How do people believe even the advertised claims?

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Saints and great lamas, sure. Catholicism and Buddhism don't promise everyone will become a saint or a boddhisattva. And even the legends about the saints and enlightened teachers attribute a handful of miracles to them in the courses of their lives, not stable superpowers they can use at will. Scientology really is an outlier in this respect.

Actually, the vedic scriptures do preach attainment of Nirvana which IS a godlike state.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Definitely could be wrong, but I thought Nirvana was a Buddhist concept, and Buddha was post-Vedic. Anyway, as far as I understand the Buddhist concept of Nirvana, it's really great, but it's not about having physical superpowers like exteriorization with accurate perception of the physical world, or telekinesis. I think maybe it does involve past life recall, though I'm not really sure about this.

In any case, Buddhism offers Nirvana as an ultimate goal that is expected to take most people many, many lifetimes to attain. It is not advertised as something anyone can achieve within one lifetime by applying any standard procedure like a 'workable tech'.
 
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Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Scientology is all abt Nirvana.That's where Hubbard got his ideas about native state and going completely OT to the point of being cause over and exterior to the MEST universe. That's all he was trying to do. Anyone who'd attained Nirvana would be completely powerful as a spiritual being operating outside the confines of the physical universe with all those limitations.

Further, Buddhism and Hinduism (and not just the old scriptures- I'm talking about new modern accounts, anecdotes, etc) are chock full of alleged incidents where some lama or advanced disciple or holy man would display awesome abilities.

The more I read about Buddhism, the more Scn I see in it. Hubbard wasn't just somewhat a little bit influenced by it - he seems to have really based Scn (particularly early/mid Scn) on it, with Buddhism being almost a template. I was blown away to read a book by Lama Surya Das that contained an exercise that could be done that was almost a dead ringer for a scientology "TR".

In Catholicism, people are encouraged to keep reaching for the divine so as to attain sainthood. Saints constantly have miracles attributed to them.

CofS spends a great deal of time in using OT abilities as a carrot in a way that other churches don't. But don't make the mistake of thinking that Scn is the only ideology that stresses being free of the body, miracles and powers. And if you talk to non CofS Scientologists who are operating outside the cultic milieu of CofS, you'd find interest in OT abilities but more emphasis as to what's BEHIND those abilities - which, I've noticed, is more what you'd find in other religions where it's presumed that man can ascend higher. Most critics won't admit to you that Scn is really about considerations (thoughts) and postulates (decisions) but it is. In the cult, that gets overshadowed and obliterated because everything's for the good of the cult. The cult is totalitarian and utterly self serving. The ideology is pressed into service to achieve those aims. But discussing Scn ideologically is another ball of wax.

That's why when I was involved in Scn (and I still value much of what I learned there and consider that I found much truth there- I just don't think it's the only thing out there.) the wowie-zowie stuff didn't faze me at all. I grew up in a Catholic home, my parents had several degrees and spoke several languages between them- our discussions were often about religion but in a more sophisticated way. My dad was an historian and when I threw that into the mix, I had an excellent frame of reference in religious history.

Why not ask yourself why one of the most well known and oft stated arguments/criticisms against Scn by a number of critics is that you can get that stuff elsewhere yet now in this thread, the stance seems to be, nah, you can't find that emphasis anywhere else? I'm a critic but I'm not one of those who accept certain criticisms of Scn while accepting ones that conflict with others. There are a lot of critics who do that. They are idiots.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
The stuff that actually works in Scientology, you can get elsewhere. The supernatural powers, which don't work, are not promised as normally expectable results in other religions. Citing the Catholic goal of holiness or the Buddhist goal of Nirvana, as proof that Catholicism and Buddhism advertise miraculous powers to their followers — this is really pushing it. Everyone is encouraged to strive for these goals, but there is enormous emphasis on how difficult they are, and it is made very clear that very, very few can expect to attain them in a lifetime. There is no 'saints committee' in any Catholic parish, and I'm pretty sure there is no 'boddhisattva committee' in any Buddhist monastery.

But this argument may be becoming a mere matter of words. You agree that the CofS uses OT abilities as a carrot in a way other religions don't. I agree that other religions are also about transcending the material world in some real and meaningful way, though not normally a way with direct, material consequences. Beyond this it may be that I think you are exaggerating the similarity of Scientology to other religions, and you may think I'm downplaying it. At this comparatively fine level of disagreement, I lack the time and the expertise to argue further with much gain for anyone.
 
