How many people went type III (ie. had a Psychotic Break) in your org?

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Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Threads meander. I took up Bird's comments about overboarding because, I, like a few others, thought it worth commenting upon. This thread had more bends than the nile by the time I got to it.

My comment about Bird was a response to the premise (also posted) that he was furthering OSA's aims. That, too, was something I was desirous of taking up.
 
Claire, this has nothing to do with CB liking Hubbard or the tek, or whether we should feel sorry for him or anything like that.

CB derails threads. He posts heaps of nonsense on the important threads and enjoys doing so. What he posted was babble, memories - nothing about a psychotic break. Whether he works for COS or not is not the point. He is doing exactly what an OSA troll would do - diverting attention from the crimes of the Church of Scientology and the damage and people hurt. He does this every chance he can and does it every day he posts, which is nearly every day.

I do not see any reason why forum rules and even manners or basic etiquette should not apply to him the same as everyone else and don't appreciate you supporting his derails.

You also went off topic on this, which is what got CB going. Please do not continue this conversation on this thread. I know you understand the importance of this thread and exposing these crimes.

because this is NOT the anti-scientologist message board

it is the EX scientologist message board

antiscientology websites are available

and they're boring and attract only cranks

you can post anything here that can be posted there and get a larger audience because many of our lurkers actually like to read the HIGHLY INTELLIGENT, POETIC, HONEST and RATIONAL!!! writings of a crazy old hippie
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ex-ED of an ANZO Cl V org, addicted to OxyContin. This was maybe 3 years ago.

Wound up in a NarCONon, had attempted suicide after a breakdown. I think the breakdown happened at NN Melbourne.

Of course the "help" she was given didn't do a damn thing to really help her out.

Helping her out of the cult was the only thing that would ever help her - I dunno what's happened to her after all of that but I hope she was able to get some real professional help.

Then there was the OSA ANZO crew member who ended up on the Pollards' farm after a breakdown - what happened to her? This was around the turn of the century.

I'm sure there is a hell of a lot more whose names and tragedies are still buried.

We'll uncover them and expose their stories so

FUCK YOU, OSA !!!
 

Happy Days

Silver Meritorious Patron
Ex-ED of an ANZO Cl V org, addicted to OxyContin. This was maybe 3 years ago.

Wound up in a NarCONon, had attempted suicide after a breakdown. I think the breakdown happened at NN Melbourne.

Of course the "help" she was given didn't do a damn thing to really help her out.

Helping her out of the cult was the only thing that would ever help her - I dunno what's happened to her after all of that but I hope she was able to get some real professional help.

Then there was the OSA ANZO crew member who ended up on the Pollards' farm after a breakdown - what happened to her? This was around the turn of the century.

I'm sure there is a hell of a lot more whose names and tragedies are still buried.

We'll uncover them and expose their stories so

FUCK YOU, OSA !!!

Hi Scoots

I helped on Pollard's farm on two separate Type 3 cases in early 21st century, the incidences were 12 months apart. It's a pretty confronting situation and very poorly handle by the cult, it was kinda like out of sight out of mind, the cult palmed the responsibility off to good people like Ron P to handle. Not one of us helpers were trained in dealing with these types of cases. I had just completed Pro Trs and Upper Indocs; we were told to use muzzled TR's to avoid further restimulation; we prepared meals, and kept watch and security. However, before I arrived to help I was told that the lady had escaped and was running down the road naked and a search party had to go find her before police were alerted and brought undue attention (well in hindsight, it should have been due attention) to Ron P's farm.

No professional help was sought for these two people. The cases were CS'ed from Sydney with light Objective processing; but shit when I first went to the farm the then helpers were being totally amused and were, what appeared to me, being entertained by her state, she was naked and locked up like a caged animal. Well I put a stop to that inhumane behaviour immediately, and gave the woman some dignity and respect. Those helpers were gone within a day, and I put some organise and structure in and had a set routine so we could look after the woman with love and respect, she knew and she appreciated it. This did assist her in her recover, to a state where she could leave the farm.

