How many people went type III (ie. had a Psychotic Break) in your org?

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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

Wow - not surprised though.

I am certain Flag holds the highest ever stat of psychotic breaks - it was such a dark world!

(Otherwise why would they make you sign the Lisa Mcpherseon waiver to give up to your right to get medical help in case of psychiatric issue)

That shall ring a bell about the danger of the upper levels and advanced rundowns

If every exe who know stories like this tells so, we migh be overwhelmed soon.

I'd like people to tell it - so lurker get the idea these are not incidents - but normal routine in $cientology to drive people insane - it's bounded in the tech - mind manipulation with insane stuff - despite some $cientology practitionners promote it doesn't relate to $cientology.


$cientology:

We are please to welcome you
as a sain being
We discard you without any sorry
when you reach the insane degraded being status


Speed up your service delivery
Choose over the psychotic break menu before you come to flag


1) to be eaten alive by roaches
2) to run out of the room, in the streets, completely naked
3) to play in the room with your excrements
4) to handle the thetan in your mirror
5) to melt yourself into LRH (yurk)
6) scream at all the BT's infesting your body
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I am surprised Flag took on this pc. I've heard of public getting turned down for service because they were simply out-ethics or pts or had a suicide attempt or thoughts. And that is AFTER they fully paid up for services at Flag!

I think I had been told about it because the gossip was impressed by the miracles being performed from the introspection rundown or whatever teck was being used. I fail to be impressed by scientologists who thought they had the answer to everything, evidence proves otherwise.
 

Leland

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I had heard stories of a guy at flag on some kind of type three rundown, naked and flinging his own excrement around and being constantly watched. it always seemed odd that flag would try and deal with stuff it had no understanding of. The 'handlings' always seemed idiotic to me.

Anyone who mentioned being aware of disembodied thetans also got the secret international sign for 'bonkers' which I thought was a bit odd. I thought we were supposed to be aware of dead people.


WoW...that is very strange...

All of OT III thru 7 deals with BT....and the cult thinks you're crazy if you are aware of them. Sounds like a typical cult mind fuck....

Of course at the end of OT III.....PCs think they are done with "body thetans." It is not until OT 4 that they find out there are more. And I suppose it is the same for OT 4...they must think that is the end.....until they do the next level. Cult lies....and dangles the carrot...
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

Now that I think about this, LRH had to have known that the tech could spin someone in. First he made a lot of effort to screen out any illegal pcs or those with psych histories. But then he comes up with the handlings for people who spin-in that weren't illegal pcs.

He said Self Analysis could make someone crazy (in the Introduction).

Why come up with the remedy like the Introspection rundown unless he knew someone could freak out.

Why come up with the PTS rundown that handles a type III?
 
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La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

Now that I think about this, LRH had to have known that the tech could spin someone in. First he made a lot of effort to screen out any illegal pcs or those with psych histories. But then he comes up with the handlings for people who spin-in that weren't illegal pcs.

He said Self Analysis could make someone crazy (in the Introduction).

Why come up with the remedy like the Introspection rundown unless he knew someone could freak out.

Why come up with the PTS rundown that handles a type III?

Do you know anyone who successfully changed their 'type 3ness' with a PTS rundown?
 

Sindy

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I have read about the many people on OT VII and OT VIII who have gone totally insane. When I was on the ship doing a course, I became friends with many who were there to complete OT VIII and many were in rough shape -- nervous wrecks. I couldn't understand it, made note of it and added it to the many things that led to my leaving.

What do you think is the mechanism within the mind that makes this happen? What would be the psychiatric diagnosis? Do you think that after this mental breakdown, that any of these people could be helped by psychiatry? Could meds help? What do you think?
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

Do you know anyone who successfully changed their 'type 3ness' with a PTS rundown?

Good point. No, because the handlings that were taken were not completed. It was extremely difficult to get cooperation from the pc who was going crazy. Usually they ended up leaving and could not be gotten back into the org, which was fine and welcomed by the tech staff!

The cure was getting away from Scn. I have seen people become okay after they were left alone and not by Scn rundowns.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I have read about the many people on OT VII and OT VIII who have gone totally insane. When I was on the ship doing a course, I became friends with many who were there to complete OT VIII and many were in rough shape -- nervous wrecks. I couldn't understand it, made note of it and added it to the many things that led to my leaving.

