How do you explain past lives?

[Moonchild]

Past lives and ancestral memory.

A while ago (shortly after posting some stuff here about the reality of past lives) I was chatting with my father in his local pub. over a couple of pints of their excellent draught Guinness.

I felt motivated to steer the convo. around to his wartime years; obviously he'd spoken about all that a few times previously but never in great detail. So I gently pushed for a little more information and what came out was quite interesting.

I'd known that he'd served with the Royal Engineers in Egypt during WW2 but he went on to speak of other places, notably South Africa and France which he'd touched upon on the way home after the cessation of hostilities.

There's a lot more to this but for the sake of brevity, to get to the point, suffice to say many of the places he'd visited were places that held a certain fascination for me in childhood; some of these impressions linger to the present day.

I can't guarantee with absolute 100% certainty that the old man had never mentioned any of this stuff maybe decades ago and I'd simply forgotten it...believe me, if I gained nothing else from my time in Scn. it was an awareness of the inestimable capacity of the human mind for self-deception.

As it stands though, as far as I can tell it seems fair to say I almost have "memories" of places I've never actually been to and these "memories" are more real than anything I experienced in Scn. audting. Ah, you have it!

Scanning through this thread, the topic of "ancestral memory" doesn't seem to have been mentioned. The late Timothy Leary (for whom I nurture little affection) suggested that LSD could open the portal to this realm; I've heard it suggested that LSD can bring "past lives" (in the spiritual sense) into view too.

The proposition then (for anyone that's still awake) is that memory might exist as (loosely speaking) a cellular phenomenon; the putative mechanics of such being beyond my ability to comment on with any competence...maybe this idea might find resonance with "conscious entities" as mentioned elsewhere by Gomorrhan.

This doesn't necessarily disqualify the possibility of past lives in the spiritual sense, neither does it disqualify the notion of past lives as an invention of the mind to provide a paradigm, a fantasy that facilitates the release of emotional charge. There is the possibility that all three scenarios have validity....and any other that might be imagined; and then what if for example my father's or mother's past lives/ancestral memories come into play? Gets kinda complificated dunnit?

Mind you, it could explain the phenomenon of overlapping past lives; the apparency of running more than one lump of meat simultaneously.

Personally I suspect much of the controversy surrounding past lives stems from a desire to find a "one-shot" answer and the ensuing frustration when this proves unobtainable; the real truth may turn out to be even more bizarre than anything the Hubster could concoct.

 

[gomorrhan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/05/science/05brain.html?scp=4&sq=memory+location&st=nyt

 

[Moonchild]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/05/science/05brain.html?scp=4&sq=memory+location&st=nyt

Yes, thanks for this. Inch by inch eh? The truth will out eventually and perhaps sooner than we even dare hope for?

 

[gomorrhan]

I think it's a matter of time. And yes, not much more time. I spend a lot of time reading futurists like Kurzweil, Goertzel, and that japanese guy from Discovery Channel who seems to have picked up where Sagan left off.

 

[Attention Unit]

Think of it this way Joey and all: At this time a portion of us on earth are uncertain about wether or not we lived in past lives. The main thing has to do with remembering. A portion of us don't recall with any degree of certainty past lives. But some on earth do.
A portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty times we had in the womb. But some of us do.
A portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty our first days of life. But some of us do.
A portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty our first months or year of life. But some of us do.
And although this portion is getting smaller, a portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty our childhood years. But many of us may.
Etc., etc., etc., until...
A portion of us here on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty what happened yesterday. But most of us do.

Depending on our culture or the group that we are part of we may have accepted certain realities or "truths" whether or not we actually have a good degree of certainty on these. When I was part of the church of
Scientology I accepted and believed in past lives despite not remembering any of them with any degree of certainty for most of that membership.

Now there's that Scientology book Mission Into Time by where they supposedly went back and dug up ruins that were predicted would be there by L. Ron Hubbard from recalling his past lives and they were there.

