How we’ve helped people *see*.

Carmel

Crusader
I just read a post on another thread that’s prompted me to write this post.

I introduced a lot of people to Scientology, a couple of hundred or so. I did that because I believed in it, because I thought they would benefit from it, and because throughout my time in Scn I was always meeting new people so I was in a position where I *could*, and it was easy.

When I got on the net and realised the scoop on the scam, I *teamed up* with Feral to do what I could do to help people *see* and get out of the trap. As it was, Feral and I had FSM’d more *new* people into Scn than anyone else in ANZO had. We knew just about all of the Sydney field, and just about all in the Sydney field knew either one of us or both of us.

We did a lot of things to contact one and all (which I’ve already outlined in another thread), but I want to clarify what I believe impinged on those Scientologists we spoke/wrote to.

Early on, we were contacting our old mates/selectees. Soon afterwards (when OSA had already started “black PRing” us), people were contacting us rather than us contacting them. I can’t say that it was all good, because it wasn’t. Sometimes there was lots of aggression, and there were lots of tears. However, mostly, it all ended up ok, and *so many* ended up looking, seeing, and getting out because of our encouragement (maybe influence) with them. It was a pretty trying time, and I (along with Feral I think) am thankful to Panda for support over that period.

FWIW, I NEVER challenged these people in regard to the workability of the tech, their beliefs, or LRH - NEVER. I just didn’t go there. I know that *I* benefited from the time and space to go there myself, and I wasn’t going to deny that to those I cared about. Besides, my intent with these people wasn’t to get them to see things the way I saw them, but more to encourage them to take the leap needed to see what was in front of their face, and the leap needed to bust free.

It was different with everyone I spoke to, but the following is an example of how it went with a few of the hundred or so who I spoke to directly, who subsequently started looking and got out...........

Scio: “WTF are you doing?” or “how could you be posting on the net?” or “I can’t believe you’ve gone to the dark side”

Me: “I’m doing what I always fucking did, I’m telling it how I see it.”

Scio: “How could attack Scn and the Church? How can you now attack all that you’ve been advocating for years?”

Me: “I’m not attacking all that I’ve been advocating. I’m attacking management and that aspect of Scn which is against and *counter* to everything I have always advocated.”

Scio: “You’re antagonistic to Scn and attacking the Church, we’ll have to leave it there”.

Me: “Wait up, you’re supposed to be the scientologist here, aren’t you? Why would you not communicate with me about this so you can at least understand where I’m coming from? Ya don’t have to agree with me, but isn’t this a situation where you should apply some ARC? Let's communicate so you can at least understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree, so then we can go our separate ways or not, depending on what we decide after we have the full picture.”

Scio: (silence)

Me: “Back up a little, go back........Why did I introduce you to Scientology? (or reg you, or recover you) What was I advocating then? Tell me! What was it that I was telling you Scn could give you or why was I so hell bent on you going forward with Scn.”

Scio: (they’d give the reason)

Me: “Are you getting that now, are you getting what I wanted you to get, or what you thought you'd get? Or, more to the point, are you being denied that now? Are the tenets of Scn which I was pushing and advocating, being practiced or even permitted within the ranks of the CofS? I encouraged you to do Scn because of .....yadda, yadda, yadda (basic tenets of Scn)....but are you applying or permitted to apply those tenets?”

Scio: (quiet)

Me: “Don’t you ask *yourself* wtf is going on? Do you not see things in direct violation of what you thought Scn was about and what was promised?”

Me: “What about KSW 1 - 10? Who is source now, LRH or DM? What about responsibility on four flows...since when does only one of the four flows count?”

Me: Don’t ya cop the condition that you don’t assign?

Me: You say I’m an anti scientologist now......of the two of us, who is the one applying the most “tech” here?

Etc, etc, etc.

