hahahaaa!:wink2:

I know.

Later on in the thread, I apologized to you for jumping down your throat (after reading Gottabrain's comment to me).

There is a specific public for what and how you discuss the information, and a need for what you present.

Again, I was being a smart-ass.

Within the full context, accurately and adequately differentiating about such things, being caring, and considering the gradient involved with "getting out", I find your stuff VERY USEFUL!

Peace.

Note: I was posting this as you were posting the post directly above.

 

[TG1]

So what is enough for you, Diana?

A lot of people on this board (and on other boards) "contributed to the motion" that caused all the losses you just named. Lives were lost. Families were lost. Fortunes were lost. Dreams were shattered.

What should they all do?

What is enough?

When do the beatings stop?

TG1

 

[dianaclass8]

I am not asking for beatings. All that I am asking is that the crimes, the illegal acitivities get uncovered and that arrests happen, that those who broke the law, go to jail where they belong.

That innocent people are not duped by those like DM and M&M and others like them.

I am just asking for justice. Is that too much to ask?

So what is enough for you, Diana?

A lot of people on this board (and on other boards) "contributed to the motion" that caused all the losses you just named. Lives were lost. Families were lost. Fortunes were lost. Dreams were shattered.

What should they all do?

What is enough?

When do the beatings stop?

TG1

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Oh, Marty "apologizes" here and there in his own way. He does it privately, confidentially and selectively to those folks that he thinks needs or wants create as an asset (use) for his Indy Scn Cult that's under development.

Marty ain't ever gonna let it all hang out Publicly. What comes out from him, and when it comes out from him, depends solely upon whether or not it's something he can use to his advantage or he's caught flat footed when something about him breaks elsewhere and he's gotta respond and try and spin it his way.


Face

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

When do the beatings stop?

TG1

The beatings will stop when the morale improves!

 

[Lurker5]

Lurker, M doesn't only has to apologize; that's not enough, there were atrocities committed where people lost their loved ones, their money, their houses and even their lives.
What needs to be done is come out clean and tell everything to the authorities that leads to arrests even of his own, so that everything is stopped and is finally over.

The condition of Liability requires that 'one deliver an effective blow to the enemy that one has been pretending to be part of, despite ***personal danger***.

No...apologies are not enough...not for me...no...never.

Oh, I agree - but he can't even apologize, which is the first step of taking responsibility. As long as he clings to scno, we are not going to see it. Well, I doubt we ever will, but who knows. Nothing, no one, is set in stone . . . Well, doesn't have to be set in stone . . .

Gees, I just don't think M will ever take the stone out of his heart . . . but I hope he does.

Edit add: If he ever does come out and apologize, I will have to apologize to him, for proving me wrong . . . God, I'd love to do that . . . I think. Might be hard, though . . .

 

[Gib]

David Mayo was the Senior Case Supervisor International, Class XII, and L. Ron Hubbard's personal auditor. Here is an interview he did in August 1986 with author Russell Miller:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

And here's an article he wrote in 1991 on 'Clear', that appeared in both the Free Spirit and International Viewpoints magazines:

http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html

Thanks Veda.

I had read that article a few months ago. But now after reading it again with a few more months of research and reading, I understand it.

when somebody here or like when Jason Beghe says it at the end of his 2 hour you tube talk, he says "there are no clears or OT's". Others here say it as well.

Mayo states:

"The truth appears to be that there are various stages of release, at each one of which you are clear-er than you were. A person experiencing the glee of insanity is clear-er than someone who is just completely unconscious. It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were "clear" at a certain point, and that they therefore had no reactive mind. However this assertion is a lie, and a very destructive one, one that denies case gain to a great many people and provides a too-convenient rabbit button for pc's, auditors and C/S's who are having trouble with the pc's case. The claim that case and ethics problems can be caused by being clear was:

1. Absurd on the face of it.
2. A declaration of open rabbitting season."

for me it has become Now I get it.

But I do have another question, what does Mayo mean by "rabbit button " and "rabbitting season"?
I do not know. :confused2:

 

[Gottabrain]

I am not asking for beatings. All that I am asking is that the crimes, the illegal acitivities get uncovered and that arrests happen, that those who broke the law, go to jail where they belong.

That innocent people are not duped by those like DM and M&M and others like them.

I am just asking for justice. Is that too much to ask?

Marty was trained into this secrecy from his early beginnings, when he was just an EPFer during the Coletto murder-suicide. That's why I keep bringing that up every now and then - in the hopes that Marty will have a look at this and at hisself and see that this is where and how his criminality began. And how it also needs to end.

Also, because of the coverup on the Diane Coletto murder, she never received even any sort of funeral with her scn friends, no obituary, nothing. The GO reported it as two local people who were not scns to keep it out of the papers and the police bought the story.

This is wrong, wrong wrong!! And this practice continued all those years and continues today.

Come on, Mark (Marty). Give Diane Colletto the respect of a decent, honest, proper obituary now. You were there and you were at least partially responsible for her death through negligence and being a wise-ass idiot. The police are not going to charge you, they're not going to hang you because you were such a greeny with scn and doing what you were told, covering it up. Let the case be re-opened. There is no statute of limitations on murder cases. You'll feel better, Mark (Marty), and those same people (who are mostly still IN Scn and the SO and still doing the same shit) will have to be charged - and so will COS for its policies that you followed.

ADDED: Andre Tabayoyan was there, too, and he is OUT. So Mark Rathbun doesn't necessarily have to deal with the police alone.

 

[5th Invader Force]

Lurker, M doesn't only has to apologize; that's not enough, there were atrocities committed where people lost their loved ones, their money, their houses and even their lives.
What needs to be done is come out clean and tell everything to the authorities that leads to arrests even of his own, so that everything is stopped and is finally over.

The condition of Liability requires that 'one deliver an effective blow to the enemy that one has been pretending to be part of, despite ***personal danger***.

No...apologies are not enough...not for me...no...never.

^^^^^^^^^^
This is right!

Like I stated earlier, taking the PR approach is good and it is having an effect but I don't feel it will be enough to change the situation regarding the COS and DM.

Those that are most responsible for the current situation, need to step up and do something to resolve and put an end to the situation, now.

"What needs to be done is come out clean and tell everything to the authorities that leads to arrests even of his own, so that everything is stopped and is finally over."

Right.

That's what real men would do.

Which would be for the greater good, even if they did have to do some time in jail.

No, apologizes are not good enough for me either, neither is this PR campaign of Marty's with the "Dave's a Mr. Poopy pants" month in and month out on his blog, which is not going to put an end to the situation.