Bit more info - The two cases were very similar. I know that one young lady was virtually abducted from her home or off the street, she made quite a commotion, she was not SO or staff and taken to the Pollard's. The other lady was a trained auditor and CS and I'm pretty sure was on staff at the time, I know their names but for the sake of the ladies privacy I will not state who they are.

The whole situation was f*cked, Fay P hated having them and us for that matter there, understandably, it did at time create quite a scene and yes the police were called by neighbours, visitors were restricted etc.

And that is Scientology, it destroys and breaks people to the point of losing their minds. Every day out of the cult for me is a blessing, nothing compares to being in there .... nothing.
 
Hi Scoots

I helped on Pollard's farm on two separate Type 3 cases in early 21st century, the incidences were 12 months apart. It's a pretty confronting situation and very poorly handle by the cult, it was kinda like out of sight out of mind, the cult palmed the responsibility off to good people like Ron P to handle. Not one of us helpers were trained in dealing with these types of cases. I had just completed Pro Trs and Upper Indocs; we were told to use muzzled TR's to avoid further restimulation; we prepared meals, and kept watch and security. However, before I arrived to help I was told that the lady had escaped and was running down the road naked and a search party had to go find her before police were alerted and brought undue attention (well in hindsight, it should have been due attention) to Ron P's farm.

No professional help was sought for these two people. The cases were CS'ed from Sydney with light Objective processing; but shit when I first went to the farm the then helpers were being totally amused and were, what appeared to me, being entertained by her state, she was naked and locked up like a caged animal. Well I put a stop to that inhumane behaviour immediately, and gave the woman some dignity and respect. Those helpers were gone within a day, and I put some organise and structure in and had a set routine so we could look after the woman with love and respect, she knew and she appreciated it. This did assist her in her recover, to a state where she could leave the farm.

Bit more info - The two cases were very similar. I know that one young lady was virtually abducted from her home or off the street, she made quite a commotion, she was not SO or staff and taken to the Pollard's. The other lady was a trained auditor and CS and I'm pretty sure was on staff at the time, I know their names but for the sake of the ladies privacy I will not state who they are.

The whole situation was f*cked, Fay P hated having them and us for that matter there, understandably, it did at time create quite a scene and yes the police were called by neighbours, visitors were restricted etc.

And that is Scientology, it destroys and breaks people to the point of losing their minds. Every day out of the cult for me is a blessing, nothing compares to being in there .... nothing.

simple 2WC can work wonders

any time a person who has been mostly "stable" and "normal" in life goes into a major debilitating psychological condition they should be able return...
 

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
"but shit when I first went to the farm the then helpers were being totally amused and were, what appeared to me, being entertained by her state, she was naked and locked up like a caged animal."

This is awful, just awful.

Please, please continue to expose this type of abuse on this thread and anywhere else you can. In my opinion, the cult can continue to extract all the money they want to from their "whales", but this kind of shyte has GOT to be exposed and stopped!

The abuse of the mentally incapacitated ranks right down there alongside child abuse. :angry:
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
"but shit when I first went to the farm the then helpers were being totally amused and were, what appeared to me, being entertained by her state, she was naked and locked up like a caged animal."

This is awful, just awful.

Please, please continue to expose this type of abuse on this thread and anywhere else you can. In my opinion, the cult can continue to extract all the money they want to from their "whales", but this kind of shyte has GOT to be exposed and stopped!

The abuse of the mentally incapacitated ranks right down there alongside child abuse. :angry:

Being forcibly imprisoned goes WELL into "Felony Kidnapping". In the US, NOBODY is allowed to be held against their will except by determination of a court of law that they are a danger to themselves or others, or VERY temporarily by others pending arrival of police to take over custody.

However highly a C/S or MAA thinks of their authority, in the eyes of the government they have EXACTLY NO authority to hold ANYBODY against their will. Everyone involved in keeping a woman naked in a cage is liable for being locked in a cage themselves, in their local prison.