But here is something interesting. How can we prove that yesterday happened? Our first reaction is an immediate of course it happened! And we know it happened! But that is based only on our certainty. We don't have to prove things that we are certain of. To actually prove it one would need to pull a mission into time caper and remember something about yesterday that could only be remembered if we were there yesterday and then go and verify that it is still so. But even that does not really prove that yesterday existed. The heaviest evidence is our certainty. Also in the tech dictionary can be found - Sanity is certainty.
Attention Unit

 

[gomorrhan]

Sanity is certainty of things that are.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

But here is something interesting. How can we prove that yesterday happened? Our first reaction is an immediate of course it happened! And we know it happened! But that is based only on our certainty. We don't have to prove things that we are certain of. To actually prove it one would need to pull a mission into time caper and remember something about yesterday that could only be remembered if we were there yesterday and then go and verify that it is still so. But even that does not really prove that yesterday existed. The heaviest evidence is our certainty. Also in the tech dictionary can be found - Sanity is certainty.
Attention Unit

You don't have to remember what happened yesterday: The past is a fiction whose sole purpose is to explain the anomalies of the present, at least as far as Douglas Adams is concerned.

 

[KnightVision]

Think of it this way Joey and all: At this time a portion of us on earth are uncertain about wether or not we lived in past lives. The main thing has to do with remembering. A portion of us don't recall with any degree of certainty past lives. But some on earth do.
A portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty times we had in the womb. But some of us do.
A portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty our first days of life. But some of us do.
A portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty our first months or year of life. But some of us do.
And although this portion is getting smaller, a portion of us on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty our childhood years. But many of us may.
Etc., etc., etc., until...
A portion of us here on earth do not recall with any degree of certainty what happened yesterday. But most of us do.

Depending on our culture or the group that we are part of we may have accepted certain realities or "truths" whether or not we actually have a good degree of certainty on these. When I was part of the church of
Scientology I accepted and believed in past lives despite not remembering any of them with any degree of certainty for most of that membership.

Now there's that Scientology book Mission Into Time by where they supposedly went back and dug up ruins that were predicted would be there by L. Ron Hubbard from recalling his past lives and they were there.

But here is something interesting. How can we prove that yesterday happened? Our first reaction is an immediate of course it happened! And we know it happened! But that is based only on our certainty. We don't have to prove things that we are certain of. To actually prove it one would need to pull a mission into time caper and remember something about yesterday that could only be remembered if we were there yesterday and then go and verify that it is still so. But even that does not really prove that yesterday existed. The heaviest evidence is our certainty. Also in the tech dictionary can be found - Sanity is certainty.
Attention Unit

OK, but how about this:

I had a party yesterday, 10 people attended, had a good time.

Today I called them all, they all were certain that they were at my house yesterday and enjoyed a party and remembered what we ate and who was present. All of us recalled the same part at the same time. So it's possible to verify the reality by multiple memories. In addition we have photos, and we have all these phone bill records of calls made, a market receipt for the food and drink purchased and consumed at the party.....

Now, the big difference between the recollection of that party at my house and every past life story that I've ever come across is major fail in the recollection process being verifiable. So until a past life memory can be verified by multiple participants with duplicating similarities... sorry people! Go ahead and call it whatever you like... but you don't KNOW. If people enjoy betraying their critical thinking process, and are so intent on doing so then HEY..... don't come complaining next time you fall prey to the mind warping illogic of a clever cult cause it's you who will have paved the way for yourself to be deluded.

Logic can encompass the idea that it 'may be possible', that controlled studies should be conducted over a 200 year span. But logic is by definition when over ruled by belief.... no longer logic and thus 'data' becomes irrelevant. So get ready to start navigating air flight by the 'earth is flat' doctrine, however I will not accompany you.

 

[degraded being]

You don't have to remember what happened yesterday: The past is a fiction whose sole purpose is to explain the anomalies of the present, at least as far as Douglas Adams is concerned.