What do you think is the mechanism within the mind that makes this happen? What would be the psychiatric diagnosis? Do you think that after this mental breakdown, that any of these people could be helped by psychs? Could meds help? What do you think?

People are different, the one grade chart for everyone idea is crazy to start with. Someone might be pushed over the edge simply by sleep deprivation, for others the continuous harassments of seniors, or post reg stress, living with unreal debts would do it blaming your awful life on an SP who was actually a loving mother could do it. Not being allowed to get a real diagnosis could do damage. Being asked questions that stir up imagined demons and fixating on these non existent beings could well send anyone nuts, BTs anyone?
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

People are different, the one grade chart for everyone idea is crazy to start with. Someone might be pushed over the edge simply by sleep deprivation, for others the continuous harassments of seniors, or post reg stress, living with unreal debts would do it blaming your awful life on an SP who was actually a loving mother could do it. Not being allowed to get a real diagnosis could do damage. Being asked questions that stir up imagined demons and fixating on these non existent beings could well send anyone nuts, BTs anyone?

This brings up a good point. Scn always give you the wrong whys and you can never solve the problem until you get the correct answer.

Isn't out-lists a key thing to handle in Scn? Why would Scn purposely put them there?
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

This brings up a good point. Scn always give you the wrong whys and you can never solve the problem until you get the correct answer.

Isn't out-lists a key thing to handle in Scn? Why would Scn purposely put them there?

Inval and eval are signs of suppression, they are also what scn dishes out most. Flag makes a lot of money by correcting lower org wrong items after going through the files and charging plenty for it.
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I have read about the many people on OT VII and OT VIII who have gone totally insane. When I was on the ship doing a course, I became friends with many who were there to complete OT VIII and many were in rough shape -- nervous wrecks. I couldn't understand it, made note of it and added it to the many things that led to my leaving.

What do you think is the mechanism within the mind that makes this happen? What would be the psychiatric diagnosis? Do you think that after this mental breakdown, that any of these people could be helped by psychiatry? Could meds help? What do you think?

Can anyone tech trained answer this?

Any ex-C/Ses out there can give an estimate of how many people went type III in their org? I'm really curious if our org was a really bad exception.
 

Sindy

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

People are different, the one grade chart for everyone idea is crazy to start with. Someone might be pushed over the edge simply by sleep deprivation, for others the continuous harassments of seniors, or post reg stress, living with unreal debts would do it blaming your awful life on an SP who was actually a loving mother could do it. Not being allowed to get a real diagnosis could do damage. Being asked questions that stir up imagined demons and fixating on these non existent beings could well send anyone nuts, BTs anyone?

Right, for sure. Imagine completing OT8 after all the struggle and massive amounts of money to get there only to find out that you have no super powers, are not in a state of bliss or serenity of beingness and you still have lots of problems (mostly brought on by the cult grabbing all of your hard earned resources and controlling your every move and thought).

Because these people aren't allowed to speak with each other, then they don't get to really find out that they're not the only ones who feel this way and so they introvert and try to find the "why" or "who". Deep down there must be thoughts of regret or doubt that they must continue to bat away. How would they explain this to their friends and family who are now looking to them to be the great example of Hubbard's life work? That's a lot of pressure.

There are those who are experiencing denial and slight depression to those who have crossed the Rubicon into complete, delusional insanity, fearing others are trying to kill them and hearing and imaging demons all around them. Some turn violent.

Someone like that, as far as I can tell, would be given the psychiatric diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. I wonder if a person brought to that brink could be cured by psychiatry and medications. I would imagine that people like this would be surrounded by Scientologists who would not allow that to happen but the number that have gotten into this state is absolutely tragic.

The OT levels are dangerous -- really dangerous.
 
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AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

Probably a good idea to mention this matter, for reference.

Church of Scientology denies holding woman in isolation
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 25/02/2013
Reporter: Steve Cannane
The Church Of Scientology in Sydney has been accused of holding a young Taiwanese woman hostage after she suffered a mental breakdown. The Church of Scientology denies the allegations.
Video and transcript here:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3698162.htm
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

Right, for sure. Imagine completing OT8 after all the struggle and massive amounts of money to get there only to find out that you have no super powers, are not in a state of bliss or serenity of beingness and you still have lots of problems (mostly brought on by the cult grabbing all of your hard earned resources and controlling your every move and thought).