In most states, the person who they are holding captive has the legal right to use whatever level of force is needed to get free, including lethal force.

ADDING: I hadn't see the original post, about this happening in Australia. I would imagine the laws there would also take a dim view of holding people captive.
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
This is what Lisa MacPherson had gone through,
A process to take out her dignity, human rights, freedom, sanity, health , relations with fellow, right to get medical care, hope for recovery, hope to get out of hell, hope to be understood and to cummunicate....
Everything people would never let anyone to do to a cat, but agree for the CO$ order it ...:unsure:

It is called the introspection rundown
and is run by CSes, auditors, OSA on people, and involving guards and family consent, to hide no matter it can kill them or drive them in deep suicidal psychosis. It is a process written on Ron Hubbard $cientology policies to adress such need of medical attention.


Lisa MacPherson
Introspection Rundown

This is so banal and common that when you will go to Flag Landbase, soon or later, upon arriving you will be expected (It's a policy) to sign the Lisa waiver, which in fact, is a resignation to all your rights to medical care and to get helped, in case you encounter a mental breakdown.

No one will be allow to help you and get you out of hell!
You will be put in isolation, left alone, locked in a small room guarded.

Think about that! It may be a deadly issue!
Why a Church would have people sign such piece of human rights waiver???
Don't expect they will warn you before you get there!

Introspe.jpg


Full text version here
Please print it, read it,
consult a lawyer to ask for his take on it
and never let anyone go to flag without being aware of it


To be printed


http://jeta.home.xs4all.nl/scn/scans/Files.txt
 
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Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
What happens to some of the long time 'out' activists who go off the grid - can that be considered a product of scno - going type 3, long after the fact, PTSD - or something like that?

:hankie::ohmy::unsure::confused2:
 

catarina

PTS Type III
What happens to some of the long time 'out' activists who go off the grid - can that be considered a product of scno - going type 3, long after the fact, PTSD - or something like that?

:hankie::ohmy::unsure::confused2:

Difficult to say unless you have the hard numbers - people go nuts all the time for all sorts of reasons. You would need to compare a reasonably large group of ex'es with a similar group of people who were never in, and see if there is any difference in how frequently and seriously they become ill.

One thing I can say anecdotally is that none of my several crazy friends without a scn background are very much of what might be called conspiracy freaks, while that seems to be a frequent theme among ex'es. Not strange perhaps, when you used to belong to a group that actually used various black ops in the real world, plus taught a paranoid world view. Even when you go crazy, you interpret stuff according to your background. Kind of like if I was walking in the forest and saw something weird, I might think it was a UFO, while a 15th century man would have thought it was a troll.
 

eldritch cuckoo

brainslugged reptilian
What happens to some of the long time 'out' activists who go off the grid - can that be considered a product of scno - going type 3, long after the fact, PTSD - or something like that?

:hankie::ohmy::unsure::confused2:

Difficult to say unless you have the hard numbers - people go nuts all the time for all sorts of reasons. You would need to compare a reasonably large group of ex'es with a similar group of people who were never in, and see if there is any difference in how frequently and seriously they become ill.