How am I going to get home tonight?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Sanity is certainty of things that are.

How can you be sure?


Mark A. Baker

 

[KnightVision]

Whenever anybody can sufficiently explain their current life....

I give em an ear (but just one) concerning past life 'possibilities'..

 

[Mary]

If you take any set of circumstances and 'twist' them together with a few facts and lots of belief... you can 'create' anything you wish! Voila! Past lives... as many... as often... as you'd like. Just don't make the absurd statement that you can prove the existence of past lives; lest you find yourself brainwashing and thought reforming followers so that they'll never dare ask for proof... or anything logical of the sort....

I think you are right in what you say and it's important that we stay firmly on the path of logical reasoning and scientific evidence - says I, who is very prone to daydreaming and living in a fantasy world.

But, sometimes when I meet someone whom I should not know, I simply can't explain logically why I feel this way ... I hate poetry (and please accept apologies ‘cause I can't write it for toffee).

Where have you been my friend?
Have you forgotten me?
10,000 years or so since last we met,
Have you been wandered the face of this pretty blue planet for all this time?
Tell me what trails and stories did you weave?
What complex webs did cause such intrigue?
Perhaps many a simple life spent in peace?
So many possessions gained, now crumbled to long gone dust
Strings of countless identities: a lowly beggar; a wealthy merchant,
Sometimes a mother, a father, an artisan, a mighty lord, a woman of ill repute perhaps?
How many wives, husbands, sons and daughters did you love with all your heart only to have lost them all and wept such bitter tears?
Did you dream and build that strong bridge or perhaps that castle that still stands today?
What empires and kings did you serve for to gain honour and glory?
What royalties and medals were bestowed?
How many times did you swear you would never lead again or wear a crown?
What trials and tribulations, what tortures have they put you through?
And what became of your power and energy then?
Where have you been my friend?
Have you forgotten me?

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Where have YOU been my friend?

I think you are right in what you say and it's important that we stay firmly on the path of logical reasoning and scientific evidence - says I, who is very prone to daydreaming and living in a fantasy world.

But, sometimes when I meet someone whom I should not know, I simply can't explain logically why I feel this way ... I hate poetry (and please accept apologies ‘cause I can't write it for toffee).

Where have you been my friend?
Have you forgotten me?
10,000 years or so since last we met,
Have you been wandered the face of this pretty blue planet for all this time?
Tell me what trails and stories did you weave?
What complex webs did cause such intrigue?
Perhaps many a simple life spent in peace?
So many possessions gained, now crumbled to long gone dust
Strings of countless identities: a lowly beggar; a wealthy merchant,
Sometimes a mother, a father, an artisan, a mighty lord, a woman of ill repute perhaps?
How many wives, husbands, sons and daughters did you love with all your heart only to have lost them all and wept such bitter tears?
Did you dream and build that strong bridge or perhaps that castle that still stands today?
What empires and kings did you serve for to gain honour and glory?
What royalties and medals were bestowed?
How many times did you swear you would never lead again or wear a crown?
What trials and tribulations, what tortures have they put you through?
And what became of your power and energy then?
Where have you been my friend?
Have you forgotten me?

Mary, this speaks to me as powerfully as Walt Whitman's poetry treating the same experience, which is so well known to me and others.

Cant write for Toffee, huh? Could'a foooled me!

Well done, I say...

Roy/EP

 

[Mark A. Baker]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/05/science/05brain.html?scp=4&sq=memory+location&st=nyt

Quite an interesting article. Of course, the thrust of the argument is that the memories are encoded in the functioning of the neurons, and that the neuronal activity is the cause of the remembrance. Neither of these ideas are necessarily true, although both are requisite for maintaining a materialist argument.

Of particular note to me was the observation that "memories" are detectable by instrumentation before the being becomes consciously aware of them. Where have I seen that consideration expressed before?


Mark A. Baker

 

[gomorrhan]

That is of interest, Mark. I never denied it.