Because these people aren't allowed to speak with each other, then they don't get to really find out that they're not the only ones who feel this way and so they introvert and try to find the "why" or "who". Deep down there must be thoughts of regret or doubt that they must continue to bat away. How would they explain this to their friends and family who are now looking to them to be the great example of Hubbard's life work? That's a lot of pressure.

There are those who are experiencing denial and slight depression to those who have crossed the rubicon into complete, delusional insanity, fearing others are trying to kill them and hearing and imaging demons all around them. Some turn violent.

Someone like that, as far as I can tell, would be given the psychiatric diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. I wonder if a person brought to that brink could be cured by psychiatry and medications. I would imagine that people like this would be surrounded by Scientologists who would not allow that to happen but the number that have gotten into this state is absolutely tragic.

The OT levels are dangerous -- really dangerous.

I'm sure the right environment, ie far away from an Org and reges or teck and kwol, and medication would help. Maybe light occupational therapy, light craft work could help. Calm music, plenty of sleep, good food and walks in the countryside with a loving dog could help. Not being allowed to talk and being guarded like a criminal and being force fed vitamins by someone lacking humanity would not help.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I have read about the many people on OT VII and OT VIII who have gone totally insane. When I was on the ship doing a course, I became friends with many who were there to complete OT VIII and many were in rough shape -- nervous wrecks. I couldn't understand it, made note of it and added it to the many things that led to my leaving.

What do you think is the mechanism within the mind that makes this happen?
What would be the psychiatric diagnosis? Do you think that after this mental breakdown, that any of these people could be helped by psychiatry? Could meds help? What do you think?

Sindy,


We had a complete discussion about this with people who came home for Christmas. We did a review of the Oatess and their shape in our org. Very sad.

Anyway, I also had this queston in my mind when I first saw the upper Oatee levels which I didn't do.

Here are raw thoughts about it - sorry it's not very much concise.:unsure:

I read the Oatee 7 and 8 materials and was like this :omg:

Then, I ask myself how can smart and wise peope buy into that crap ??? Me would ran fast....

Nop...not that easy!

I saw a video Tory made about this issue - the case gains and wins on Oatee 8. It answered part of my question.

All materials are confidentials, so nobody can discuss it - the only thing you know about it is that it's wonderfull - it changes life - after all it's truth revealed. This is what you have been told when Oatees come back from the Ship.

So, despite you feel like that when reading the materials :omg: , you assume everything go fine when doing the level.

Step no 1 - dissonance cognitive live
step no 2 - forbidden to discuss the issue
step no 3 - group Glee - the oatee tells his/Her win, wich is mainly ''wow..it's wow''
every people applaude and acknowledge - so the wins we don't know anything about are made real...

Suppose you are half done, bad indicators, you make yourself wrong as everyone else got great wins - It cost a lot of money - it's mandatory you complete it and that you can come back home...

step 4 - an agreement on a group lie

Can you easily admit you have been conned in a mindfuck retard UFO cult leaded by a narcissisc sociopath and it cost you hundreds of thousands of $$$$$ plus decades ????

All your family is in the cult - you recruited all of them :unsure:

Okay --stop this ''case on post'' thinking ... let things settle down...

What you need to do is to attest and get you back home without any more sec checks or handlings - enough is enough

Shut your mouth = survive! Act like everything is fine = survive

So you come back and everybody can observe your bad indicators - People in the org say you have ethics problems. you remember ??? when you don't have case gain or loose it is your faulty ethics ???

Statu quo is not an option


Some get deeply into the cognitive dissonance to make sens of it - some disappear silently, some are not fine - some seems to believe they were told the truth of the universe....:confused2:

I've seen several scientologists who behave like retard in the cult and resume back to normal behavior when out of the cult. I guess some people may think that of me as I also have said and done things I am not proud of :unsure:

My conclusion is that $cientology, truly induces, soon or later, a mental illness that can , in the majority of cases, be healed by taking the person out of the mind control environment. It's a matter of connecting back with reality and our own spirituality - true spirituality and freedom. Good normal environment with proper sleep an food, peace and harmony will do the job unless the person is having a real mental illness which will be address with medical treatment.