Strictly spoken, there's still a flaw in the statistics (experimental setting), and a huge one - people are prone for certain psychiatric issues, and these might break out or get more severe ... or not. Psychiatric issues (of all sorts) can be triggered, by single incidents or stressful periods - causing burnout and more. (Just as I had anxiety problems "triggered" by periods of stress and insecurity. Some of the anxieties were directly related to the situation ... but others decidedly weren't. I was aware of that, but that didn't really help. :coolwink: )
Let's look at a really good trigger for schizophrenia: cannabis. Somebody gets schizophrenia because of taking cannabis. Or did they? Wouldn't they have gotten it anyways? In the end, it's a numbers game, and a science of reading and sorting the statistics. A person is considered prone to schizophrenia because the family history indicates that much, the involved genes aren't yet known. This person then takes a lot of cannabis - which effect practically makes the brain to simulate schizophrenia, free floating associations, inducing delusional thinking. After a while, probably after the drug already has been stopped, the person gets schizophrenia, real psychotic breaks and returning episodes (if they won't take meds). BUT, here's the problem: 1) That person would probably have gotten schizophrenia anyways after the first traumatic incident or stressful time in their life, e.g. got sick just a bit earlier because the drug literally "trained" their brain to be schizophrenic. OR 2) that person got more severe schizophrenia because of the drug - together with some other problems, e.g. all making the confusion more deep settled, more difficult to untangle, the paranoia deeper (nothing like a horrortrip to let paranoia dig in :melodramatic: ), and prolonging the recovery phase after remission - characterized by feeling depressed, worn out, insecure, mildly confused. :p
But ofcourse there are many people that are taking lots of cannabis, and never getting schizophrenia. :p
And vice versa, there are a lot of people who get schizophrenia but have never touched any drug. :p
Statistics is a bitchy Goddess... :p :p :p


People's experiences in Co$, be it as public or staff or SO, were, ofcourse, quite different, I acknowledge that. For many, it couldn't be called horrific or even "traumatic", and they left for another reason than "I can't bear it anymore". Aside from genuine disinterest or disappointment, it might have been financial issues, or being "declared", - they might have been kicked out for some mysterious reason.
I suppose it's fair to say that any lengthy AND stressful period in this psychotic cult will work as a trigger to worsen one's mental condition.

Whether people get anxious (a state of generalized insecurity and nervosity), or paranoid, or hateful, or distrustful (regarding people), or psychotic, depends on one's experiences and on the personality itself.
Co$ (and the more radical Indies) provides a special environment and pseudo society, a subculture, in which one is emerged (to differing degrees), an essentially sick environment that glorifies and encourages sociopathic and schizophrenic personality traits. The details of this are depending on one's processings and also on their job when being a staff member.
Some are "stuck" on some level or with certain aspects of cult nuttiness, which causes friction. That combination creates a time bomb.

For example, Mockingbird seemed to be particularly "terrorized" by study technology and seemed to be "stuck" with it a lot, apparently because he took it so serious, and (seemingly, I don't know) because the kind of processing, courses he did, afforded considerable amounts of it. Some other people, in comparison, "got over" with their study tech experiences, passing them swiftly and finding no "MUs" or ignoring them at some point to be able to walk out of that room without losing their money and "eternity".
Many didn't take clay demos serious, but some worked days on one clay demo, and I suppose they got somewhat stressed and neurotic over it, especially if that experience was repeated.
Some people fast-forwarded their tapes (I've read what you did there... :coolwink: ), others, feeling more serious and obliged, wouldn't ever have done such a thing, instead they would probably haggle with every word of Hubbard's ramblings, and desperately trying to make sense of it, and experiencing a lot of stress about that, and being stuck in auditing, and getting sec checked, etc etc.
Many lived for years in shabby SO quarters with stacked bunk beds and many people in a room, and experienced all sorts of stress and social problems over these conditions, from an experienced lack of privacy to other problems, while what Paul wrote seemed to indicate that for him this particular aspect was no all too humiliating or extremely stressful experience, as he never "needed much to be lucky", if I may say so.

It is likely that any prolonged (bad) time in Co$ (or amongst particularly nuts Indies) will worsen a case of borderline personality and their characteristic problems, such as it will worsen a case of a personality prone to the schizophrenia/psychosis/paranoia cluster, and it likely will also worsen the problems of a person generally prone to anxiety issues and insecurity; and so on. That doesn't mean that TRs don't occasionally help one with their shyness or that auditing doesn't sometime help one to sort issues in their past, but IN SUM, Co$ usually makes things worse, I hope we can agree on that.
The same stands for a long time of fighting Co$.
It's all about how the experience was perceived, personally.