It was different with everyone I spoke to, but, there was a common thread. I maintained that I stayed on track, and it was them who went off track or who got suckered into a bait and switch. I didn’t spend much time talking to anyone who wasn’t someone I very much cared about. I gave them food for thought, then gave them links to threads here on ESMB and other sites, where they could look and see for themselves.

Shredder here will tell ya (when she gets the internet on in her new abode in about a week) that when I spoke to her, I spoke about nothing except what we thought or wanted Scn to be, WASN’T SO in practice. I told her that I thought there was a reason for that, and that she should look at what that might be. I gave her links to various threads and info. Then she and Doom spent the whole weekend looking, and *found*. After the weekend, Shredder called me back and queried me about stuff she’d found and read on LRH. She was somewhat shell-shocked (understandably), so I didn’t *rub it in* or confirm in concrete.....I just said “yep, it would seem so....the more ya look at all this, the more you’ll understand it, but just take your time, and don’t rush into making conclusions.” I said to her that if she just kept her eyes open to everything and anything from varying perspectives (without trying to draw conclusions), that she would then get to a place where it would all make sense. I told her that chances are it would be a horrible ride and that I could only suggest that she hang on for dear life until it finished or got easier. I told her that every former scio I knew had gone through it, and that she could call on us or lean on us whenever she needed to.

Anyways, point of post - People got into scn and have ended up supporting it, despite the fact that it is in conflict with why they got involved in it in the first place. Most didn’t get involved to become trapped in what they are trapped in now. If ya point that out, and/or get them to look at that, it’ll help.......Pointing out other stuff either doesn’t help or makes it worse, IMO.


Scios these days have a lot right in their face, and continually. Use that which they see to get them to take the leap to look further....If you encourage them to look (without alienating them by inundating them with all the info you have), then they will have a chance to see and take the steps that they need to, to bust out.
 
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Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
More Good Stuff From Carmel

I just read a post on another thread that’s prompted me to write this post.

I introduced a lot of people to Scientology, a couple of hundred or so. I did that because I believed in it, because I thought they would benefit from it, and because throughout my time in Scn I was always meeting new people so I was in a position where I *could*, and it was easy.

When I got on the net and realised the scoop on the scam, I *teamed up* with Feral to do what I could do to help people *see* and get out of the trap. As it was, Feral and I had FSM’d more *new* people into Scn than anyone else in ANZO had. We knew just about all of the Sydney field, and just about all in the Sydney field knew either one of us or both of us.

We did a lot of things to contact one and all (which I’ve already outlined in another thread), but I want to clarify what I believe impinged on those Scientologists we spoke/wrote to.

Early on, we were contacting our old mates/selectees. Soon afterwards (when OSA had already started “black PRing” us), people were contacting us rather than us contacting them. I can’t say that it was all good, because it wasn’t. Sometimes there was lots of aggression, and there were lots of tears. However, mostly, it all ended up ok, and *so many* ended up looking, seeing, and getting out because of our encouragement (maybe influence) with them. It was a pretty trying time, and I (along with Feral I think) am thankful to Panda for support over that period.

FWIW, I NEVER challenged these people in regard to the workability of the tech, their beliefs, or LRH - NEVER. I just didn’t go there. I know that *I* benefited from the time and space to go there myself, and I wasn’t going to deny that to those I cared about. Besides, my intent with these people wasn’t to get them to see things the way I saw them, but more to encourage them to take the leap needed to see what was in front of their face, and the leap needed to bust free.

It was different with everyone I spoke to, but the following is an example of how it went with a few of the hundred or so who I spoke to directly, who subsequently started looking and got out...........

Scio: “WTF are you doing?” or “how could you be posting on the net?” or “I can’t believe you’ve gone to the dark side”

Me: “I’m doing what I always fucking did, I’m telling it how I see it.”

Scio: “How could attack Scn and the Church? How can you now attack all that you’ve been advocating for years?”

Me: “I’m not attacking all that I’ve been advocating. I’m attacking management and that aspect of Scn which is against and *counter* to everything I have always advocated.”