The mind return to normal when not subject to such constant mind manipulation, unless the mental is ill. A psychotic break, induced with $cientology, will resume when the person is taken out of the pressure , because the psyche or brain is not faulty - the cult pressure hit the switch.
The mental breakdown is a protectice mecanism when it's too much for the mind and the brain. Some people, as seen here sometimes, did need ptsd therapy as they left with traumatic sequels.

Did people observed how wins , in scientology, are evanescents :unsure: unless you are under constant handling and correction ????

It doen't work at all unless to succed in making people believe it works!:confused2:

Why some people here, despite proofs and LRH own words prooving he was a liar, narcissist, sociopath, manipulator, greed, cruel, psychotic still hold him for a religious leader or sort of genius who invented a working tech :duh: Can't explain it otherwise than with cognitive dissonance
Some people leave the cult after decades and keep staying ''borderline'' personnalities. I guess they would need cognitive behavioral therapy wich will help them to do a clean up into their wrong cult thinking. Some other do the tough work by themselve, with courage, meditations, reading, or other introspective practice. The cult reshape our personnality as paranoid, arrogant, homo novos planet savior!

I have great admiration for all Oatess and Auditors\CSes who have done the highest steps for decades within the cult and found the courage to wake up and leave - despite a lifetime of time and $$$ devoted in $cientology!:hattip:

That would be interesting to ask them what was their reaction on Oatee levels - how they felt about doing it! How many have been on the edge ????
 
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renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I know that some of the staff and public became cowed or meek after being threatened all the time with ethics actions, comm-evs, or declares.

It makes the environment threatening and could make one paranoid of the next kr being written on you and the crap you need to take on your next 6 month check. The public on OT 7 were super careful not to put a wrong foot forward, always on guard. That could drive anyone nuts.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

Can anyone tech trained answer this?

Any ex-C/Ses out there can give an estimate of how many people went type III in their org? I'm really curious if our org was a really bad exception.

bump:thumbsup:
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I have read about the many people on OT VII and OT VIII who have gone totally insane. When I was on the ship doing a course, I became friends with many who were there to complete OT VIII and many were in rough shape -- nervous wrecks. I couldn't understand it, made note of it and added it to the many things that led to my leaving.

What do you think is the mechanism within the mind that makes this happen? What would be the psychiatric diagnosis? Do you think that after this mental breakdown, that any of these people could be helped by psychiatry? Could meds help? What do you think?

I do think Psychiatric treatment and meds could help - the problem would be getting the person who went type 3 to agree to it and not to react to the "bogeyman" programming.

I have personally known two type threes who were "routed out" after going type 3 on OT3. Neither recovered and remained for the rest of their lives on the line between utterly insane and barely holding on the rest of the time. I mentioned that point about getting them to agree to psychiatric intervention being the biggest barrier - and in these two cases both people (they were both women) were taken to psychiatric hospitals when they went over the edge, they were treated with fairly heavy drug interventions and in one case restraints to stop the person harming themself. When they had calmed down and recovered enough they were released but would, of course, never continue to take their meds - with the active encouragement of their scientology families.

As to why people go psychotic on upper levels - well i have my theories about it.

People who make it to the upper levels are the most gullible of Scientologists (similar to the idea that the most gullible SO members are the ones who ended up in Int Management). In order to make it onto the OT levels one has to have invested an enormous amount of time and a LOT of money. They are incredibly vested in the idea that theY MUST be successful - they must show the people around them that they are indeed "worthy" and "upstat" and they have to prove to themselves that they have not made an awful mistake.

And now they are going to audit themselves endlessly. So not only are they responsible for their answers they are responsible for their auditing.

And they are ALWAYS at fault.

And if they forget that there are the endless sec checks on 7.

I think the vast majority of people who get onto 7 and 8 are severely damaged by what they have been through.

The sad part is that none of us can go back to what we were BEFORE we encountered this crap.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I have read about the many people on OT VII and OT VIII who have gone totally insane. When I was on the ship doing a course, I became friends with many who were there to complete OT VIII and many were in rough shape -- nervous wrecks. I couldn't understand it, made note of it and added it to the many things that led to my leaving.

What do you think is the mechanism within the mind that makes this happen? What would be the psychiatric diagnosis? Do you think that after this mental breakdown, that any of these people could be helped by psychiatry? Could meds help? What do you think?


I think at its core, Scientology is essentially contrary to the nature and essence of human beings.