As we furthermore see, the behavior of some people leaving after decades of intense involvement shows a considerable unfamiliarity with social norms, the symptoms come close to mild cases of Asperger autism. This but is only an appearance and temporal, caused by their estrangement from society and "wog" rules of communication. I've seen some of what I've seen here before, but from people who WERE autistic. Nonetheless the familiarities are remarkable. :) So, please... be a bit patient with these cases. If you SEE change happening, and I DO see it, in small steps... can't we wait a bit?

Regarding psychosis: if a person at a certain age only shows mild symptoms that but are slowly increasing, one can conclude that with great likelyhood this person will never have a full-blown "psychotic break" or severe, suddenly set-on (and vanishing) episodes - unless there are extreme triggers present.
We will see whether the extreme disappointment and grudge about the fact that things went quite different than probably envisioned for decades, and that there are different names in the headlines around the final days of the cult than imagined (namely Tony, Mike, Marty, Tory, Karen, Chris, Lawrence Wright, Alex Gibney,...), will work as such a trigger.
I don't expect it,... but when it happens, we should know why.
Just that, then I'm gone again from this thread: I've seen it coming as far as it HAS already happened. :wink2:
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
For onset of schizophrenia and genetics, there was a study of identical twins and it was only 31% coincidence.
(I don't know what the statistical sample rate was.)
If the study was valid then we can't conclude that genetics is nearly as large a factor as has been touted.
We don't know yet (aside from MSM articles on this topic).
 

eldritch cuckoo

brainslugged reptilian
For onset of schizophrenia and genetics, there was a study of identical twins and it was only 31% coincidence.
(I don't know what the statistical sample rate was.)
If the study was valid then we can't conclude that genetics is nearly as large a factor as has been touted.
We don't know yet (aside from MSM articles on this topic).

For the sake of argument: it depends on whether they counted in ALL disorders of the schizophrenic type, - for example, "stable" (e.g. slowly advancing) personality disorders (hebephrenia - disorganized personality and often hobo, schizotypic personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder,...), people with quickly evolving paranoid-delusional episodes (thread title?), schizoaffective disorders (delusions and paranoia mixed with borderline type emotional problems, strongly fluctuating), stable amount of delusional thinking without paranoia (extreme eccentricity with, for example, odd manner of speaking, affected behavior, Esoteric nutcase...), etc... It doesn't exactly help that the criteria are not clearly defined and merging into each other, with several concurring classification systems, e.g. systems used in parallel, with the classification of some disorders to some degree still of "experimental" character. These are the ones we barely know and usually perceive as "new" or, wrongly, as "fad" - yet wrong is only the subsequent "label hunting" by lay persons, that usually sets on at the point the information gets to them... The diagnosis criteria are sometimes insofar more experimental than, say, the criteria of the classic "psychotic break", a temporal state of complete paranoid delusion, of which there are many clear cases, while there are fewer cases of the new "label" that have been thoroughly researched, which but doesn't mean that there are few - or that there are more than in the past. But the criteria may change again, if the label doesn't work well.
The diagnosis of cases where symptoms of this and that disorder are present, is accordingly difficult and often a person will get one schizo-something diagnosis from one doctor and one schizo-something diagnosis from another... but both doctors would often agree that the problem is located (and to be treated) within the range of schizophrenic disorders.
In a way, a study about the genetics of schizophrenia that wants to circumvent that problem, can do that if counting ALL of these disorders ... so that may explain some results that are higher. If they, as some studies do, counted in all close relatives with one or more of these disorders, still calculated against a randomly selected group, then the genetic factor is likely higher than "31%"... with that particular study. "It's logical, Jim." :p
 
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JustSheila

Crusader
Strictly spoken, there's still a flaw in the statistics (experimental setting), and a huge one - people are prone for certain psychiatric issues, and these might break out or get more severe ... or not. Psychiatric issues (of all sorts) can be triggered, by single incidents or stressful periods - causing burnout and more. (Just as I had anxiety problems "triggered" by periods of stress and insecurity. Some of the anxieties were directly related to the situation ... but others decidedly weren't. I was aware of that, but that didn't really help. :coolwink: )
Let's look at a really good trigger for schizophrenia: cannabis.<snip>...