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oakley73

Patron
re adverts and stuff

I think the internet is really winning the battle for information exposing CO$.. I remember 15 years ago when we protested in Ireland to free a victim.. and it was hard to keep it in the public eye and keep momentum if we had the internet now it would have been so much easier...

As regards people believing the adverts etc... well I think there is 'one born every minute'... I would well believe its getting way harder to get new recruits and keep them... but ya have to understand that its the vunerable and impressionable people they pray on... and people like that can be tricked much easier than somebody who's strong minded...

I see there is a bigger growth the publicity for alot of the CO$ front groups like Proformia etc... this in my view shows they are struggling with the CO$ as their main recruitment vechicle....so they are turning to other ideas to lure in people... and like Larry Anderson said he was doing courses for 6 months before he knew it was the CO$...

So i think education.. education and education is the key to dry up the CO$ new potential recruits...
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
The stuff that actually works in Scientology, you can get elsewhere.

And one could say vice versa. This now shifts the argument from claims re OT abilities and such to why do Scn. So that's an entirely different thing.


The supernatural powers, which don't work, are not promised as normally expectable results in other religions.

Certainly not what I've noticed. I've seen a lot of things touted in other religions, new age thought, psychic workshops, etc. But yes, certainly not in all other religions. But so what?


Citing the Catholic goal of holiness or the Buddhist goal of Nirvana, as proof that Catholicism and Buddhism advertise miraculous powers to their followers — this is really pushing it.

No, it isn't. Both religions advertise that man can be something more and that manifestations can be evinced. PARTICULARLY Buddhism. (Christians and other "people of the book" would rather people be good little sheep, for the most part). I've seen so many stories in Buddhism- recent ones, even- that were very much all about the wowie zowie stuff.


Everyone is encouraged to strive for these goals, but there is enormous emphasis on how difficult they are, and it is made very clear that very, very few can expect to attain them in a lifetime. There is no 'saints committee' in any Catholic parish, and I'm pretty sure there is no 'boddhisattva committee' in any Buddhist monastery.


Why mention committees? I was discussing Scn as ideology. You do know that there is a large contingent of Scn'ists outside the church of Scientology, right?

But this argument may be becoming a mere matter of words.

Most are.

You agree that the CofS uses OT abilities as a carrot in a way other religions don't.

Yes, I do. And some other less far flown claims- "Scientology can help you with that" is often used for all sorts of ruin finding and regging, not just for OT levels or attaining OT abilities. Of course it's a carrot/stick thing. It's a cult and to keep people on the hook, they have to make them feel there's a reason to stay and put up with all the bullshit.

I agree that other religions are also about transcending the material world in some real and meaningful way, though not normally a way with direct, material consequences. Beyond this it may be that I think you are exaggerating the similarity of Scientology to other religions, and you may think I'm downplaying it. At this comparatively fine level of disagreement, I lack the time and the expertise to argue further with much gain for anyone.

OT abilities (alleged, conceptually) are no different than anything that's been around for years. Try hanging out with some new age types and you'll see what I mean.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
As a 'stable datum', 'It's All The Same' is not only wrong, it's usually used by a Scientologist as deliberately misleading. Part of the 'Everybody Else Does It Too' excuse.

Likewise, comparison with other religions is deliberately misleading. Yes, Scientology is far from *unique*, but, there are very basic differences to most other spiritual paths; high among them being the purely unspiritual obsession with 'control' over 'MEST' and people.

Ron did attempt to assert a similarity (although, He also insisted on the *superiority* of Scn) but, it was sheer bullshit.

Zinj
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

As a 'stable datum', 'It's All The Same' is not only wrong, it's usually used by a Scientologist as deliberately misleading. Part of the 'Everybody Else Does It Too' excuse.Likewise, comparison with other religions is deliberately misleading. Yes, Scientology is far from *unique*, but, there are very basic differences to most other spiritual paths; high among them being the purely unspiritual obsession with 'control' over 'MEST' and people.Ron did attempt to assert a similarity (although, He also insisted on the *superiority* of Scn) but, it was sheer bullshit.
Zinj


Scientology is EVERYTHING to EVERYONE--a certainty held by all Scientologists everywhere.

If a non-Scientologist also claims this to be true, they are labeled an Anti Social Personality for having engaged in such suppressive generalities.
 

Carmel

Crusader
[/I]

Scientology is EVERYTHING to EVERYONE--a certainty held by all Scientologists everywhere.

If a non-Scientologist also claims this to be true, they are labeled an Anti Social Personality for having engaged in such suppressive generalities.
Hmm...yeah...quite bizarre...but spot on.
 
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