Scio: “You’re antagonistic to Scn and attacking the Church, we’ll have to leave it there”.

Me: “Wait up, you’re supposed to be the scientologist here, aren’t you? Why would you not communicate with me about this so you can at least understand where I’m coming from? Ya don’t have to agree with me, but isn’t this a situation where you should apply some ARC? Let's communicate so you can at least understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree, so then we can go our separate ways or not, depending on what we decide after we have the full picture.”

Scio: (silence)

Me: “Back up a little, go back........Why did I introduce you to Scientology? (or reg you, or recover you) What was I advocating then? Tell me! What was it that I was telling you Scn could give you or why was I so hell bent on you going forward with Scn.”
Scio: (they’d give the reason)

Me: “Are you getting that now, are you getting what I wanted you to get, or what you thought you'd get? Or, more to the point, are you being denied that now? Are the tenets of Scn which I was pushing and advocating, being practiced or even permitted within the ranks of the CofS? I encouraged you to do Scn because of .....yadda, yadda, yadda (basic tenets of Scn)....but are you applying or permitted to apply those tenets?”

Scio: (quiet)

Me: “Don’t you ask *yourself* wtf is going on? Do you not see things in direct violation of what you thought Scn was about and what was promised?”

Me: “What about KSW 1 - 10? Who is source now, LRH or DM? What about responsibility on four flows...since when does only one of the four flows count?”

Me: Don’t ya cop the condition that you don’t assign?

Me: You say I’m an anti scientologist now......of the two of us, who is the one applying the most “tech” here?

Etc, etc, etc.

It was different with everyone I spoke to, but, there was a common thread. I maintained that I stayed on track, and it was them who went off track or who got suckered into a bait and switch. I didn’t spend much time talking to anyone who wasn’t someone I very much cared about. I gave them food for thought, then gave them links to threads here on ESMB and other sites, where they could look and see for themselves.

Shredder here will tell ya (when she gets the internet on in her new abode in about a week) that when I spoke to her, I spoke about nothing except what we thought or wanted Scn to be, WASN’T SO in practice. I told her that I thought there was a reason for that, and that she should look at what that might be. I gave her links to various threads and info. Then she and Doom spent the whole weekend looking, and *found*. After the weekend, Shredder called me back and queried me about stuff she’d found and read on LRH. She was somewhat shell-shocked (understandably), so I didn’t *rub it in* or confirm in concrete.....I just said “yep, it would seem so....the more ya look at all this, the more you’ll understand it, but just take your time, and don’t rush into making conclusions.” I said to her that if she just kept her eyes open to everything and anything from varying perspectives (without trying to draw conclusions), that she would then get to a place where it would all make sense. I told her that chances are it would be a horrible ride and that I could only suggest that she hang for dear life until it finished or got easier. I told her that every former scio I knew had gone through it, and that she could call on us or lean on us whenever she needed to.

Anyways, point of post - People got into scn and have ended up supporting it, despite the fact that it is in conflict with why they got involved in it in the first place. Most didn’t get involved to become trapped in what they are trapped in now. If ya point that out, and/or get them to look at that, it’ll help.......Pointing out other stuff either doesn’t help or makes it worse, IMO.


Scios these days have a lot right in their face, and continually. Use that which they see to get them to take the leap to look further....If you encourage them to look (without alienating them by inundating them with all the info you have), then they will have a chance to see and take the steps that they need to, to bust out.



Very nicely done on granting of beingness and rehabilitation of puposes.
:thumbsup:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Brilliant Post! Really outstanding!

Carm rocks the house!

There is a core level of truth and understanding in how you spoke to all those friends of yours that transcends petty quibbling over minor side issues.

Isn't there a titanium plate and a mountain somewhere we can put this post into for safekeeping? :D
 
Very nicely done on granting of beingness and rehabilitation of puposes.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:

Carmel, I'm in complete agreement with Ted on this. You are doing a fantastic job. Your "script" is an excellent basis for others to pursue just such rescue efforts.