Statistics is a bitchy Goddess... :p :p :p

All valid points, Eldritch, except as ProgrammerGuy mentioned, the genetic factor of schizophrenia has been found to be far less than was previously believed.

I happen to absolutely love psych and soc statistics - guess I missed my calling as a researcher. :coolwink:

It is all about how you frame the question and reference it. What you see as the flaw, is actually already a nearly ideal experimental environment (in a scientific sense ONLY) because it is so controlled. Scientologists are completely isolated from drugs and other worldly influences beyond Scientology that would otherwise affect them. (Narconon claims this, though our reports say otherwise)

We also know that according to Scientology's own clearances, checks and claims, those going into it did not previously have extensive psychiatric treatment or a number of other influences, and if they had a drug problem, Scientology claimed emphatically that they resolved it.

So we start with a relatively clean slate or they are not accepted for auditing - and certainly not staff positions - at all. Or so COS claims. But what other starting point of reference do we have than Scientology's own A-J and Security checks and other clearances? They're extensive - and eliminate most of those who would have a known situation in their lives that could trigger a mental breakdown. COS avoids the known high-risk clients and yet it still has an extensive number of psychotic breaks.

Why not use raw societal numbers against the Scientology numbers? And out of curiosity, eliminate the percentage of those who had psychotic breaks but had: previous mental institution history, had drug-related psychotic breaks, or any of the other factors not acceptable by COS for one to actively receive Scientology services? Those are the high risk people - and when they are eliminated, that makes a huge difference.

Surely we would find a much higher percentage of psychotic breaks in the Scientologists, despite the fact they would otherwise be a low-risk group. And a ridiculously high percentage compared to society's numbers if eliminating the high risk cases (as Scientology has).
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
The 31% figure was presented in a YouTube presentation by a supposed professional researcher on this topic.
I am sorry that I didn't save the URL of the presentation so that I could post it here.

I will try to find it again BUT no promises.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The professional stuff that is posted on the internet says that schizophrenia has a genetic vulnerability and then a trigger that sets it off. They say that BOTH have to happen (e.g. not just street drug use for one example).

But then, one would expect identical twins, in the same family and environment, to have a very HIGH coincidence.
If it is only 31% then it makes me wonder about this.
 
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eldritch cuckoo

brainslugged reptilian
All valid points, Eldritch, except as ProgrammerGuy mentioned, the genetic factor of schizophrenia has been found to be far less than was previously believed.

Well, see my post above, meanwhile edited. I think it's a question of interpretation of the results because the goal has shifted... as they tend to consider ALL schizophrenic disorders related, regarding their genetic triggers, their biochemistry, and so they tend to count ALL of them in when "researching causes for schizophrenia"...


Surely we would find a much higher percentage of psychotic breaks in the Scientologists, despite the fact they would otherwise be a low-risk group. And a ridiculously high percentage compared to society's numbers if eliminating the high risk cases (as Scientology has).

Oh I wasn't denying that, in no way. People are getting problems with psychosis from involvement with Co$, short term and long term. I merely tried to point out some basic facts for lay people... which I am, strictly spoken, myself, but it happens that I've read a lot (textbooks I mean). I think cannabis as a trigger (for the same sickness ... or close related issues) versus one's natural risk is just a good example to show up the problems involved with interpreting results, and to compare good versus bad "experimental setting". This was generalized information about science theory, no more. Also, many people (particularly from the "68s") have consumed cannabis at last once and so tend to understand how it "emulates", and therefore (if taken often) triggers psychosis - while not everybody had incredibly stressful experiences in an evil cult. :coolwink:

Go play with the numbers. :drama: Despite having read all of this thread, I'm sure exes still have a better picture of how many "psychotic breaks" there are and were in Co$ (and some Indie groups, let's not forget them) - and how many people didn't get psychological problems of that kind - if but maybe of another kind, similarly severe ... burnout, PTSD, lasting anxiety, neuroses, etc. :p
 
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