However, would the memory exist without the material substrate? That's where we diverge, I think. My answer is no.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

That is of interest, Mark. I never denied it.

However, would the memory exist without the material substrate? That's where we diverge, I think. My answer is no.

Yes, but on WHAT do you base that answer apart from a general unwillingness to consider the validity of independent spirituality? To say that contemporary physics is inadequate to explain wholly the phenomena of mind is putting it mildly.

In modern theoretical physics there exist significant logical loopholes which would allow for some form of informational interaction between hypothetical metaphysical "realities" and the prevalent physical one, of which you seem so fond.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

If the argument is that current memory is stored entirely in wetware, does that mean senility is what happens when you run out of RAM, and Alzheimers is when you get Parity Errors?

 

[Pixie]

I think you are right in what you say and it's important that we stay firmly on the path of logical reasoning and scientific evidence - says I, who is very prone to daydreaming and living in a fantasy world.

But, sometimes when I meet someone whom I should not know, I simply can't explain logically why I feel this way ... I hate poetry (and please accept apologies ‘cause I can't write it for toffee).

Where have you been my friend?
Have you forgotten me?
10,000 years or so since last we met,
Have you been wandered the face of this pretty blue planet for all this time?
Tell me what trails and stories did you weave?
What complex webs did cause such intrigue?
Perhaps many a simple life spent in peace?
So many possessions gained, now crumbled to long gone dust
Strings of countless identities: a lowly beggar; a wealthy merchant,
Sometimes a mother, a father, an artisan, a mighty lord, a woman of ill repute perhaps?
How many wives, husbands, sons and daughters did you love with all your heart only to have lost them all and wept such bitter tears?
Did you dream and build that strong bridge or perhaps that castle that still stands today?
What empires and kings did you serve for to gain honour and glory?
What royalties and medals were bestowed?
How many times did you swear you would never lead again or wear a crown?
What trials and tribulations, what tortures have they put you through?
And what became of your power and energy then?
Where have you been my friend?
Have you forgotten me?

Mary! That is soooo beautiful, and I understand this very well. Don't put yourself down because this is truly wonderful stuff.

 

[Pixie]

There is something very romantic about 'past lives' in a sense, and there's one thing I remember distinctly when I joined the cult and particularly when I spent a couple of years at Saint Hill but it seems that I kept looking at people and thinking, 'I know you, have we met before', there was something very familiar about a lot of the people I met there, some good and some not so good, but that is one thing that has always stuck with me, the 'familiarity' of many of the group. I'd just look into their eyes and just 'know' them. Now this could be something to do with the fact that at our core we are all one, but this hadn't happened to me anywhere else in life or since. However nowadays I do my best to stay in the present because really that's all there is.

 

[Thrak]

You know I've been thinking about this quite a bit a bit in part because of this thread and first of all I will say that I don't KNOW anything for sure and neither does anyone else. I mean here we are at the edge of an enormous galaxy in a universe that is beyond enormous and we've only known we were in a universe for about a hundred years. So what do you think we already know 90% of what there is to know? Hardly. That being said, to me, it comes down to this key question. Is matter energy space and time all there is or is there a spiritual force as well that is independent of these others? It's as simple as that. So, what occurred to me today was this. If you take evolution all the way back to the point of the simplest cells to that point where there were no cells and then there were, it would be in effect immaculate conception for life to appear without any other life form or "parent" present. And it would be the most miraculous miracle anybody had ever heard of. And so when I consider art, humor, music, poetry, desire, love, etc. and try to think that they are maybe only the byproducts of a chemical reaction I'm sorry but I just can't believe it. I do "believe" there is something else there but in no way can I prove it. It's like there was a climber on Everest who was so close to death others found him and left him for dead, but then he decided he was not ready to die and got up. And when he fell down he got up again and refused to die. Mind over matter, and he lost most of his hands, nose and ears but made it back. Only matter? Matter doesn't care. You could take this planet and smash it and it wouldn't care. Life is a fire that refuses to go out. Any other fire couldn't care less.