Why not get a video presentation up of yourself raising these points on youtube? It might help as a "force multiplier". :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker
 

freethinker

Sponsor
That's an excellant idea.

An "Are you getting what you got into Scientology for?" video
:thumbsup:

Carmel, I'm in complete agreement with Ted on this. You are doing a fantastic job. Your "script" is an excellent basis for others to pursue just such rescue efforts.

Why not get a video presentation up of yourself raising these points on youtube? It might help as a "force multiplier". :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
:thumbsup:

Carmel, I'm in complete agreement with Ted on this. You are doing a fantastic job. Your "script" is an excellent basis for others to pursue just such rescue efforts.

Why not get a video presentation up of yourself raising these points on youtube? It might help as a "force multiplier". :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker


Oh, yeah! That it would!
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I remember when Carmel Underwood used to be afraid to write posts on ESMB.

That was a long time ago!

Great post, Carmel.

Excellent!
 

AWOL

Patron
Its tricky.

Scios these days have a lot right in their face, and continually. Use that which they see to get them to take the leap to look further....If you encourage them to look (without alienating them by inundating them with all the info you have), then they will have a chance to see and take the steps that they need to, to bust out.

Hi Carmel,

Scn has got it all worked out.

1. Surround a person with Scn as much as possible to prevent an open mind.

2. Anything against Scn is evil and the reasons why this is.

3. To not allow any external ( non-Scn) influence to get to the Scion.

4. Any problems with not adhearing to the goals of Scn are your own fault.

5. Punishments not keeping with these goals include, beans and rice every mealtime, longer working hours, RPF, expensive Sec checks/ ethics actions , disconnection , more debts, ostracism, privileges cancelled.

6. All time and money should go to Scn and its goals.

7. Create a clever and unknowing trap to stop people leaving.


To get an avid supporter of Scn to look out is difficult, but as you have shown, it can be done!

I'm still not sure how to get my Scn friends to look and see without them thinking straight away that I am a suppressive person and anything I say or do is because of my crimes and should be discarded.

I don't expect to change a Scion's mind if he/she believes in it so much but they shouldn't be allowed to push other people into believing it to the degree that they will part with large sums of money to come onboard.

I was pushed so much to give money to the IAS, I hated it, being put under pressure even by my "friends"! I told them that alot of Scn goals aren't real to me, its not true for me so I don't want to give you thousands of pounds. It didn't matter to them that it wasn't real to me, they just wanted that money. They even had the cheek to say, straight after a big donation, we'll get you to the next status ( £8000+) in a few months! Talk about invalidating the huge, problem for me donation I had just given to them, the bastards!!

Scn cost me about £25,000, getting £15,000 back. Still, I lost £10,000 though and 12 years of mostly confusion and unhappiness.

So I would like to get my Scn friends to at least look but......



You have to be clever to undo a clever trap!
 
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Carmel

Crusader
Thanks, folks. :)

Today the following was addressed to Kev (Feral) on another thread.

When you and Carmel got people out of the C of S, that is all you did. You did not get them out of Scientology. You got them out of the Church, not Scientology.

Nah, we didn't get them out of anything, and SERIOUSLY, to "get them out of" the Church or Scientology *wasn't* actually my objective.

My main objective was to fix up my fuck up. I had unknowingly led or contributed to leading so many down the garden path (I had been led there myself). Through the wonders of the net and what I believe to be good fortune, I got to see the deceit, the turd that was propping up the raisins, and the solid wall that had me trapped started to fall. Without certain info, friends here, support and food for thought, that wouldn't have occurred.

Prior to finding the net in the '90's and '00's, I wanted answers but I didn't know where to look for them or that they were available for the taking. I didn't feel good but I didn't believe that I ever could. If only somebody had said, "Hey, check this out". I didn't need anyone to get me out of anything. I did though need help or direction on where to look and I didn't get it. When I found the net and things fell into place, *I* chose to cut all remaining ties with the Church. I continued to follow my nose and over time I got a different perspective on what Scn was. I could finally see that something I had locked in so tightly wasn't what I thought it was and I let it go.