Amongst Hubbard's ten million words, datums and other esoterica there is one basic assertion--that the PC is a degraded being. That the PC was once (trillions of years ago) an enlightened supernatural being.

Therefore, Scientology indoctrination demands acceptance of the mythology of the horrid dwindling spiral condition that the PC is supposed to accept that they are now in. And there is relentless pressure on the PC reclaim their lost majesty by ascending the "Bridge".

The reason Scientologists so often break down mentally is that they are constantly being ordered and commanded to morph out of their species (homo sapiens) into a more evolved state (homo novus). Because that is an impossible feat, Scientologists go quite mad in the good faith process of trying.

To make it even simpler to understand, I think it is necessary to remove this equation entirely from the booby-trap laden "tech" or self-improvement techniques. Let's use a parallel to get clarity:
* Put a chimpanzee into a room.
* Audit them daily, train them daily.
* Constantly brief them in lectures about their original state (human) and how they became a monkey because of galactic catastrophes that happened hundreds of millions of years ago.
* Reward the chimp when they successfully mimic the behavior of their human caretakers.
* Punish the chimp each and every time they do not successfully ascend above their lowly simian state to become a homo sapiens.
* If the chimps do not begin losing their profuse body hair and speaking intelligibly and reading, send them to ethics because the tech is not working.
* If the chimp complains or refuses to continue the transformational program to make them human, declare them a SC (Suppressive Chimp) and kick them out.​


After a little bit of this treatment, the chimpanzee will begin to feel and act psychotic. Guaranteed you'll have one psychotic chimp if you keep "salvaging" that poor little monkey.

Welcome to Scientology.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Re: How many people went type III in your org?

I have read about the many people on OT VII and OT VIII who have gone totally insane. When I was on the ship doing a course, I became friends with many who were there to complete OT VIII and many were in rough shape -- nervous wrecks. I couldn't understand it, made note of it and added it to the many things that led to my leaving.

What do you think is the mechanism within the mind that makes this happen? What would be the psychiatric diagnosis? Do you think that after this mental breakdown, that any of these people could be helped by psychiatry? Could meds help? What do you think?

Nervous wrecks. You are describing Acute Stress Disorder. Anxiety can intensify and become very consuming, it can grow from specific fears to more and more generalized ones until one has a neurotic condition, or a psychotic break that can even trigger a schizophrenic condition. Schizophrenia itself is a sort of mental protective mechanism. But here's some info on Acute Stress Disorder:

Acute Stress Disorder is characterized by the development of severe anxiety, dissociative, and other symptoms that occurs within one month after exposure to an extreme traumatic stressor (e.g., witnessing a death or serious accident). As a response to the traumatic event, the individual develops dissociative symptoms. Individuals with Acute Stress Disorder have a decrease in emotional responsiveness, often finding it difficult or impossible to experience pleasure in previously enjoyable activities, and frequently feel guilty about pursuing usual life tasks.

A person with Acute Stress Disorder may experience difficulty concentrating, feel detached from their bodies, experience the world as unreal or dreamlike, or have increasing difficulty recalling specific details of the traumatic event (dissociative amnesia).


In addition, at least one symptom from each of the symptom clusters required for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder is present. First, the traumatic event is persistently reexperienced (e.g., recurrent recollections, images, thoughts, dreams, illusions, flashback episodes, a sense of reliving the event, or distress on exposure to reminders of the event). Second, reminders of the trauma (e.g., places, people, activities) are avoided. Finally, hyperarousal in response to stimuli reminiscent of the trauma is present (e.g., difficulty sleeping, irritability, poor concentration, hypervigilance, an exaggerated startle response, and motor restlessness).


Specific Symptoms of Acute Stress Disorder:

Acute stress disorder is most often diagnosed when an individual has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following were present:


  • The person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with (e.g., can include learning of) an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others
  • Though not required, the person’s response is likely to involve intense fear, helplessness, or horror
Either while experiencing or after experiencing the distressing event, the individual has 3 or more of the following dissociative symptoms:

  • A subjective sense of numbing, detachment, or absence of emotional responsiveness
  • A reduction in awareness of his or her surroundings (e.g., “being in a daze”)
  • Derealization
  • Depersonalization
  • Dissociative amnesia (i.e., inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma)
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/acute-stress-disorder-symptoms/
 
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