All our individual experiences in Scn were different. It's not black and white. Where people end up sitting in regard to Scn is NOT my concern. At the end of the day, people can believe what they want to believe and I don't have a desire to have influence over that. However, when it comes to a well camouflaged deceit (which I contributed to), where people are falling prey to something they are blinded to, then I do have a desire to get them to see that. Given the opportunity I would help them to see it by encouraging them to look, and to look in a certain direction.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink. I wouldn't even try to force it. If it was a smart horse, it'd just lap up the water and keeping drinking, but that'd be *his* job.

I didn't get anyone out of the Church or out of Scn.........They got themselves "out". I don't like it when people force their opinions on me and try and tell me what I should think, so I try to avoid doing that to others. That doesn't mean though that I wouldn't encourage them to look, give them some tips on where to look, and support them while doing so.

For the record, most who I have had dealings with over this matter, *have* gotten out of Scientology, but not "out of" the Church yet (although they do see the Church for what it is). Until they have openly cut ties with the Church, they aren't "out of it", IMO, and the vast majority still have that scenario.
 

Opter

Silver Meritorious Patron
Carmel

Great post.:thumbsup::yes:

Both you and Feral, did a great job of letting people see for themselves some of the truth about the cult and then decide to leave it.

Shortly, after I left Scio,I tried to tell a Scio friend some facts about LRH and I haven't seen her since. I realized,there and then, that I approached the subject
the wrong way and she just shut her mind and could not hear any negative data about man's greatest friend:no:=LRH.

Opter
 

Cherished

Silver Meritorious Patron
:thumbsup:

Carmel, I'm in complete agreement with Ted on this. You are doing a fantastic job. Your "script" is an excellent basis for others to pursue just such rescue efforts.

Why not get a video presentation up of yourself raising these points on youtube? It might help as a "force multiplier". :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker

Carmel just LOVES being in front of the camera. ;)

Good job, C. You've been a good friend to people, to help them access the information and the support, but not try to control what they do with it. That's respecting the person.

<3
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Originally posted by Carmel.

snipped ...

All our individual experiences in Scn were different. It's not black and white. Where people end up sitting in regard to Scn is NOT my concern. At the end of the day, people can believe what they want to believe and I don't have a desire to have influence over that. However, when it comes to a well camouflaged deceit (which I contributed to), where people are falling prey to something they are blinded to, then I do have a desire to get them to see that. Given the opportunity I would help them to see it by encouraging them to look, and to look in a certain direction.


This is a great thread Carmel ...

:yes:
 

byte301

Crusader
Carmel, you've inspired me. Thank you.

I believe that your approach is better then trying to ram it down someone's throat. Your success proves it.

I honestly don't care what people believe as long as they are believing it with freewill and aren't hurting anyone else with those beliefs.

So someone trying to demean what you and Feral have done isn't resonating with me at all.

Just keep on keepin on, Carmel. You and Feral have done what most of us just dream about.:yes:
 

FlunkedForLaughing

Patron with Honors
Great post Carmel. :thumbsup:

My experience with trying to talk with a Scientologist didn't go so well. It was like:

ME: Blah, blah, blah, internet, scam, blackmail, abuse, fraud, lies, cult, brainwashing, altered tech, lots of people leaving.

HER: Well, were you there? Did it happen to you? Did you see these terrible things yourself? Do you personally know these people who claim these things? Did you write it up? Do you really believe everything you read on the internet? How do you know it wasn't just a disgruntled ex-member with an agenda?

ME: more blah, blah, blah.

HER: more LALALALA I'm not listening to you LALALALA

It went on like this for over an hour.

Carmel, I like your approach better. I'll keep it in mind next time I talk with her about it. This is a close family member, so I know the conversation will come up sooner or later.

FFL
 
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